Greece-FYROM quarrel: What do the people think?

[Kalashnikov]

And no Greek has given me a satisfactory answer to any of my concerns, which doesn't surprise me, because they have nothing to justify their international bullying.

The answer is there and I have given it to you hundreds of times so far. If you want to listen, you are more than welcome. If you don't, there is really nothing else anyone can say or do. Don't assume that there's no reply. It's just that we're tired of repeating the same things over and over again.

So, here it goes again, one last time. The term Macedonia is not yours. You cannot monopolise the term on your own. Just like you changed your flag, which had a symbol that you had no rights on using, in the very same way, you shall eventually change your name.

Greece has done it's part on the negotiation procedure by shifting from the hard 'no macedonia in the name' policy to a 'macedonia with a geographical or regional prefix'.
Now it is up to FYROM to do its part.

P.S. Nationalism and shauvinism is what's dragging balkans behind. And last time I checked, the only extreme-right leadership in the balkans, was the one of FYROM. So, save the lecture please...

 

[Supply&Demand2]

The answer is there and I have given it to you hundreds of times so far. If you want to listen, you are more than welcome. If you don't, there is really nothing else anyone can say or do. Don't assume that there's no reply. It's just that we're tired of repeating the same things over and over again.

If you're not up for this debate, why do you continue to waste the time of 2 million people?

you shall eventually change your name.

This is the ultimate flaw of Greek foreign policy. You do realize that this is not possible, right?

The term Macedonia is not yours. You cannot monopolise the term on your own.

Yes, the term is ours. That doesn't mean it is not yours either. It is possible for us both to use it, you know.. but here comes the dose of Balkan nationalism..

Now it is up to FYROM to do its part.

We've done our part. We're now waiting for Greece to look at their calendar and find it is 2011, and not 1911.

P.S. Nationalism and shauvinism is what's dragging balkans behind. And last time I checked, the only extreme-right leadership in the balkans, was the one of FYROM. So, save the lecture please...

I find the notion of nationalist parties in the Balkans laughable. EVERY party is nationalist. How many major Greek parties run a platform of 'who cares what Macedonia is called, let them choose'? How many Serb parties say 'meh, let Kosovo decide if they should be independent or not'? If they exist, they're fringe groups and unpopular. The thing is that basic nationalism has seeped into common thought, ie Kosovo is Serbia and Macedonia is Greece is so ingrained into peoples minds that it's not even considered nationalism anymore.

 

[Kalashnikov]

Don't twist my words just because of something you've heard from someone else...
A large part of Macedonia is a large part of Greece. This is how we call the geographical region, split in 3 perfectures. Macedonia is not Greece or vice versa.
Go and name whatever part of your territory is Macedonia as a nice perfecture and find a proper name for the rest of the country, cause -and I repeat- you don't, and never will own the term Macedonia.

Select a name that is not anyone else's territory and you shall immediatelly realise that nobody gives a damn how you're called in the end.

But, you prefer living in isolation. It's fine by me.

 

[Victorious2]

I know that most among us (even Macedonian Slavs) don't take the antiquisation policy of the government of the FYR of Macedonia all too seriously, but I wanted to post a short comment of Robin Lane Fox, an Oxford professor specialized in Greek and Roman history, who commented on the cultural heritage on of Ancient Macedon.



This is simply an elaboration of a point I made in an earlier post when I stated that, among historians, journalists and politicians, the antiquisation policy of the FYR of Macedonia has increased more sympathy for the perspective of the Greek government.

 

[WirelessBrain2]

Is this the one who called Macedonia stupid ? If so you can post his picture in your house and admire him for defending your issue.

 

[Victorious2]

Is this the one who called Macedonia stupid ? If so you can post his picture in your house and admire him for defending your issue.

You're trying to kill the messenger because you don't like the message.

He said that "those people in Skopje (referring to the political elite) are ignorant and outrageous by claiming that their country is Macedon (Ancient Macedonia) and the homeland of Alexander the Great." Historically what he says is entirely correct and not a matter of dispute.

There are increasingly similar remarks by academics all over the world and they are a reaction to the antiquisation process in your country.

 

[Supply&Demand2]

You're trying to kill the messenger because you don't like the message.

He said that "those people in Skopje (referring to the political elite) are ignorant and outrageous by claiming that their country is Macedon (Ancient Macedonia) and the homeland of Alexander the Great." Historically what he says is entirely correct and not a matter of dispute.

There are increasingly similar remarks by academics all over the world and they are a reaction to the antiquisation process in your country.

I don't think he was referring only to the political elite... he doesn't come across as a guy immersed in this issue. As you said, ancient history is not a matter of dispute. We're talking about recent history and international law/rights, and this is where Greece loses and we have experts on our side too.

Victor Friedman is one of the world's leading scholars on Balkan linguistics, won awards in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Albania etc. He says:

There is no real compromise. There can’t be. Think about it: if a thief comes up to you and holds a gun to your head and says ‘give me your money,’ do you say, ‘I’ll give you half,’ and call that a compromise? That’s Greece. They are trying to destroy Macedonia’s identity, plain and simple.

Note that no one on the Macedonian side is saying that Greeks cannot call themselves Macedonians, or their province Macedonia. But they never call themselves as such out of this context- they are, to themselves, Greeks first and foremost. So nobody actually needs the name Macedonia, and no one needs to call themselves Macedonians for their primary identity, except for these people in this small country that is not a threat to anyone.

...

