The Junmar Fajardo Thread

[drhouse]

Yes, and most of them are sold out with the idea that the strongest Phl. team to be assembled is a PBA-select nat'l. team. That they think Smart Gilas-1 program with a mixture of amateur & PBA players plus a naturalized player, was a waste. I know of some Filipino basketball fans who wished for the downfall of Gilas-1 program becoz they are so obsessed with the idea that the only way to form a strong Phl. basketball team is if it is composed of the very best talents of the PBA.

you really need the very best of pba players. a dozen of the best uaap players will be massacred 100 percent against the real men in fiba seniors play. pba team play and coaching is not up to international standards yet. that fool toro even dared to use a lot of pygmies in the national team. that is unfogiveabke, as the skills of young gilas players haven't even matured yet, for a double disadvantage. there are also those who insist that undersized, slow and powerless guards like yap - who certainly look good against ginebra-sized guards - are serviceable at the international levels.

[Bonifacio]

you really need the very best of pba players. a dozen of the best uaap players will be massacred 100 percent against the real men in fiba seniors play. pba team play and coaching is not up to international standards yet. that fool toro even dared to use a lot of pygmies in the national team. that is unfogiveabke, as the skills of young gilas players haven't even matured yet, for a double disadvantage. there are also those who insist that undersized, slow and powerless guards like yap - who certainly look good against ginebra-sized guards - are serviceable at the international levels.

I dont agree that it will be massacred 100% against the real men in FIBA seniors...how would you then explain the Dubai FIBA 2009 tournament where Gilas 1 played without naturalised players and PBA players and had only 1 fil-am...the players were just guys who were either either still playing with their respective schools or just graduated.......their competition were the top teams in their respective leagues with imports.....and yet Gilas 1 placed 3rd and lost the semi-finals by a small margin

These same players placed 4th in the FIBA Stankovich 2011 with only Taulava as a reinforcement...They lost to Qatar only by 5 points for the 3rd position...and lost only by 1 point in the semi-finals to the eventual champion, Lebanon

[startupsold]

I dont agree that it will be massacred 100% against the real men in FIBA seniors...how would you then explain the Dubai FIBA 2009 tournament where Gilas 1 played without naturalised players and PBA players and had only 1 fil-am...the players were just guys who were either either still playing with their respective schools or just graduated.......their competition were the top teams in their respective leagues with imports.....and yet Gilas 1 placed 3rd and lost the semi-finals by a small margin

These same players placed 4th in the FIBA Stankovich 2011 with only Taulava as a reinforcement...They lost to Qatar only by 5 points for the 3rd position...and lost only by 1 point in the semi-finals to the eventual champion, Lebanon

You also have to take into consideration that gilas 2 won the jones cup gold with two weeks of practice, comparing the previous and the current batch would do us more harm than good. Let us look forward to 2013 fiba and if we fail to qualify I WILL BE THE FIRST ONE TO COMPARE HOW GILAS 1 IS BETTER THAN GILAS 2.

[Bonifacio]

You also have to take into consideration that gilas 2 won the jones cup gold with two weeks of practice, comparing the previous and the current batch would do us more harm than good. Let us look forward to 2013 fiba and if we fail to qualify I WILL BE THE FIRST ONE TO COMPARE HOW GILAS 1 IS BETTER THAN GILAS 2.

I am not comparing....I am simply saying that I disagree when someone says that we would be massacred 100% if we dont use PBA players....and I just stated some facts that the previous statement of the poster is false.....I didnt even mention Gilas 2...you are the one comparing the two gilas

[drhouse]

I dont agree that it will be massacred 100% against the real men in FIBA seniors...how would you then explain the Dubai FIBA 2009 tournament where Gilas 1 played without naturalised players and PBA players and had only 1 fil-am...the players were just guys who were either either still playing with their respective schools or just graduated.......their competition were the top teams in their respective leagues with imports.....and yet Gilas 1 placed 3rd and lost the semi-finals by a small margin

These same players placed 4th in the FIBA Stankovich 2011 with only Taulava as a reinforcement...They lost to Qatar only by 5 points for the 3rd position...and lost only by 1 point in the semi-finals to the eventual champion, Lebanon

i am not very good with dates and teams. perhaps the 2009 dubai tournament you mentioned happened in january 2010? the teams were mere corporate teams like champville and not national teams? forgive my memories cause they are as old as my grandpa who was a friiend of and fought with the bonifacio of tondo in the 1890s. those were very bad times for patriotic national players.

[Alex07]

But Hamed Hadadi wasn't yet that good in 2007. He was still a bit raw at that time. He wasn't even playing in the NBA at that time.

Yes but Hamed Heddadi was already playing briefly in Iran during that time he rejected a contract from Partizan Belgrade, a Serbian pro team then he had the chance to play for the NBADL before moving up in the NBA.sure he's not that good yet.

