Candidates for Naturalization (Smart Gilas Dev Team)

[Marc51]

I'm watching the Riyadi-Gilas game at the moment. I'm impressed of Milan's post game. I say if Greg continues to improve up 2011 let's just naturalize Milan and play him as 4. Greg as 5, Milan as 4.

I think this is not suitable to Gilas system...As you can see, Toroman prefers small ball because he knows the only way for us to win is to use our speed and outrun the other team...Putting them together on the floor at the same time might backfire to us...It will just slow down our pace...I think Milan-Ballesteros combo is more suitable and then for the back-up, Slaughter-Aguilar tandem...

 

[yogaflame]

I think this is not suitable to Gilas system...As you can see, Toroman prefers small ball because he knows the only way for us to win is to use our speed and outrun the other team...Putting them together on the floor at the same time might backfire to us...It will just slow down our pace...I think Milan-Ballesteros combo is more suitable and then for the back-up, Slaughter-Aguilar tandem...

We have no choice we have a lot of time to train them and i believe Greg can get faster and he has a good work ethic, We just need to try and make him get use to it and be faster

 

[paolylo]

Let me just ask you this, disregarding the age limits, can these Fil-Ams run for president in your country? If no, why not?

Like I said I don't really care what each country does with the naturalization rule because each country is different as have been mentioned. But some people here seem to think you have the "moral high ground" over Qatar is mistaken, IMO. Again, don't think I'm implying anything, I have previously expressed my disgust at Qatar too -- but only because they changed facts (like birth places), not because the choice they make on their representatives.

they can't because they have to be citizens during birth.

we know we're at a disadvantage with our lack of height and black man athleticism. we do claim a "moral high ground" because our Fil-Foreginer players' citizenship operates on a principle that isn't as plunderous as changing facts or paying players to renounce their previous citizenship entirely. all they need to do is to prove if their parents or grandparents were Philippine citizens at one point.

we're not as blessed with a hundred thousand 7-footers or freak athletes as other countries. anyone over 6'6 (1.98m in your language) in this country will surely have a shot at a basketball career whether they suck or not... from being recruited to play in schools, to trying out for an amateur team, to getting drafted by a PBA franchise. heck, anyone who can dunk a basketball might get a chance as well.

it's like your implying that this whole naturalization rule it's unfair because China has never had to get a half-black, half-Chinese player or scout 7-footers from say, Nepal or Mongolia.

 

[pachador]

just to add, taiwan or china can actually get a lot of chinese-american players in the US who are athletic. on average from what i see, the chinese-americans seem to be bigger and taller than fil-americans. Im comparing chinese and filipinoss born or grew up in the US, but only those with no white or black blood.

but as we know china(specially) refuses to get chinese-american players. is this still true?

they can't because they have to be citizens during birth.

we know we're at a disadvantage with our lack of height and black man athleticism. we do claim a "moral high ground" because our Fil-Foreginer players' citizenship operates on a principle that isn't as plunderous as changing facts or paying players to renounce their previous citizenship entirely. all they need to do is to prove if their parents or grandparents were Philippine citizens at one point.

we're not as blessed with a hundred thousand 7-footers or freak athletes as other countries. anyone over 6'6 (1.98m in your language) in this country will surely have a shot at a basketball career whether they suck or not... from being recruited to play in schools, to trying out for an amateur team, to getting drafted by a PBA franchise. heck, anyone who can dunk a basketball might get a chance as well.

it's like your implying that this whole naturalization rule it's unfair because China has never had to get a half-black, half-Chinese player or scout 7-footers from say, Nepal or Mongolia.

 

[Khalid80]

I think to be completely fair, anyone not born in XXX country should be considered a naturalized player. Personally I don't really care so much about this, as long as the competition is good. If Qatar thinks 10 black men makes their country proud so be it. Just like you Filipinos identify with Fil-Ams etc.

I agree with you in general Sinobball, but u should note for example that we had an ongoing civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1990 so many Lebanese left their home countries during that time.
For example Ali Mahmoud was born in Canada but we can't deny that he's not Lebanese even though he has both the Lebanese and Canadian nationalities.
This case can be mentioned for some other players on our NT as well.

 

[daniab]

I think to be completely fair, anyone not born in XXX country should be considered a naturalized player. Personally I don't really care so much about this, as long as the competition is good. If Qatar thinks 10 black men makes their country proud so be it. Just like you Filipinos identify with Fil-Ams etc.

I did not expect this from you , so if i am born outside the country but from Lebanese parents then im qualified as naturalized?
a lot of you lack knowledge abt Lebanon and Philippines as well and their situations , that's why you can't talk unless you search and know the reasons for our recruiting from outside.

We as 4 millions populations are facing 2 giant countries like Iran (60 millions) and China (1 billion) , i think we deserve to use our diaspora.