If the Greeks had just left the Macedonians alone to begin with, there would have been fewer such problems, or at least greater capacity to deal with the existing ones. But it was the Greek government (especially after 1991) and the Serbian government (especially after 1981) who exacerbated most of the problems, for their own purposes.

And most forecasts say we're going to win that court case coming up. I think Oxford did a trial version of it and also had us as winners.

 

[qiangdade2]

I don't think he was referring only to the political elite... he doesn't come across as a guy immersed in this issue. As you said, ancient history is not a matter of dispute. We're talking about recent history and international law/rights, and this is where Greece loses and we have experts on our side too.

Victor Friedman is one of the world's leading scholars on Balkan linguistics, won awards in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Albania etc. He says:



And most forecasts say we're going to win that court case coming up. I think Oxford did a trial version of it and also had us as winners.

question: would you have a problem with it if greece would want now to rename the entire country (greece) as "macedonia"?

 

[Victorious2]

Yes, we agree. History is not a matter of dispute, but I think that your people don't simply want your country to be referred to as, Macedonia, just for the sake of it. They aspire a historical dimension in their identity. And this is something which will be confronting your people for generations to come. The increasingly more literate people of the FYR of Macedonia will be looking at the statues of the ancient historical figures and they will have a hollow feeling inside. This is very demoralizing for the psyche a nation. In the end, the name will be a curse, rather than a blessing.

The courts decision, whatever it will be, will not have a say in the name negotiations. They will not end for years to come, regardless of the outcome.

 

[Victorious2]

question: would you have a problem with it if greece would want now to rename the entire country (greece) as "macedonia"?

Indeed, Greek Macedonia could secede from Greece. How will the country be named? Republic of Macedonia? Not possible. Republic of Greek Macedonia? Now that wouldn't be fair would it?

The truth of the matter is that both sides have their arguments and one side will not give in to the other. As I mentioned above. The argument won't end for years to come. I also think it will transform.

 

[Monolito2]

Macedonia wins in Hague.

Means that blocking Macedonia from Nato or EU will be considered as illegal.

Judges in Hague voted 49 against 1.

 

[Picek2]

Macedonia wins in Hague.

Means that blocking Macedonia from Nato or EU will be considered as illegal.

Judges in Hague voted 49 against 1.

conspiracy.. bloody EU and IMF gave financial help to Greece and in return got the ruling.. bloody bastards..

 

[Victorious2]

Macedonia wins in Hague.

Means that blocking Macedonia from Nato or EU will be considered as illegal.

Judges in Hague voted 49 against 1.

Not really, they said that Greece violated article 11 by objecting FYROM' accession to NATO in 2008, but they also said that they can not forbid Greece to exercise this right in the future. Also, the countries should continue with the negotiations in order to find a solution.

 

[Monolito2]

Yes and violating UN article 11 means that this is technical illegal.

Our media in Greece try to manipulate this loss, they won and we lost in the Hague court it is as simpel as that.

What we did is technical wrong and I did not need any court to tell me this to be honest.

They are wrong about the antique stuff but they are right about everything else. Our name is Greece theirs is Macedonia and I will accept it.

I did read Macedonian media with google translate today and It seems like they will ask for 850 milion euros. I have no clue how we can pay this ?!?.

This is money they lost between 2008 and 2011.

 

[qiangdade2]

Our media in Greece try to manipulate this loss, they won and we lost in the court it is as simpel as that.

What we did is technical wrong and I did not need any court to tell me this to be honest.

They are wrong about the antique stuff but they are right about everything else. Our name is Greece theirs is Macedonia and I will accept it.

I did read Macedonian media with google translate today and It seems like they will ask for 850 milion euros. I have no clue how we can pay this ?!?.

This is money they lost between 2008 and 2011.

your attempt to pass as a greek is hilarious at best. thumbs up

 

[Monolito2]

Not all Greek are hardcore fanatics even if it seems like it. People as me do exist. I try to be an european and I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Obvious is that they won and we lost today, we are technicaly wrong, should we just ignor it ?!?.

 

[qiangdade2]

Not all Greek are hardcore fanatics even if it seems like it. People as me do exist. I try to be an european and I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Obvious is that they won and we lost today, we are technicaly wrong, should we just ignor it ?!?.

not all greek are fanatics indeed, but you wouldn't know about this

 

[Monolito2]

Whatever.

 

[Victorious2]

Not all Greek are hardcore fanatics even if it seems like it. People as me do exist. I try to be an european and I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Obvious is that they won and we lost today, we are technicaly wrong, should we just ignor it ?!?.

Yes, all in all the vote was in favor of FYROM. That's also the position of the Greek media, but at the same time it is no drama for Greece. Besides, NATO already made an official statement that they will not change their position on FYROM's accession. Although I am sure that FYROM will try and use this as a negotiating tool.

As for the article, Greece could file a complaint about some articles FYROM violated. Like officially naming itself 'Republic of Macedonia' without solving the dispute with Greece. In this case the court will rule that FYROM made a violation of a certain article. But FYROM will surely not change its position. The court simply confirms if an article is being violated. But don't worry, Greece is preoccupied with other issues at the moment.

 

[qiangdade2]

Whatever.

exactly. take the easy way out. i am also assuming this was your last post ever in this forum monoilitio (that's probably too much for you to understand as it won't show up in google translate). bye troll

yes if greece files a complaint to hague about how fyrom violated the interim agreement by one-sidedly changing the name, then greece is gonna win also.