[Bonifacio]

i am not very good with dates and teams. perhaps the 2009 dubai tournament you mentioned happened in january 2010? the teams were mere corporate teams like champville and not national teams? forgive my memories cause they are as old as my grandpa who was a friiend of and fought with the bonifacio of tondo in the 1890s. those were very bad times for patriotic national players.

Opo..you are right....it is the top club teams of their respective countries like Mahram of Iran and Al Riyadih of Lebanon with two imports....it is like playing TNT with two imports against a bunch of college graduates

[drhouse]

Yes but Hamed Heddadi was already playing briefly in Iran during that time he rejected a contract from Partizan Belgrade, a Serbian pro team then he had the chance to play for the NBADL before moving up in the NBA.sure he's not that good yet.

commercial teams will never fight with the same dtermination as national teams, particularlr when olympic or world championship placings are at stake. this was why pba players even in the time of jaworski almost always got the rudest shocks of their lives when opposing national teams refuse to die and want devastatating wins. pba team play is still designed for entertainment so they have to refocus for national team duties. it is irrelevant whether champville had two or eight mercenaries. they will never play do-or-die like national teams.

[Bonifacio]

commercial teams will never fight with the same dtermination as national teams, particularlr when olympic or world championship placings are at stake. this was why pba players even in the time of jaworski almost always got the rudest shocks of their lives when opposing national teams refuse to die and want devastatating wins. pba team play is still designed for entertainment so they have to refocus for national team duties. it is irrelevant whether champville had two or eight mercenaries. they will never play do-or-die like national teams.

Sorry for the OT....You just reminded me when you mentioned Jaworski that Toyota with imports (Carlos Terry and Bruce King) was able to beat the National teams of Yugoslavia and Canada when Manila hosted the 1978 World Basketball Championship.

[drhouse]

Sorry for the OT....You just reminded me when you mentioned Jaworski that Toyota with imports (Carlos Terry and Bruce King) was able to beat the National teams of Yugoslavia and Canada when Manila hosted the 1978 World Basketball Championship.

you just reminded me too that jaworski and friends can't do this outside the country. friendly crowds and even friendlier refs change game results. gilas 2 can win games against top national teams n hostile territories. that's the difference. gilas 2 with fajardo and slaughter should be mighty against top national teams today. you still actually believe gilas 1 without the tnt pros was THAT good?

[Bonifacio]

you just reminded me too that jaworski and friends can't do this outside the country. friendly crowds and even friendlier refs change game results. gilas 2 can win games against top national teams n hostile territories. that's the difference. gilas 2 with fajardo and slaughter should be mighty against top national teams today. you still actually believe gilas 1 without the tnt pros was THAT good?

Sorry for the OT again....I'm not giving my opinion here...I am just just merely stating the facts to refute your statement that Philippines will be massacred 100% if we dont send PBA players i.e.:

1) Gilas 1 composed of recently college graduates without naturalised players and PBA reinforcement won 3rd place against top ballclub teams with 1-2 imports. They lost only by a small margin in the semi-finals from the eventual winner Lebanon. They did this by playing in a Middle East country (hostile country) where most of their competitors are from.
2) Gilas 1 composed of the same colege grads but reinforced by Taulava won 4th place in the Fiba Stanckovic Cup. They lost only by 1 point in the semi finals from the eventual winner Lebanon, and lost by 5 points in the figth for 3rd place against Qatar. They played not in Manila but in Lebanon (hostile country).
3) Gilas 1 composed of the same college grads but reinforced by Douthit won against the World Basketball-bound national team of Jordan in the Smart Philippines Invitational Challenge. This happened though in the Philippines
4) Gilas 1 composed of the same college grad but reinforced by Douthit and Taulava (subbing one another), placed 2nd in 2011 Dubai Tournament against top Asian club teams with 1-2 imports. Again, this happened in the Middle East (hostile country) where most of their competitors are from.

From the above, I dont think that Philippines will be massacred 100% if we dont use PBA players.

[JAMSKIE]

you really need the very best of pba players. a dozen of the best uaap players will be massacred 100 percent against the real men in fiba seniors play. pba team play and coaching is not up to international standards yet. that fool toro even dared to use a lot of pygmies in the national team. that is unfogiveabke, as the skills of young gilas players haven't even matured yet, for a double disadvantage. there are also those who insist that undersized, slow and powerless guards like yap - who certainly look good against ginebra-sized guards - are serviceable at the international levels.

Talking about massacre, do you remember (or are you aware) of the "massacre" that a Chot Reyes-mentored PBA-select nat'l. team had inflicted during the 2007 FIBA-Asia Champions Cup?

Please take note, that was a team that made up of the very best, the most talented & the most seasoned PBA superstars (with all their smarts, "gulang" & experience) that carried our country's pride. You got names such as Taulava, Alapag, Caguioa, Helterbrand, Raymundo, Hontiveros, who without any doubt were the brightest superstars in the PBA. But what happened to that team in that said tournament? Nasaan yung angas, gulang & court smarts ng mga PBA superstars natin when they were blown-out by a Syrian team Al-Jalaa not just once but twice by an average margin of 30+ points. Then they again were blown-out by a Qatari team by a margin of 20 pts. Eh nagmukhang mga amateurs yung mga pros natin sa mga games na yun ah.

