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The Kurdish problem of Turkey

Levenspiel

Administrator
This issue was brought up by many people, sometimes to learn more about the problem, sometimes with other intentions.

So, if you have anything to say, please free to comment. I'll personally will try to help as much as i can.
 
I know pretty much nothing about it, but I'd sure love to hear about the issue, if anyone (objective) who knows the situation well would like to explain about it, I'd love to hear.
 
I think this is the most serious problem Turkey will have in the 21st century.

International relations can always be solved as is evident by the Greco-Turkish, Syrian-Turkish, Iranian-Turkish relations in the last decade, but internal problems are always hard to resolve.

Best solution in a case like this is a double state formula, like in BiH or Belgium. But Turkey will never accept this. In the meantime, the Kurdish minority (being the poorest) will continue to grow, making the problem even bigger.

As history prooves, simply giving equal rights to people is not enough. Minorities use these rights to claim the birth of a new sovereign state as part their right for self-determination.
 
According to the Lausenne treaty, only minorities that reside in Turkish lands are Greeks, Armenians and Jewish people. So in the first place, either in turkish laws or the international treaties Kurds are accepted as turkish people.

However, no need to deny that they exists as a race. About 15 millions kurdish people living in Turkey. Most of them reside in Southeastern and eastern territories of turkey.

The problem is heated up in last 30 years but it's been there actually from the fall of Ottoman Empire. The British offered lands for Kurds in exchange for helping them against ottomans like they did to arabs. Kurds have been living in some feodal hierarchy on the inside that they divided into "asiret"s (a term, close to the "tribe") . Those Asirets are the very huge families and during WWI some of them agreed to help brits, some of them not. Anyway Brits didn't help them to found their own lands in the end when the current borders were drawn.

30 years ago, a terrorist group PKK founded and they started to fight against the state of Turkey in order to found a Kurdish state in so called kurdish territories. These territories includes whole Southeastern and Eastern provinces of turkey, northern Iraq, Western part of Iran and northeastern part of syria. The PKK is also organized in those countries under different fractions however they're not active like they're in Turkey.

It's very wrong to think that All of those kurdish people here supports PKK. The kurdish people are represented in the council, a party called BDP, which is somewhat connected with PKK but not extremist like them. They demand an autonomous region in so-called kurdish territories.

Turkey's stance here is to refuse all claims on turkish lands and fight against PKK. The terrorist organization costs turkey so far ,apart from billion dollars of military expenses, thousands of civilians and thousands of soldiers.

I've tried to be as objective as i can... The issue is much much longer but it can be summed up like this...I believe some people will correct me if I'm wrong and add the points that i missed.
 
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thanx for the info.Pretty much the same problem most of the old empires face and this will lead inevitably to war and conflict and blood.I don't see any other way around.
 
Thanks kyosphere, btw what kind of terror actions does the PKK do? Do they mostly target civilians or military?
 
In Turkey it's a bit difficult to claim any pure ethnicity, and that's why it is not of primary concern for many people. I'd dare say PKK's support rate among Kurds is no more than right wing party's rates among Turkish: around 10-15%. Unfortunately that's a big enough number and their hatred towards respective races fuels each other's engine.

Even though I had many Kurdish acquaintances, until recently I had never been to the East. Because of my job, I had to do some trips in last two months, including a few travels to "the red zones". It's obvious that the strict control days are over, and people are more relaxed in general.

Of course PKK doesn't like that, which feeds on hatred. So they create reasons for mutual hatred. I happen to visit the biggest nevruz celebration in Diyarbakir too. Instead of a celebration it was a political show ground for BDP unfortunately, and they were basically saying "don't be fooled by the state's apparent good will, they are trying to trick you".

In general I liked what I've seen. Even though everybody was Kurdish around, they never let me feel I was outsider. Actually they were happy (and a bit proud) to see a Turkish engineer called for the job, for which only foreign people deemed capable of doing before.

