Greece-FYROM quarrel: What do the people think?

[Kalashnikov]

We just need to live peacefully as neighbors and nothing else matters.

Obviously!

But, the stupid issue is still (for some unknown reason, still unresolved) and this makes the debate real.

 

[Kalashnikov]

Too late, drugar. We are not in the process of naming ourselves. The people of the Republic of Macedonia have decided what they want; the onus is on you to respect their wishes.

The people, represented by your government, have accepted an INTERIM name until a final name is commonly agreed. And this is not going to change any time soon if you don't accept the fact that eventually a new name will have to be selected.

I'm just saying that the status quo was not always such. Northern Greece is mostly Greek now, but back then, it was mostly Slavic. If you weren't militarily awarded with the territory in 1911, you might well continue to be a minority there.

Perhaps yes. But, it was a military victory. Greeks won, supported by their considerable local population in Macedonia. Bulgarians/Ottomans lost. why is this a paradox of history is beyond me...

but I'm just trying to say that today's Greek Macedonians are NOT the same as ancient Macedonians. So much has happened between then and now.

On what basis? Genetic? Perhaps... We can't tell for sure until we have some good DNA sample. However, historically and culturally, modern Greeks are as closely related to the ancient Macedonians as they are related to Ancient Athens, Sparta, Thessalia, Ionia and the rest of the ancient Greek world territories.

I think our current name is fine.

We can agree to disagree

 

[WirelessBrain2]

Obviously!

But, the stupid issue is still (for some unknown reason, still unresolved) and this makes the debate real.

In my opinion this is Greece fault and they are the only to be blamed,they had their chances in the early nineties in the last century.Now there is no chance by any means after all the nationality,ethnicity,racist and etc comments and some other problems which both countires have mutually(it`s from both sides without any doubt) but I think that Greece is pushing too much for this name and my opinion is that never Macedonia and Greece will made agreement.Howewer I`m still believing in brighter future and this problem to be resolved as quickly as possible and both countries to be satisfied!

 

[Kalashnikov]

In my opinion this is Greece fault and they are the only to be blamed,they had their chances in the early nineties in the last century.

tell me about it....stupid, stupid times...

 

[WirelessBrain2]

I have one question in my mind.Why did Greece refused Nimetz proposal in 2005 when he said that Macedonia could be called like that from countires which have strongly supported and recognized her and Greece and the others countries which haven`t recognized Macedonia to call them like Republic of Macedonia-Skopje.I think that the proposal was the best and that such proposal will never come again.

 

[Kalashnikov]

I have one question in my mind.Why did Greece refused Nimetz proposal in 2005 when he said that Macedonia could be called like that from countires which have strongly supported and recognized her and Greece and the others countries which haven`t recognized Macedonia to call them like Republic of Macedonia-Skopje.I think that the proposal was the best and that such proposal will never come again.

1) The aim is to have 1 name, for all uses. A simple, clean solution

2) Macedonia-Skopje is anyhow an incompatible name with all the negotiation process. It was clear that Greece would only be willing to discuss a name with a geographical or regional prefix as 'North' or 'Vardar' etc.

I'm not saying that the above are right or wrong. I'm just telling you why that Nimetz proposal was rejected.

 

[WirelessBrain2]

1) The aim is to have 1 name, for all uses. A simple, clean solution

2) Macedonia-Skopje is anyhow an incompatible name with all the negotiation process. It was clear that Greece would only be willing to discuss a name with a geographical or regional prefix as 'North' or 'Vardar' etc.

I'm not saying that the above are right or wrong. I'm just telling you why that Nimetz proposal was rejected.

The dignity and identity of an entire nation is at stake here that cannot be compromised.Also day by day the partners of Greece are losing patience with them with the debt crisis and my opinion is that Greece will have bigger pressure from the bigger and important countries.

P.S. Gonna take a nap..

 

[Supply&Demand2]

The people, represented by your government, have accepted an INTERIM name until a final name is commonly agreed. And this is not going to change any time soon if you don't accept the fact that eventually a new name will have to be selected.

We have a final name, accepted by the people. From this point on, a normal state would say "The people want this name, and as the people are the source of power within their borders, we will recognize this state as the people indicate." I don't see how this could be any other way, at least in the 21st century.

why is this a paradox of history is beyond me...

Maybe I am using the term wrong.. it's just an interesting thing to think about. The annexation of Greek Macedonia was pretty much a race between Bulgaria and Greece.. whoever gets there first makes a pretty good case for annexation. If the Bulgarians were a little faster in getting to Thessaloniki, we'd live in quite a different region. And it really did save this supposed connection between modern Greek Macedonians and ancient Macedonians.. One British observer in the early 1900s (Henry Brailsford) declared "the Greeks have lost Macedonia."