Now, let's compare that to the performance of the Rajko Toroman-mentored Smart Gilas-1 team. During Smart Gilas' 3 years of campaign, ilang beses ba ang team na nilampaso sa international competitions? Not that much! Gilas-1 also played in the 2009, 2010 & 2011 editions of FIBA-Asia Champions Cup and the team was hardly beaten via rout. The only game I remember that Gilas-1 was routed was the game vs. Al Rayan-Qatar where Gilas lost by 20+ points in 2010 edition of said tournament. But that was a depleted Gilas-1 line-up without JV Casio & Marcio Lassiter.

Yes, natatalo din ang Gilas, but that team rarely lost by a blow-out.

I find it ridiculous that you marginalize & discredit Toroman despite his achievements. Toroman led Gilas-1 to a 4th place in last year's FIBA-Asia Men's Championship & that's the highest finish of Phl. team in that tournament in the last 24 years. If you can't call that an achievement then kindly tell me what is it.

I will be accused of comparing Toroman's Smart Gilas with Chot Reyes 2007 RP team but I had to do it to prove a point.

[JAMSKIE]

Sorry for the OT again....I'm not giving my opinion here...I am just just merely stating the facts to refute your statement that Philippines will be massacred 100% if we dont send PBA players i.e.:

1) Gilas 1 composed of recently college graduates without naturalised players and PBA reinforcement won 3rd place against top ballclub teams with 1-2 imports. They lost only by a small margin in the semi-finals from the eventual winner Lebanon. They did this by playing in a Middle East country (hostile country) where most of their competitors are from.
2) Gilas 1 composed of the same colege grads but reinforced by Taulava won 4th place in the Fiba Stanckovic Cup. They lost only by 1 point in the semi finals from the eventual winner Lebanon, and lost by 5 points in the figth for 3rd place against Qatar. They played not in Manila but in Lebanon (hostile country).
3) Gilas 1 composed of the same college grads but reinforced by Douthit won against the World Basketball-bound national team of Jordan in the Smart Philippines Invitational Challenge. This happened though in the Philippines
4) Gilas 1 composed of the same college grad but reinforced by Douthit and Taulava (subbing one another), placed 2nd in 2011 Dubai Tournament against top Asian club teams with 1-2 imports. Again, this happened in the Middle East (hostile country) where most of their competitors are from.

From the above, I dont think that Philippines will be massacred 100% if we dont use PBA players.

Great points my friend.

By the way I almost forgot, hindi pala massacre ang tawag doon noong tinalo ang Chot Reyes-mentored PBA-select Phl. team ng Lebanon in the recent Jones Cup. I wonder how drhouse will call it. LOL

[drhouse]

Great points my friend.

By the way I almost forgot, hindi pala massacre ang tawag doon noong tinalo ang Chot Reyes-mentored PBA-select Phl. team ng Lebanon in the recent Jones Cup. I wonder how drhouse will call it. LOL

you talk of how great toro and his amateurs are. yet you all know that a pba team with the same years of togetherness preparation and money support can perform. you all conveniently forgot that the so-called amateur gilas 1 was never paid amateur style. they were a pro team. so how will they have performed if they were to go fiba in just two weeks and drawn straight out of uaap teams?

they are already unmasked now as pros. i'm sure the sanmig group can sponsor a national team made up of former gilas 1 amateurs for a fiba tournament so everyone can see how good they really are. throw in the foreign dog too as coach so there won't be 3 years of excuses again.

chot or any other local coach would perform better than toro if they have the same three years worth of money and continuity given to toro. gilas 1 fanatics always forget that this team had special treatment as special children. no national team was ever given their benefits as a pro team for 3 years.

you talk of the achievements of these gilas 1 exclusive pros as if they were better than the rag-tag teams before them.

you keep forgeting that the amateurs i was referring to before bonifacio somehow made it gilas 1 were direct uaap conscripts. bonifacio and you are insane enough to believe gilas 1 was an amateur team like amateur up maroons who pay for their own preparations. you and bonifacio should go on and propagate the lie that gilas 1 was an amateur team. gilas 1fanatics have even more excuses than their coach.

[analyzed]

Isn’t this just semantics? example if Lassiter played this year he would be considered a Pro but in 2011 he was an “amateur”. But he is basically the same player this year as last. The obvious advantage of Lassiter in 2011 as compared to this year is the former lassiter had the benefit of more time to prepare. So on that point the question is not the type of player “amateur” vs “pro” but the type of preparation they’re exposed to.
So with that the factors for success is talent “whether amateur or pro” and preparation time. And are all the best talent in the PBA? not necessary (Slaugthers isn’t) and do all amateurs have more preparation time? again not necessary (if Parks is prohibited by NU) .
Gilas I success simply shows they had a good combination of “talent” harnessed with “good preparation time” . Nothing more nothing less