There were moments when I felt really pessimistic too. It's not gonna be easy. As majority of people, I also would love to see this conflict end. It takes away so much from this country, from Kurdish, Turkish, and others.

Note: The opinions of Turkish people on this topic are quite varied, so consider these as only my personal observations.
 
Thanks kyosphere, btw what kind of terror actions does the PKK do? Do they mostly target civilians or military?

lately soldiers only...as i stated in another topic we lost 10-15 soldier each month and this is annoying. They mainly penetrate into Turkey from northern iraq where they are trained. They plant mines on roads where mostly military vehicles use in southeastern turkey or directly attack with rpg's and Ak47 to the police or military stations in that cities and ambush soldier in rural areas. In Turkish lands, they usually hide in the mountains of the same area.

Though, they also attacked the civilians. Some terrorist attacks I remember are, planting bomb in shopping malls, crowded places or using suicide bomber in buses etc.
 
lately soldiers only...as i stated in another topic we lost 10-15 soldier each month and this is annoying. They mainly penetrate into Turkey from northern iraq where they are trained. They plant mines on roads where mostly military vehicles use in southeastern turkey or directly attack with rpg's and Ak47 to the police or military stations in that cities and ambush soldier in rural areas. In Turkish lands, they usually hide in the mountains of the same area.

Though, they also attacked the civilians. Some terrorist attacks I remember are, planting bomb in shopping malls, crowded places or using suicide bomber in buses etc.

Ok, thanks for the explanation :)
 
Well , it's not too hard to see some analogy between Turkey & Israel:

Israeli Arabs ~ Turkish Kurds
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah military wing ~ PKK

Do you mind, if i ask some questions ?

The way I understand the main problem between Turks & Kurds that Turks want to assimilate Kurds and Kurds want some cultural & political autonomy ...

Is it true that

1) TV/Radio broadcasting in Kurdish is banned in Turkey?
2) schools that use Kurdish as a main language are forbidden?
 
Well , it's not too hard to see some analogy between Turkey & Israel:

Israeli Arabs ~ Turkish Kurds
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah military wing ~ PKK
That analogy has been established by many people in the past. Although there are similar points, i personally do not share this view. Kurdish people are not confined in anyway in Turkey, and the support rate for PKK is not that high.

The way I understand the main problem between Turks & Kurds that Turks want to assimilate Kurds and Kurds want some cultural & political autonomy ...
First part was true, but in the past tense again. The claim was that every single citizen, independent of his/her ethnic origin, was Turkish. This wasn't the brightest idea, of course.

But you know it worked to some extent. I told before, I was in the east, and I was surprised to hear all Kurdish people introducing themselves as Turkish to visiting foreign managers, and they were never disturbed by it. They are Kurdish but at the same time Turkish, when defining their larger identity. It's like a Hispanic in the USA introducing himself as American. This is not the same for everybody of course.

Is it true that

1) TV/Radio broadcasting in Kurdish is banned in Turkey?
2) schools that use Kurdish as a main language are forbidden?
1). Not true. Even the state tv has a full time Kurdish channel (TRT-6).
2). Official education is only in Turkish. You can have Kurdish schools or courses but that's only for personal interest. So, a Kurdish child has to complete his/her full education in Turkish.

These two points, however, were different like 10 years ago. Now the state is recognizing the different ethnicities and trying to be nicer to them. I'm sure the education in Kurdish and other rights will follow too, but recent PKK activities don't help at all.
 
That analogy has been established by many people in the past. Although there are similar points, i personally do not share this view. Kurdish people are not confined in anyway in Turkey, and the support rate for PKK is not that high.

Israeli Arabs are not confined in Israel: they have the very same rights as any other citizen . The only restriction is army service : it's compulsory only for non-Arab citizens , Arab citizens are free to choose weather to serve in the military or not . Druzes & Beduins usually serve in IDF.

There are some cases of non equality : e.g. security checks in airports takes more time for Arabs then Jews , probably certain jobs ( related to military equipment ) are closed for anybody who didn't served in IDF.