However, historically and culturally, modern Greeks are as closely related to the ancient Macedonians as they are related to Ancient Athens, Sparta, Thessalia, Ionia and the rest of the ancient Greek world territories.

There's nothing wrong with cultural ties, but they are quite fickle. I can move my family to Greece and within a few generations we will be Greek and then somehow related to ancient Macedonians, even thought we aren't right now.

Anyway, it is too late.. I'll respond to your next post later. Night all

 

[Victorious2]

There's nothing wrong with cultural ties, but they are quite fickle. I can move my family to Greece and within a few generations we will be Greek and then somehow related to ancient Macedonians, even thought we aren't right now.

A newcomer who settles in a region is still not related to the pre-existing population. His/her descendants on the other hand will be. Provided they will have intermixed with the local population for a couple of generations, adapt the customs, language, culture, in some cases religion etc. They would in this case be the cut-rate descendants of the pre-existing population.

day by day the partners of Greece are losing patience with them with the debt crisis and my opinion is that Greece will have bigger pressure from the bigger and important countries.

The last thing the European partners of Greece want is to piss off the Greek people with some sort of punishment over the name of Macedonia. They want to avoid the subject at any cost. Especially now during the crisis. If anything, the EU at this moment needs unity and solidarity rather than disunity and punishment. There are representatives from Brussels which are intermingling with the financial affairs of Greece. It would be a mistake to intermingle with other political affairs as well. Especially if they risk destabilizing the global economy. If anything, I think that this issue will be put on ice for the coming years.

 

[Kalashnikov]

The dignity and identity of an entire nation is at stake here that cannot be compromised.Also day by day the partners of Greece are losing patience with them with the debt crisis and my opinion is that Greece will have bigger pressure from the bigger and important countries.

P.S. Gonna take a nap..

Ok, let's take this one-by-one. Obviously, the financial crisis in Greece is not going to make things easier. The attention is shifted in more important tasks, and the name issue has fallen back in priority. The same stands for the EU partners who don't give much importance in enlargement talks in the middle of the crisis.

I want to be realistic. I don't know which name would not give the impression in FYROM that their dignity and identity has been compromised. But I can tell you that ANY Greek government that agrees to a name 'Republic of Macedonia' would be out of office before they even get the chance to sign it.

So...

 

[Kalashnikov]

If the Bulgarians were a little faster in getting to Thessaloniki, we'd live in quite a different region.

You know...there was a big clash at that time between the Greek King and PM on the strategy. The king wanted to move towards Monastir (Bitola) while the PM insisted on moving to Thessaloniki. The PM won the debate and the Greek army entered Thessaloniki.

Have it been the other way around...who knows? perhaps now you could have been just as Greek as I am.

But other than that, even in the hypothetical worst case scenario, that Greece lost entirely the war, and Bulgarians seized all of Macedonia, not much would have changed in terms of history.

Greek culture endured Roman occupation, Slav settlement, Turkish occupation for over 1000 years, and still preserved their language and culture. What more harm could some more years of Bulgarian occupation do?

 

[Supply&Demand2]

Greek culture endured Roman occupation, Slav settlement, Turkish occupation for over 1000 years, and still preserved their language and culture. What more harm could some more years of Bulgarian occupation do?

It's hard to predict what would happen, but it would be devastating for the Greek cause in Macedonia imo.

I don't know which name would not give the impression in FYROM that their dignity and identity has been compromised.

Dignity and identity are compromised when a people choose a name and are denied it by outside powers.

If you want a say in the name: http://mlrc.org.mk/law/l001.htm Naturalization requirements are in Article 7.

 

[Kalashnikov]

If you want a say in the name: http://mlrc.org.mk/law/l001.htm Naturalization requirements are in Article 7.

out of topic, but does Mccalleb even remotely adhere to this? (15 consecutive years of residenship in the country?)

And again, it's your right to be called however you like provided that you don't step on anyone's toes. You could chose to be called Mudjavoodoo and nobody would give a damn!

You could've selected to be called:
- South Kosovo, the albanians would mind. The serbs even more!
- Western Bulgaria, the bulgarians would mind
- Northern Macedonia, the greeks would mind
- Extremely South Finland, even the relatively quiet and liberal Fins would definitely object.

Choosing a name whose ownership is at the very least 'disputed' is like asking for trouble. And in this case, yes, external actors have a say on your own affairs because this is international recognition we are talking about.

If you are so frustrated that another country tells you how you should be called, fine. Use the constitutional name for internal use and another commonly agreed name for international use.

 

[Supply&Demand2]

And again, it's your right to be called however you like provided that you don't step on anyone's toes. You could chose to be called Mudjavoodoo and nobody would give a damn!

Our name isn't 'Hellenic Republic', our flag isn't blue and white with a cross on it. The discomfort you feel in your toes is maybe from the shoes you are wearing.

Choosing a name whose ownership is at the very least 'disputed' is like asking for trouble.