 

[sinobball]

I did not expect this from you , so if i am born outside the country but from Lebanese parents then im qualified as naturalized?

You think I was unaware of the Lebanese situation? I've already said different countries have different ways of doing it, and I don't personally care too much about this. But to answer your question, YES THE HYPOTHETICAL YOU (or Ali Mahmoud etc. etc.) SHOULD BE considered as a naturalized national of Lebanon. Naturalization means you claim citizenship of the country YOU WERE NOT BORN IN. FIBA's definition is different, I know, which is why I said "should".

Let me explain my position one more time using examples... What exactly makes

A) Mike Pennisi (born in Australia) => Filipino citizen (not considered naturalization)

different from

B) Tanguy Ngombo (born in Congo) ==> Qatari Citizen (should be considered naturalization??)

The only true difference is the word "proof of descent". I understand Philippines has a stringent process in place to check that. But how do outsiders know? We're talking about international sports, where cheating is commonplace. Again, I'm not saying Lebanon or Philippines cheated. I'm just saying FIBA's definition of "naturalization" to allow "people of XXX descent" to pass as "XXX nationals" is absolutely flawed. Qatar can claim Ngombo is of Qatari descent. What proof do you have that he isn't? Well you can say he looks nothing like a "typical Qatari" but does Pennisi look like a "typical Filipino"? Even if we are not talking about sports, there are Fil-Shams as the Filipinos here know, i.e. papers can be forged, and when that happens (a Fil-Sham gets put in the Filipino NT), it's not only unfair to the Filipino people but also unfair to the other teams.

Also have been mentioned is that RP is not paying these Fil-foreigners like Qatar. Firstly I don't know if anyone has (or will ever have) proof of this statement about either country. Secondly if there is no PBA chances are many of the Fil-foreigners will not claim Filipino citizenship, so IMO it is still a monetary issue --- even without the PBA, playing for an NT = more exposure and more revenue.

The statement "Because Lebanon is a small country and therefore deserves to use the diaspora" is unfair in the first place. Qatar is an even smaller country does it "deserve to use more imports"? This is not how things should be run in sports.

 

[TrueBluePinoy]

You think I was unaware of the Lebanese situation? I've already said different countries have different ways of doing it, and I don't personally care too much about this. But to answer your question, YES THE HYPOTHETICAL YOU (or Ali Mahmoud etc. etc.) SHOULD BE considered as a naturalized national of Lebanon. Naturalization means you claim citizenship of the country YOU WERE NOT BORN IN. FIBA's definition is different, I know, which is why I said "should".

Let me explain my position one more time using examples... What exactly makes

A) Mike Pennisi (born in Australia) => Filipino citizen (not considered naturalization)

different from

B) Tanguy Ngombo (born in Congo) ==> Qatari Citizen (should be considered naturalization??)

The only true difference is the word "proof of descent". I understand Philippines has a stringent process in place to check that. But how do outsiders know? We're talking about international sports, where cheating is commonplace. Again, I'm not saying Lebanon or Philippines cheated. I'm just saying FIBA's definition of "naturalization" to allow "people of XXX descent" to pass as "XXX nationals" is absolutely flawed. Qatar can claim Ngombo is of Qatari descent. What proof do you have that he isn't? Well you can say he looks nothing like a "typical Qatari" but does Pennisi look like a "typical Filipino"? Even if we are not talking about sports, there are Fil-Shams as the Filipinos here know, i.e. papers can be forged. Also have been mentioned is that RP is not paying these Fil-foreigners like Qatar. Firstly I don't know if anyone has (or will ever have) proof of this statement about either country. Secondly if there is no PBA chances are many of the Fil-foreigners will not claim Filipino citizenship, so IMO it is still a monetary issue --- even without the PBA, playing for an NT = more exposure and more revenue.

I'm getting what you're saying. So if a Filipino-foreigner's motivation of recognizing his Filipino descent is due to monetary compensation and financial security instead of trying to learn and experience the culture of his roots, then he's no different from a paid mercenary, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Alex07]

following the rules not cheating,fabricating the proof would be

following the rules not cheating,fabricating the proof would be

You think I was unaware of the Lebanese situation? I've already said different countries have different ways of doing it, and I don't personally care too much about this. But to answer your question, YES THE HYPOTHETICAL YOU (or Ali Mahmoud etc. etc.) SHOULD BE considered as a naturalized national of Lebanon. Naturalization means you claim citizenship of the country YOU WERE NOT BORN IN. FIBA's definition is different, I know, which is why I said "should".

Let me explain my position one more time using examples... What exactly makes

A) Mike Pennisi (born in Australia) => Filipino citizen (not considered naturalization)

different from

B) Tanguy Ngombo (born in Congo) ==> Qatari Citizen (should be considered naturalization??)

