Philippines Cadet/Developmental Team

[IPC]

even though we haven't producing yet players who are in the same breath as those NBA and European players that you've guys keep on mentioning.

well i've been watching several U tournaments nowadays and I would say some local coaches are now embracing that "positionless basketball philosophy on their respective teams that's the otherside of the reality.

but on the other side of the reality, i've seen local coaches who still implements that old school philosophy "let the smaller kids responsible for the ball distribution/handling duties while the much taller kids are responsibile(only) for rebounding, screening and rim protection otherwise they will receive some mouthful if those poor lads won't comply.

It's a little bit like the chicken or egg problem. In order to play effective position-less basketball, you need skilled players in all positions. But that takes training, development and experience. And unless you purposely develop players for this style, you won't be able to pull it off.

Traditional style is easier and quicker (which is always our preference) because players stick to what they are naturally inclined for...shorter guys for dribbling, bigger guys for power inside.

Thing is, our biggest kids are usually 6'5"-6'7", sometimes 6'8". Rare do we see players 6'9" and above. That's PF or SF at most. Another one is, some of our bigger kids exclusively play center with an inability to either shoot or defend the perimeter.
​
​Our lack of bigman size is why I think positionless basketball should be the norm in developing kids. I'll adapt from some of sir Metta's ideas (start young) and sir C2Hamm's (teach everyone who wants to play). Before HS, everyone should be taught everything, regardless of height. Shooting, ballhandling, passing, lateral quickness, perimeter defense, screening, boxing out. Emphasize quickness over power as well. If you need strength, do not sacrifice quickness.

 

[Metta]

Thing is, our biggest kids are usually 6'5"-6'7", sometimes 6'8". Rare do we see players 6'9" and above. That's PF or SF at most. Another one is, some of our bigger kids exclusively play center with an inability to either shoot or defend the perimeter.
​
​Our lack of bigman size is why I think positionless basketball should be the norm in developing kids. I'll adapt from some of sir Metta's ideas (start young) and sir C2Hamm's (teach everyone who wants to play). Before HS, everyone should be taught everything, regardless of height. Shooting, ballhandling, passing, lateral quickness, perimeter defense, screening, boxing out. Emphasize quickness over power as well. If you need strength, do not sacrifice quickness.

Let me expound on my idea which I've discussed before. When I say start training young, it's about developing a vibrant and diverse youth sports culture. Not just basketball, but also other sports like soccer, volleyball, etc.

Dilution is a big part of our problem (6-foot centers). Those who are obviously not going to become tall should discover other sports while still young. Yes, everyone who gets into basketball should be taught all skills, but not everyone should be funneled into just basketball.

Tall guys won't be enabled to develop small-ball skills if there is an over-abundance of small players. And for those who have been around youth basketball, kids who are short/average height in adult life always outperforms kids who become very tall in adult life. They physically mature quicker and are more coordinated earlier. We have so many Julian Newmans.

 

[BJ_Reloaded]

Thing is, our biggest kids are usually 6'5"-6'7", sometimes 6'8". Rare do we see players 6'9" and above. That's PF or SF at most. Another one is, some of our bigger kids exclusively play center with an inability to either shoot or defend the perimeter.
​
​Our lack of bigman size is why I think positionless basketball should be the norm in developing kids. I'll adapt from some of sir Metta's ideas (start young) and sir C2Hamm's (teach everyone who wants to play). Before HS, everyone should be taught everything, regardless of height. Shooting, ballhandling, passing, lateral quickness, perimeter defense, screening, boxing out. Emphasize quickness over power as well. If you need strength, do not sacrifice quickness.

Sir IPC,

if your creating some documentation or a thesis type of a reading material, I think you should also consider that book about that "10,000 hours" that Sir Mets had mentioned before,

actually some of my barkada whose also a sports fanatics mentioned that book many years ago and it's very informative according to them but we all know during my or I should say our student days, we can't afford many things unless you are in the same breath as Richie Rich.

anyway, I really do hope our basketball culture as a whole may somehow adopt for the betterment.

 

[Metta]

Let me expound on my idea which I've discussed before. When I say start training young, it's about developing a vibrant and diverse youth sports culture. Not just basketball, but also other sports like soccer, volleyball, etc.