It is the only one we have, and one in which we have developed over generations. If you want us to invent something else to fellate your nationalist wet dreams, then get back to me after drinking a nice, warm cup of shut-the-****-up.

If you are so frustrated that another country tells you how you should be called, fine. Use the constitutional name for internal use and another commonly agreed name for international use.

Both sides in this dispute have indicated that this isn't acceptable, and I agree with them.

 

[Victorious2]

I can understand some frustration the people from the FYR of Macedonia have, but they must understand that the issue is not as simple as it seems. Macedonia is a geographical region encompassing four modern nations with unique identities and sub-identities. In this highly explosive region such as the Balkans there are traditional conflicting forces embedded in the culture of its people and this should never be taken lightly. Neglecting the position of any party which also holds claims on the region of Macedonia is a very dangerous and irresponsible stance to take. The "we have the right to call ourselves whatever we want, what do you care?" discourse is not fruitful and does not bring us closer to a solution.

Both Greece and FYR of Macedonia have been irresponsible and acted like cry-babies at times, but last decade the Greeks were more willing to find a solution while the Gruevski government seemed unwilling to compromise. Now we seem to have missed a window of opportunity, because it is not an impossibility that a new Greek government will take a harder stance once again. The conservative opposition leader, Samaras, who is probably going to win the next elections seems willing to do just that.

 

[Adon2]

I can understand some frustration the people from the FYR of Macedonia have, but they must understand that the issue is not as simple as it seems. Macedonia is a geographical region encompassing four modern nations with unique identities and sub-identities. In this highly explosive region such as the Balkans there are traditional conflicting forces embedded in the culture of its people and this should never be taken lightly. Neglecting the position of any party which also holds claims on the region of Macedonia is a very dangerous and irresponsible stance to take. The "we have the right to call ourselves whatever we want, what do you care?" discourse is not fruitful and does not bring us closer to a solution.

Both Greece and FYR of Macedonia have been irresponsible and acted like cry-babies at times, but last decade the Greeks were more willing to find a solution while the Gruevski government seemed unwilling to compromise. Now we seem to have missed a window of opportunity, because it is not an impossibility that a new Greek government will take a harder stance once again. The conservative opposition leader, Samaras, who is probably going to win the next elections seems willing to do just that.

The same person who created the problem in the beginning. Probably, without his "patriotic acts", the name would have been a forgotten issue by now. "Patriots" like him do great damage to their countries usually.

Anyway, politicians in Greece are what Greek people deserve. They are neither visionaries nor intellectuals. They are not very clever and they don't dare to be even pragmatists. And FYROMacedonian politicians are (generally) much worse (only the extreme right-wing Greek politicians are comparable with them). But this nationalism is mainly a consequence of the Greek policy, especially when Samaras was "in charge".

 

[Supply&Demand2]

The same Samaras who said: "an independent Macedonian state is hardly viable" and "the ghost of the non-existent Macedonian people". The same guy who talked to Milosevic about koina sinora me ti Servia. I'm beginning to think I'll die before this dispute will end.

The "we have the right to call ourselves whatever we want, what do you care?" discourse is not fruitful and does not bring us closer to a solution.

It should be the be-all-end-all of this dispute, but color me shocked that Greece would rather give us thanatos than eleftheria.

but last decade the Greeks were more willing to find a solution while the Gruevski government seemed unwilling to compromise.

No Macedonian government will 'compromise' because they do not have the capacity to do so. And there has been no change in Greek policy; in the 90s you harmed our security and economy with embargo, conspiring with Serbian dictators, and not recognizing us, and you harmed our security and economy again in the 2000s with denying us EU and NATO membership. You continue to deny us a name of our choosing. Your 'willingness' to recognize us as quasi-Macedonians isn't good enough.

 

[Victorious2]

You continue to deny us a name of our choosing. Your 'willingness' to recognize us as quasi-Macedonians isn't good enough.

It seems you didn't understand my above post. You want to have your pie and eat it when it comes to this issue. I just stated that we missed an opportunity with Papandreou's government and this will now change.

 

[Supply&Demand2]

It seems you didn't understand my above post. You want to have your pie and eat it when it comes to this issue. I just stated that we missed an opportunity with Papandreou's government and this will now change.

And from what I can tell, no opportunity was missed.

 

[Supply&Demand2]

And no Greek has given me a satisfactory answer to any of my concerns, which doesn't surprise me, because they have nothing to justify their international bullying. The only reason they oppose is because of nationalism and old ideas which have long expired, and their attempts to mask these motives have been incredibly porous. They hide behind ancient history, but they ignore recent history, which again isn't a surprise, because going by recent history you wouldn't even think that these people invented democracy a few thousand years before. What do Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia, the three wolves of the Balkans, have in common? They all deny the democratic wishes of millions of people outside of their borders. They all drag the Balkans behind.