In some sense Israeli Arabs have more rights then Kurds in Turkey:
a) Israeli state schools do provide education in Arabic
b) Arabic is the state's official language : banknotes, road signs, all official blanks have Arabic script along with Hebrew

"The territories" (Gaza, West Bank) of course is a different story: they are de-facto independent states with all attributes : all branches of power ( parliament, police force, juridical system ) , the only practical attribute they lack is probably their own currency. The closest thing in Turkish reality for Gaza & West Bank is Iraqi Kurdistan .
 
Turkish jets raid northern Iraq, clashes kill 23

By SUZAN FRASER, Associated Press Writer Suzan Fraser, Associated Press Writer

ANKARA, Turkey – Turkish warplanes launched air raids at suspected Kurdish rebel positions in northern Iraq Saturday after a rebel attack on a military outpost in Turkey touched off clashes in which nine soldiers and 12 rebel fighters died, Turkey's military and reports said.

Two other soldiers were killed in a land mine explosion while chasing the rebels, the state-run Anatolia new agency reported, raising the overall death toll in Saturday's violence to 23.

Special forces were immediately sent to reinforce the border area where the clashes occurred and Turkish warplanes bombed detected Kurdish rebel positions in northern Iraq the military said, without providing any further details.

At least 14 other soldiers were wounded in the fighting.

Kurdish rebels have dramatically stepped up attacks in Turkey in recent months, threatening a government attempt to end one of the world's longest guerrilla wars. The military said Friday more than 40 soldiers had been killed since March — including six who died in a rocket attack on a vehicle near a naval base in southern Turkey — and warned it anticipated more attacks.

Turkey's military has responded by sending warplanes across the border for raids on suspected rebel bases while elite commandos crossed the border in pursuit of the rebels in a daylong incursion earlier this week.

The rebels belonging to the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, have used northern Iraq as a springboard to stage hit-and-run attacks on Turkish targets in their decades-long campaign for autonomy in Turkey's Kurdish-dominated southeast. The Turkish military says around 4,000 rebels are based just across the border in Iraq and that about 2,500 operate inside Turkey.

The group declared it was increasing attacks on June 1, a day after imprisoned Kurdish rebel chief Abdullah Ocalan said in a statement relayed by his lawyers that his calls for dialogue with Turkey had been ignored and that he was giving his consent to the rebel command in northern Iraq to determine which course of action to take.

The military said Saturday's attack occurred at 2 a.m. (2300 GMT Friday) on an outpost near the town of Semdinli — a mountainous region where the borders of Turkey, Iraq and Iran meet. The military said eight soldiers were killed but the Anatolia later reported that one missing soldier was found dead, raising the number of troops killed in the attack to nine.

Private NTV television, citing unnamed military sources, said a large group of PKK rebels infiltrated the area from hideouts across the Iraqi border to attack the military unit.

Clashes in the region were continuing sporadically, NTV said.

The United States, which along with the European Union, has declared the PKK to be a terrorist group, has provided intelligence to Turkey in support of its fight against the rebels. Turkey also uses drones it recently purchased from Israel.

Armagan Kuloglu, a retired general and military analyst, said, however, there appeared to be a deficiency in the intelligence and that the advance of the rebels should have been detected.

Saturday's attack was met with outrage among politicians in Turkey.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey was determined to press ahead with the fight "until the terrorist organization is eradicated."

A nationalist opposition party, the Nationalist Action Party, called for a wide-ranging ground offensive in northern Iraq, including the establishment of a security zone along the border inside Iraqi territory and operations against PKK commanders believed to be based on Mount Qandil, which sits on the Iranian-Iraqi border.

On Friday, the military said it had killed as many as 120 Kurdish rebels in an air raid on rebel positions in northern Iraq last month and in this week's incursion by elite commandos who crossed the border to hunt down a group of PKK rebels who escaped after a failed attack near the border town of Uludere.