Dilution is a big part of our problem (6-foot centers). Those who are obviously not going to become tall should discover other sports while still young. Yes, everyone who gets into basketball should be taught all skills, but not everyone should be funneled into just basketball.

Tall guys won't be enabled to develop small-ball skills if there is an over-abundance of small players. And for those who have been around youth basketball, kids who are short/average height in adult life always outperforms kids who become very tall in adult life. They physically mature quicker and are more coordinated earlier. We have so many Julian Newmans.

Imagine if the uncle of Pacquiao (who first taught him boxing) was instead a basketball die-hard. If he was taught basketball instead, who knows, maybe because of his natural gifts and work ethic he may have become a Jimmy Alapag. But that is already a very optimistic best case scenario.

He went with boxing instead, and became a world legend.

 

[IPC]

I don't know if majority of us realize this but with the current line-up of Gilas, we are no longer being outsized by most of teams in Asia-Oceania basketball. Gilas size/height has really improved. People would point to 7-foot-1 Kai Sotto as the major factor for this height/size improvement but I think not to be taken for granted is the improvement in size/height in the 3 & 4 positions. We now have two 6-foot-7 natural fours in Carl Tamayo & Mason Amos & 6-foot-5 small forwards in Dwight Ramos, Calvin Oftana & Kevin Quiambao. Looking at Gilas current roster would reveal that there are only 3 players in CJ Perez, Chris Newsome & Iskati Thompson who stand below 6-foot-5 which I think is quite unprecedented in the history of Philippine national team.

I think the only position where we would be outsized by our Asian counterparts would be the shooting guard spot. I just hope that some 4 to 5 years from now we would be seeing 6-foot-4/6-foot-5 natural shooting guards in our national team.

6-4/6-5 versions of CJ Perez, Newsome & Jordan Heading would definitely be gravy.

We could use the size, length on defense, too. And they're not slow for their position.

Right now, from the group you mentioned, only Dwight, Skati, and Newsome are the reliable defenders. I'll add AJ Edu, as he looks like he has the speed to keep up in the perimeter, and of course JB.

Carl and Quiambao just might get there on defense, Mason has a ways to go, Oftana regressed in his man defense, and CJ, while aggressive, does gamble too much and gets lost on rotations.​

Now, we need to recruit and develop defensively versatile players from 2 to 4. Hopefully, we get 191-196cm (6'3"-6'5") off-guards, 196cm+ (6'5"+) SF's, and 198cm+ (6'6"+) PF's that can switch everywhere, fight in the post, and defend PnR's.​ Encourage positionless basketball, kamo.

 

[IPC]

I'm not sure if we're capable of "locally" developing elite international-level defensive big men. In order to develop them, they need to be going up against other elite big men as early as possible.

They are so rare in our country that they barely get the reps for a proper challenge. Add to that the athletic limitations.

Absent eligible filfors like AJ regularly popping up, we really have to have NPs that are defensively dominant.

Kai could have eventually been our Haddadi/Yao (enough for asian domination) but basketball has changed since then. Centers can't be slow anymore.

I always thought in our context, it's easier to develop go-to guy scorers (Castro, Terrence, Jimmy could score internationally) than bigs who can decently defend in the international level.​

If we want a go-to guy that much, why don't we develop them? There are a lot of scoring-minded Filipinos around. While it's a bit dependent on physical tools, skill (which is acquired through practice) matters in scoring as well.

 

[r1ck]

We have a ton of talented under 25 players in the country but its a shame that the SBP is not putting a team together and exposing them to international competition in preparation for whenever they get called up to the senior national team.

 

[BJ_Reloaded]

We have a ton of talented under 25 players in the country but its a shame that the SBP is not putting a team together and exposing them to international competition in preparation for whenever they get called up to the senior national team.

Sir R1ck,

I think one of the main reason why theirs only a small portion of the pie allocated towards our boys and girls team and majority of the cake was towards our Senior Mens team is because the SBP handled by the MVP group had only a limited budget for our National Federation.

now that the SMC group are officially involved in SBP as per previous interview on RSA maybe we could see some improvements down towards our grassroot development.

in fact, CTC and some of his coaching staff at SMC was seen doing some drills on our U16 and U18 teams that are preparing for their upcoming tournaments.

i dunno if it's already confirm but according to some, CTC was already assigned(?) as the Program Director of the SBP that was previously handled by CTB.