The only true difference is the word "proof of descent". I understand Philippines has a stringent process in place to check that. But how do outsiders know? We're talking about international sports, where cheating is commonplace. Again, I'm not saying Lebanon or Philippines cheated. I'm just saying FIBA's definition of "naturalization" to allow "people of XXX descent" to pass as "XXX nationals" is absolutely flawed. Qatar can claim Ngombo is of Qatari descent. What proof do you have that he isn't? Well you can say he looks nothing like a "typical Qatari" but does Pennisi look like a "typical Filipino"? Even if we are not talking about sports, there are Fil-Shams as the Filipinos here know, i.e. papers can be forged. Also have been mentioned is that RP is not paying these Fil-foreigners like Qatar. Firstly I don't know if anyone has (or will ever have) proof of this statement about either country. Secondly if there is no PBA chances are many of the Fil-foreigners will not claim Filipino citizenship, so IMO it is still a monetary issue --- even without the PBA, playing for an NT = more exposure and more revenue.

Mick has atleast one parent with Filipino heritage I don't know about that Tanguy Ngombo guy if he has any Qatari heritage.I understand that Fiba allows atleast 1/8 blood to qualify(atleast one of his grandparent) for the national team and I think rules are rules if you complied and you have certain proof that you are indeed qualified then it's not cheating.If the player fabricated any papers showing his lineage then that would be regarded as cheating.Just like some countries cheating with their athlete's ages,I think Fiba should apply a thorough investigation about this matter.

About the naturalization,there are different laws about naturalization in different countries..Fiba should look at this and identify who is naturalized and who is of mixed race.I think Qatar has more than one naturalized player in their team(I might be wrong though).

 

[logre23]

Mick has atleast one parent with Filipino heritage I don't know about that Tanguy Ngombo guy if he has any Qatari heritage.I understand that Fiba allows atleast 1/8 blood to qualify(atleast one of his grandparent) for the national team and I think rules are rules if you complied and you have certain proof that you are indeed qualified then it's not cheating.If the player fabricated any papers showing his lineage then that would be regarded as cheating.Just like some countries cheating with their athlete's ages,I think Fiba should apply a thorough investigation about this matter.

About the naturalization,there are different laws about naturalization in different countries..Fiba should look at this and identify who is naturalized and who is of mixed race.I think Qatar has more than one naturalized player in their team(I might be wrong though).

http://sc.judiciary.gov.ph/publications/benchmark/2010/031004.php

 

[sinobball]

I don't know about that Tanguy Ngombo guy if he has any Qatari heritage.

I was just using a fairly extreme example -- nobody believes it -- but you just admitted that you don't know. In fact how will you know for sure? There's no way to check it. Thus my point.

I think rules are rules if you complied and you have certain proof that you are indeed qualified then it's not cheating.

Trust me Qatar has proofs, whether they are trustworthy is a different issue.

This is my biggest problem with FIBA's definition of naturalization. I think some of you here misunderstand me. If there is no way to check it (other than relying on some documents that are easily falsified) then why make the rules? Everyone knows I'm a huge critic of China's age-cheating practice, but in the end I blame FIBA for having ABSOLUTELY ZERO method to check ages. The naturalization rule is absolutely the same. It's like a teacher handing out closed-book exams to students to take home and trust that they never refer to books

 

[sinobball]

I'm getting what you're saying. So if a Filipino-foreigner's motivation of recognizing his Filipino descent is due to monetary compensation and financial security instead of trying to learn and experience the culture of his roots, then he's no different from a paid mercenary, correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course it's not the same to probably most Fil-foreigners who feel proud of their heritage and roots, but motivation is not basis for rules. I hope you get my points now.

 

[daniab]

Dear Sinoball , when players comes like "Parachutte" to play for a certain NT then i have the right to question his elgibility or not.

For exemple,and if you really follow the Lebanese basketball and i know u are, you would know that Matt Freije has been followed by the Lebanese federation and fans since 2005 and he wasn't paraded on the NT last year like some Chinese reports said.

Still, i did not get your definition of naturalization , when Ali Mahmoud was born in Canada , he claimed in the same time both the Canadian and the Lebanese ID , the same goes to Ali kanaan who claims both the Lebanese and Canadian ID although he was born in South of Lebanon.

u asked " What proof do you have that he isn't?" i do have a lot :

For exemple Lebanon did not change Matt Freije' or Ali Mahmoud birthplace? if you check their profiles , u still can see that both were born either in the United states or Canada and the same goes to Jordan and Philippines.

While in Qatar, they changed the birthplaces like Mustapha El Sayyed who was born in Sudan according to many sources , and then suddendly we notice he was born in Qatar after playing for their NT!
Also Qatar do rely on naturalization in all sports,and this is know even in Football,Handball , Volleyball everything!!!