Turkey has launched several air and ground incursions into northern Iraq over the 26 years of the insurgency, with mixed results. The rebels have returned to positions along the border soon after the troops have withdrawn.

The Marxist group has been labeled a terrorist organization by the West for killing civilians in urban bombings and arson attacks and slaying government teachers, engineers and clergymen.

The government has extended greater cultural rights to the Kurds such as broadcasts in the Kurdish language on television, in an effort to win their hearts and reduce support for the rebels.

Turkey, however, rejects calls from the Kurdish rebels and politicians to allow education in schools in Kurdish. The language is also barred in parliament and other official settings on the grounds that its use would divide the country along ethnic lines.

The conflict has killed as many as 40,000 people since 1984.

Hope the situation doesn't totally get out of hand.
I never knew this huge amount of people were killed from this conflict.
 
Kurds are part of the Indo-European ethnic and linguistic group in the Middle East for thousands of years. Whereas Turks are part of the ethnic Central Asian Turkic people west of the Caspian Sea until Mongolia and relatively new to what is called Asia Minor (Present-day Turkey). E.g. Seljouks, Ottomans, Khazars, Mamluks, Kazakhs, Tatars, Kyrgyzs, Turkmen, Uyghur, Uzbeks, Chuvashes, Bashkirs, Gagauzs are all Turkic people all from Asia.

It is wrong to present the Kurdish rights as a "Turkish problem". What is better to say is that historic lands of Kurdistan encompasses parts of present Turkish, Iraqi, Syrian and Iranian lands and also part of what is also Historic Armenia.

Eventually there will be a Kurdish state on certain parts of this historic Kurdistan (Turkey - Syria - Iraq - Iran - historic Armenia).
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason why Kurdish don't have a state is because they never had enough power - political and military. Or in another words the rest of the world have never cared about them, and didn't want to get against Turkey or the Ottoman empire for them.
They are in their lands for hundreds of years and they don't even clam for more than these lands.
 
Israeli Arabs are not confined in Israel: they have the very same rights as any other citizen . The only restriction is army service : it's compulsory only for non-Arab citizens , Arab citizens are free to choose weather to serve in the military or not . Druzes & Beduins usually serve in IDF.
Billy, I'm not so well informed about Arabs' situation in Israel, but please do not put these same situations in the same context. It's kind of offensive.

Do you remember, there was a drawing in the other thread, showing a hamas militant shooting behind a baby cart and an Israeli soldier hiding the baby cart behind him. Well, that may really be the case, I think it is actually. But your israeli soldier still shoots and kills even there's a baby cart between him and the hamas militant. That's the problem. And that's what differentiates Turkish soldiers from yours. Unfortunately so many Turkish kids of 20 years of age dies in the attacks everyday (and it hurts a lot) and Kurdish people in Turkey still have no fear of being "collateral damage" in an operation. I wouldn't bring Israeli issues here. No comparison would be better.

Kurds are part of the Indo-European ethnic and linguistic group in the Middle East for thousands of years. Whereas Turks are part of the ethnic Central Asian Turkic people west of the Caspian Sea until Mongolia and relatively new to what is called Asia Minor (Present-day Turkey). E.g. Seljouks, Ottomans, Khazars, Mamluks, Kazakhs, Tatars, Kyrgyzs, Turkmen, Uyghur, Uzbeks, Chuvashes, Bashkirs, Gagauzs are all Turkic people all from Asia.
No objection WBB, we are different people sharing the same geography, which is the lands of Turkey. So we are people from Turkey, some ethnically Turkish, some Kurdish, some Albanian, some totally mixed, etc.

It is wrong to present the Kurdish rights as a "Turkish problem". What is better to say is that historic lands of Kurdistan encompasses parts of present Turkish, Iraqi, Syrian and Iranian lands and also part of what is also Historic Armenia.
Do you think it's a fight for "rights"? I know better ways for it. I'm for giving all the rights, but I despise those whoever defends the terrorist PKK and its actions. It's not only a Turkish problem, but it hurts us most. The fight fuels hatred between people, kills economy, increases military expenditures, boosts/sustain the power of army, increase their influence on democracy, and overall damages every single person in the country.