I'm a bit confuse, specifically on roles and responsibilities of a Program Director and an Executive Director.

I hope someone(please) educated me on this.

thank you.

 

[IPC]

I don't believe Kai is NBA material, it doesn't matter what route he took. He was a generation late. That is altogether a different topic.
Again, no one knows for sure. Claiming the Philippine route will have the worst result with absolute certainty lacks intellectual honesty.

The point of Kai and JMF is...our national team coach Tim Cone is actually considering it and even made it his starting lineup. He actually sees something in it and acted on it.

Of course it won't work against all teams. But it worked against the Mustangs last night, and with more reps and tweaks, it might work against certain types of teams. Who knows, they just started experimenting with it. It may work or it may not, but as of now, case is not closed.

We don't have the type of talents where we can trot out a starting five of world-beaters. Our best strategy is to come up with a team/identity that can consistently beat certain types of teams.

I mean, the Philippine route can cap our players' ceiling due to the level of play. Also, they might be played in positions which could affect their play in FIBA if they're Gilas prospects.

 

[Metta]

I mean, the Philippine route can cap our players' ceiling due to the level of play. Also, they might be played in positions which could affect their play in FIBA if they're Gilas prospects.

I'm pretty sure you've noticed by now that I'm a proponent of "playing up." No argument there.

My discussion of Kai was with another poster who was thinking in absolutes. Considering how his path transpired, maybe staying put at 16 could've worked out better. But the point is...no one knows for sure.

 

[IPC]

I'm pretty sure you've noticed by now that I'm a proponent of "playing up." No argument there.

My discussion of Kai was with another poster who was thinking in absolutes. Considering how his path transpired, maybe staying put at 16 could've worked out better. But the point is...no one knows for sure.

Sir Sikatrix has had that position for quite some time too. Not just with Kai, but with other youth prospects.

 

[Sikatrix]

Sir Sikatrix has had that position for quite some time too. Not just with Kai, but with other youth prospects.

The way I see it if we have enough prospects at high levels. Some have to hit. But its just one at a time, the weight of expectations becomes a problem as seen with Kobe and Kai.

Basically Im treating high level basketball like getting draft picks. No guarantee they would hit but at least they are in an environment wherein they could theoretically hit.

 

[Metta]

Sir Sikatrix has had that position for quite some time too. Not just with Kai, but with other youth prospects.

I have no problem with anyone having that position.

With Kai though, we have the benefit of hindsight. He was not ready at 16. We should've known better (and perhaps Tab realized this) pinoy bigs are notorious late-bloomers, what more a 7'3 skinny pinoy. Could he have developed better if he stayed with admu? (then maybe level up after a few years)...no one knows for sure.

Therein lies my disagreement with your Sir Sikatrix, he's absolutely certain that Kai would not have developed better if he stayed.

 

[IPC]

I have no problem with anyone having that position.

With Kai though, we have the benefit of hindsight. He was not ready at 16. We should've known better (and perhaps Tab realized this) pinoy bigs are notorious late-bloomers, what more a 7'3 skinny pinoy. Could he have developed better if he stayed with admu? (then maybe level up after a few years)...no one knows for sure.

Therein lies my disagreement with your Sir Sikatrix, he's absolutely certain that Kai would not have developed better if he stayed.

I just call some of the seniors here "sir." Just a form of addressing. I'm not that old, I graduated from college just 5 years ago.

 

[Sikatrix]

I have no problem with anyone having that position.

With Kai though, we have the benefit of hindsight. He was not ready at 16. We should've known better (and perhaps Tab realized this) pinoy bigs are notorious late-bloomers, what more a 7'3 skinny pinoy. Could he have developed better if he stayed with admu? (then maybe level up after a few years)...no one knows for sure.

Therein lies my disagreement with your Sir Sikatrix, he's absolutely certain that Kai would not have developed better if he stayed.

Its not that Im certain that things would end up better for Kai. The only thing Im certain of is that the more prospects we have in high level basketball the more likely some of them are gonna hit.

Vis a vis, sticking any prospect at a lower level like Kai and KQ is just harmful long term. Less lottery picks basically.