Just for ur info , Matt Freije father's name is "Chebel "!!! a pure Lebanese old name , and again i know u did not mean that we r naturalizing but thats just to strengthen the sense of knowledge for some.

 

[TrueBluePinoy]

Of course it's not the same to probably most Fil-foreigners who feel proud of their heritage and roots, but motivation is not basis for rules. I hope you get my points now.

Yeah I get it now. It's FIBA's fault as usual.

 

[sinobball]

Just for ur info , Matt Freije father's name is "Chebel "!!! a pure Lebanese old name , and again i know u did not mean that we r naturalizing but thats just to strengthen the sense of knowledge for some.

Since you are on it, a google search of "Chebel Freije" reveals the source to be none other than you, daniab, on this forum. (Of course I know the source is probably Arabic, but I just find it funny)

Again I still believe in Freije's Lebanese heritage. It's just things like that can never be made certain. Which is why I'm opting for the simplest solution in my earliest post.

 

[Alex07]

http://sc.judiciary.gov.ph/publications/benchmark/2010/031004.php

how about David Pennisi just kidding

 

[daniab]

Since you are on it, a google search of "Chebel Freije" reveals the source to be none other than you, daniab, on this forum. (Of course I know the source is probably Arabic, but I just find it funny)

Again I still believe in Freije's Lebanese heritage. It's just things like that can never be made certain. Which is why I'm opting for the simplest solution in my earliest post.

i didnt get why would u go to google ? his father was not the president of the United States
My source is his papers , i saw it in my eyes and i know certainly what am talking about!

 

[lizardking]

Actually, as far as citizenship is concerned, the Philippines follows its Constitution and not any other rule. And our Constitution says that if one of your parents is Filipino when you were born, you are a Filipino. Thats the fundamental law and I don't see anything wrong with that. A lot of countries all over the world follow such citizenship-follows-blood principle.

As far as our own sifting process, the Philippines doesn't look too kindly upon posers. It is very stringent. It could go all the way from the Immigration Bureau to the several heirarchical levels of our courts. Your papers and evidence will be scrutinized all the way, again and again. Most bring their Filipino parent to dispel all suspicion. In such cases, our priority is not winning basketball but rather proving their citizenship. It doesn't matter if you have NCAA Div 1 credentials or how talented you are. If at least one of your parents ain't Filipino, you get kicked out and told never to set foot on these islands again. Ask any of the Philippine forumers here, weve kicked out quite a number of them.

Now if it were the other way around and we were allowed to use the principle of people born in Philippine soil as Filipinos, then we would have the benefit of utilizing the products of so many millions of americans who have been assigned to these islands for quite some time. But thats not the way our law goes.

 

[eindhow]

Actually, as far as citizenship is concerned, the Philippines follows its Constitution and not any other rule. And our Constitution says that if one of your parents is Filipino when you were born, you are a Filipino. Thats the fundamental law and I don't see anything wrong with that. A lot of countries all over the world follow such citizenship-follows-blood principle.

As far as our own sifting process, the Philippines doesn't look too kindly upon posers. It is very stringent. It could go all the way from the Immigration Bureau to the several heirarchical levels of our courts. Your papers and evidence will be scrutinized all the way, again and again. Most bring their Filipino parent to dispel all suspicion. In such cases, our priority is not winning basketball but rather proving their citizenship. It doesn't matter if you have NCAA Div 1 credentials or how talented you are. If at least one of your parents ain't Filipino, you get kicked out and told never to set foot on these islands again. Ask any of the Philippine forumers here, weve kicked out quite a number of them.

Now if it were the other way around and we were allowed to use the principle of people born in Philippine soil as Filipinos, then we would have the benefit of utilizing the products of so many millions of americans who have been assigned to these islands for quite some time. But thats not the way our law goes.

It's called jus soli and jus sanguini right?? Where jus soli is citizenship of where you were born and jus sanguinis is the blood-related citizenship?? (I really listened to my PGC - Philippine Government and Constitution professor when we discussed citizenship because of...well... Smart Gilas..^^) And the Philippines follow the principle of jus sanguinis..

 

[lizardking]

Let me just ask you this, disregarding the age limits, can these Fil-Ams run for president in your country? If no, why not?

All other requirements met, yes, they can. Whats your point sir?

Originally Posted by eindhow
It's called jus soli and jus sanguini right?? Where jus soli is citizenship of where you were born and jus sanguinis is the blood-related citizenship?? (I really listened to my PGC - Philippine Government and Constitution professor when we discussed citizenship because of...well... Smart Gilas..^^) And the Philippines follow the principle of jus sanguinis..

Oh yeah, forgot about those latin terms. Wow, aside from PE, this is the first time I heard basketball making you listen to your Profs.