Eventually there will be a Kurdish state on certain parts of this historic Kurdistan (Turkey - Syria - Iraq - Iran - historic Armenia).
Personally I don't think so. Eventually is a relative frame and can be a very long time. You never know, many things will change.
 
Do you remember, there was a drawing in the other thread, showing a hamas militant shooting behind a baby cart and an Israeli soldier hiding the baby cart behind him. Well, that may really be the case, I think it is actually. But your israeli soldier still shoots and kills even there's a baby cart between him and the hamas militant. That's the problem. And that's what differentiates Turkish soldiers from yours. Unfortunately so many Turkish kids of 20 years of age dies in the attacks everyday (and it hurts a lot) and Kurdish people in Turkey still have no fear of being "collateral damage" in an operation. I wouldn't bring Israeli issues here. No comparison would be better.

Do you seriously believe "Turkish warplanes air raids at suspected Kurdish rebel positions in northern Iraq" (as was posted above) didn't killed any innocent Kurds, including children ?

There is no way to fight terror with sweets and leaflets , and there is no way to drop bombs on "suspected guerrilla positions" without hurting civilians.

PKK fights Turkey with bombs , Turkey fights back with bigger bombs , and bombs' nature is to do "collateral damage"...

When Erdogan says "Hamas is not a terror organization, they are Palestinians in resistance, fighting for their own land" and after a couple of days when PKK kills Turkish soldiers: "Turkey will never give in to violence and acts of terror, and terrorists will "drown in their own blood"

I'd say he's a f&cking hypocrite , isn't he ? :rolleyes:
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason why Kurdish don't have a state is because they never had enough power - political and military. Or in another words the rest of the world have never cared about them, and didn't want to get against Turkey or the Ottoman empire for them.
They are in their lands for hundreds of years and they don't even clam for more than these lands.

If I recall correctly , with the exception of Turks , practically no people had enough power to create their own state on the remains of Ottoman Empire.

Kurds were divided by then super-powers British & French in the infamous Sykes–Picot Agreement

Then French/British simply draw borders with a ruler on the map according to their own interest , granting power to the clans that helped them to fight Ottomans. Ever noticed how geometrically perfect are some borders on the modern Middle East map?

Nobody thought then of people living on those lands ... probably then only one he thought was TE Lawrence, in fact he tried his own borders division , but his map was dismissed by Brits & French.
 
Billy, I'm not so well informed about Arabs' situation in Israel, but please do not put these same situations in the same context. It's kind of offensive.

Do you remember, there was a drawing in the other thread, showing a hamas militant shooting behind a baby cart and an Israeli soldier hiding the baby cart behind him. Well, that may really be the case, I think it is actually. But your israeli soldier still shoots and kills even there's a baby cart between him and the hamas militant. That's the problem. And that's what differentiates Turkish soldiers from yours. Unfortunately so many Turkish kids of 20 years of age dies in the attacks everyday (and it hurts a lot) and Kurdish people in Turkey still have no fear of being "collateral damage" in an operation. I wouldn't bring Israeli issues here. No comparison would be better.

I put this drawing up. Two questions:

1). Do PKK terrorists hide among civilian population or how comes that the Turkish Air Force is attacking them and killing terrorists only? Maybe there is a difference in tactics used by PKK and Hamas & Co.?