 

[Metta]

Its not that Im certain that things would end up better for Kai. The only thing Im certain of is that the more prospects we have in high level basketball the more likely some of them are gonna hit.

Vis a vis, sticking any prospect at a lower level like Kai and KQ is just harmful long term. Less lottery picks basically.

That was not your argument before. I've been a long time proponent of playing up here, probably the first to use the term "play up mentality" here.

It's cool then that you now agree that no one knows for sure what was best for Kai. Which is the point I was trying to make.

IMO, with the benefit of hindsight, Kai played up "too soon." He had an identity problem. He went for the "unicorn" type of 7-footer (Porzingis, Chet, Wemby). He failed to realize that you need to be training in guard skills waaay earlier for that. On top of that, you have to be training your body to move a certain way from an early age (he took basketball seriously I believe around 12-13, which is too late). And since he can't really be the unicorn type, he has to have strength. And that is why he played up too soon, he needed to physically/mentally mature first.

He's only now finding the right balance of skill and strength that works for him. No doubt that he should "play up." But (again no one knows for sure) if he stayed with admu, and got physically and mentally mature for a few years...and then later on played up in D1 (like Japeth) or moved to Europe...things might have worked out better.

 

[Metta]

I just call some of the seniors here "sir." Just a form of addressing. I'm not that old, I graduated from college just 5 years ago.

I see, it really seems based on posts that a lot of you are young. I may sound preachy, but it comes from actual personal experience with real coaches and real players.

It's cool though that Sikatrix sticks with debating ideas.

 

[Sikatrix]

That was not your argument before. I've been a long time proponent of playing up here, probably the first to use the term "play up mentality" here.

It's cool then that you now agree that no one knows for sure what was best for Kai. Which is the point I was trying to make.

IMO, with the benefit of hindsight, Kai played up "too soon." He had an identity problem. He went for the "unicorn" type of 7-footer (Porzingis, Chet, Wemby). He failed to realize that you need to be training in guard skills waaay earlier for that. On top of that, you have to be training your body to move a certain way from an early age (he took basketball seriously I believe around 12-13, which is too late). And since he can't really be the unicorn type, he has to have strength. And that is why he played up too soon, he needed to physically/mentally mature first.

He's only now finding the right balance of skill and strength that works for him. No doubt that he should "play up." But (again no one knows for sure) if he stayed with admu, and got physically and mentally mature for a few years...and then played up in D1 (like Japeth) or moved to Europe...things might have worked out better.

If youve been here for a long time you'd realize that my position has always been to focus on youth development and with Australia of 20 years as my ideal program.

Australia sent a ton of players to D1. Basically developed a partnership with Saint Marys. Not all of them hit but now they are a top 5 country.

Easier said then done obviously. For one, Australia is a first world country so many of there prospects can afford D1 over pro offers.


​​​

 

[Metta]

Whether Gemao finds further success in the US or not, for me him going there was a good choice. He was physically ready when he moved and he has a "dawg" mentality. A totally different type of 16 year old compared to Kai.

Too bad his hindrance seems to be financial (which is immediately easier to get in the Philippines).

 

[Metta]

I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. For me, it circles back to improving our youth sports culture. It would have done wonders for Sharma if at age 5-7 he already started playing any physical sport, anything with running, jumping, different movements (heck it can even be dancing) anything that he enjoys. He would be moving more fluidly and quicker by now.

At around age 10 (the latest), teach potentially tall kids to dribble. Nothing fancy, just simple and effective ball-handling. Learning to dribble early gets you a leg up on being allowed to play point. Also at around age 10 you can teach most kids any difficult skill (like off-hand finishing) within 3-4 months. At age 5-10 no need for pro-trainers or difficult drills, just playful practices.

If a kid does this and becomes extremely tall, his chances for elite levels goes up. Then at right before HS, if he really loves basketball, then that is the time to get serious. At that point he should already have the necessary skills, and a body/mind that is wired to be more athletic. At that time it is up to how much the kid wants it and let nature take its course.

Something I posted a long time ago.

Since Kai wanted to go the "unicorn" route, this was the basic minimum he should've done. However, the realistic things that nba unicorns is much more hardcore. Add to that the benefit that they have more athletic genes.

I've seen the age-trajectory above work for multiple guys to reach D1. To reach the nba though, you have to be obsessed with getting better.