2). The fact that the Palestinian combatant is hiding behind a child (symbol for civilians) does not automatically equal the IDF soldier shooting at him, hitting the child along the way. Too many operations have been canceled due to unproportionate risk. Too many Israeli soldiers died in an attempt to minimize the risks for Palestinian civilians. This picture also presents a dilemma of how to protect your own citizen, if the people who are attacking it are hiding behind human shields from their own population. To do nothing is not an option. Simply to open fire regardless of what comes out of this will end up like in Chechnya. Military engagement is criticized. Non-violent solution like a security barrier i criticized. A semi-permeable blockade for weaponry and constructing materials is being criticized. At the same time, there is nobody to talk to as the "only" demand of Hamas is for Israel to stop existing.


Do you think it's a fight for "rights"? I know better ways for it.

Isn't it a fight for rights? For the same rights as the Palestinians seemingly deserve to have?
Better ways? Ghandi-style?

I'm for giving all the rights, but I despise those whoever defends the terrorist PKK and its actions.

All the rights? Also independence for people who account to 15 million in Turkey, living in a compact area?

See, I don't think every ethnic group of people in this world does deserve its own state. There are so many ethnicities and some of them are very small, not developed enough to sustain independence. A permanent change of borders would always lead to total lack of stability as new groups would appear all the time. Still, the Kurds have very valid reasons for independence as they are living quite closely together in huge numbers. At the same time, too many national borders would have to be altered in case of the creation of an independent Kurdish state.
However, the strange thing is that while Turkish people (as a whole) oppose the creation of a Kurdish state, they're all for a creation of a Palestinian state. Not to mention, what Jordan really is, who is living there and what sort of entity Jordan was separated from (with no ethnic, historical, cultural or linguistic reasons), PKK is being considered a terror group, since it is fighting for independence from Turkey and not for its destruction or domination over it. Hamas, on the other hand, is being proclaimed "not a terrorist organization" by the PM of Turkey, while it is fighting for the destruction of Israel alone. Not just for a creation of a Palestinian state but for its creation INSTEAD of Israel. PKK terrorists can be found and killed in barely populated areas, while Hamas is hiding among civilians only and does so with a major purpose. Turkish soldiers have never been in the situation Israeli soldiers have been in. Every move and breath of Turkish soldiers isn't being followed by the whole world, while forgetting about genocides in Africa, major oppression in Asia, destroying of democratic institutions in Latin America.
BTW, I know the estimated total number of people killed in the PKK - Turkey conflict but how many of them are Kurds?
 
Do you seriously believe "Turkish warplanes air raids at suspected Kurdish rebel positions in northern Iraq" (as was posted above) didn't killed any innocent Kurds, including children ?
Turkish airplanes are bombing where? PKK camps etc. Do you expect any civilians in those mountains where there's nothing except for rocks? Let me tell you, no. If there's a village, it's not difficult for planes to skip that. I honestly haven't heard of any damage like that.

And one thing: If my country's soldiers kill a civilian, even on a doubt, I am not defending it, unlike some of you guys do. Actually I'd be ashamed of it, so will many of my sane countrymen.

There is no way to fight terror with sweets and leaflets , and there is no way to drop bombs on "suspected guerrilla positions" without hurting civilians. PKK fights Turkey with bombs , Turkey fights back with bigger bombs, and bombs' nature is to do "collateral damage"...
This is your opinion, and the only thing I'm gonna say is your methods are way over the top. Anyway, I don't wanna bring Israeli issues here.

When Erdogan says "Hamas is not a terror organization, they are Palestinians in resistance, fighting for their own land" and after a couple of days when PKK kills Turkish soldiers: "Turkey will never give in to violence and acts of terror, and terrorists will "drown in their own blood"
I'd say he's a f&cking hypocrite , isn't he ? :rolleyes:
First Israel-Hamas is not Turkey-PKK and second Erdogan is not Turkey. He is a politician, and along with many good things he did, he also led some questionable, or let's say plain wrong, actions. I don't like his pro-islamic stance but I really appreciate his speaking up. I hate it when everybody watches like sheep and nods like a chicken on every Israeli action. As for hamas issue, they are definitely aiming to kill innocent people and they are terrorists. Erdogan may have other plans than defending poor Palestines, but that's something I can speculate only.
 
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