FIBA vs ULEB

[Terrorizer]

Btw, something to give the Fiba apologists a topic to think about. It is Fiba that would give just anyone with money an A-license... That's what Fiba from the very beginning wanted. Yet, the best European clubs didn't want to go with Fiba. Now Fiba argues with "sports" argumentation. Sure, in their dreams.

As far as I know, every competition which is run by FIBA, as corrupt, lazy-assed and ineffective as this organization certainly is, is based on sportive principle, eiether totally or overwhelmingly. National teams competitions, domestic leagues, all of which have a working promotion/relegation system based on sportive principle (as opposed to recent Jordi-allied creations like VTB or Adriatic leagues), international club competitions. Even their shameful experiments with 'wild cards' for highest briber (certainly, it perenially was Turkey) among the national teams are finally over. I'm judging by what I'm seeing. FIBA goes with sportive principle by word and by deed. Once it strays from this path, I'll be the first one to criticize it. IMG-bought Jordi and his fellow scum go for "profit before anything else" closed league model copied from NBA, a league which I despise passionately. I have no rose-tinted glasses if we talk about FIBA, but for me it's quite clear who is the lesser evil at this moment and in a near perspective.

I also like how you, being from a poor country which this "market system" should certainly ignore, is such a passionate apologist for it, inventing excuses why some team fom Belgrade (why not Partizan, by the way? they established much more of a presence in the EL during 2000s) should be there. Also I'm interested why you always talk shit about quality of Russian players pool and about Russian basketball tradition as a whole. Look up who had the most gold medals before dissolutions of both USSR and SFRY. And before our uninformed Lithuanian friends start all that bs with "but it was due to Lithuanians playing for Soviet occupiers" I recommend them to grasp a harsh reality that the times when Lithuanian players established a big presence in the Soviet national team were, in fact, times of its (moderate) decline. If we talk about really dominant Soviet teams of the 1960s, then there were some Estonian and Latvian players in those rosters but the only Lithuanian I can remeber was Modestas Paulauskas (who was a brilliant player, for sure). And also I guess that our medals at Euro-2011 and Oly-2012 were bought by powerful sponsors.

Well, I know this is not a topic for this but I've just refreshed my memories how many times leading European national teams were in Top 4 of Eurobaskets after Soviet Union's dissolution. There were 13 Eurobaskets since then. Russia went past quarterfinals five times. Lithuania also reached this stage five times. Spain is leading the way with ten appearances (never missed this stage since 1999), Yugoslavia/Serbia has seven, Greece and France both have six, Croatia, Germany and Italy all have three, Slovenia has two and both Macedonia and Turkey have just one appearance (the latter has achieved this feat on its home soil, for sure). Yet in the eyes of so many posters here, who have a supreme knowledge about European basketball, Baal included, Turkey and Russia are similar if a tradition of growing local players is concerned. Mysteries of life...

[Baal]

As far as I know, every competition which is run by FIBA, as corrupt, lazy-assed and ineffective as this organization certainly is, is based on sportive principle, eiether totally or overwhelmingly. National teams competitions, domestic leagues, all of which have a working promotion/relegation system based on sportive principle (as opposed to recent Jordi-allied creations like VTB or Adriatic leagues), international club competitions.

I also like how you, being from a poor country which this "market system" should certainly ignore, is such a passionate apologist for it, inventing excuses why some team fom Belgrade (why not Partizan, by the way? they established much more of a presence in the EL during 2000s) should be there. Also I'm interested why you always talk shit about quality of Russian players pool and about Russian basketball tradition as a whole.

Yet in the eyes of so many posters here, who have a supreme knowledge about European basketball, Baal included, Turkey and Russia are similar if a tradition of growing local players is concerned. Mysteries of life...

Just look at Fiba's first idea of BCL and your eyes might open. Their vision was far more elitist even than Bertomeus. They would sell their asses out for the top-clubs, yet they couldn' get them. Believe me, they would have let even a bs-club like London Towers into a European premier basketball league for money. It was only when failing to aquire the top clubs into their BCL that they developed a "sportive" vision of their champignon's league (intended error). And even then, their first idea was direct spots for German, Czech, Belgian and clubs from some other countries (I think even Estonia) which certainly are not traditional successful baketball countries. Excuse me, Croatian and Serbian league winners like Cedevita or Zvezda/Partizan would have to undergo qualifications while Nimburk (or any other Czech league winner) would have a direct spot?????? What bloody brainfart is this? This you call sportive? Maybe they changed latter model and now it's different, but their first envision of BCL was everything but sportive. A "little" detail that Fiba apologists tend to forget nowadays.

I do see a place for the reigning Serbian top team in a market oriented Euroeleague (btw, Partizan is not reigning and won't be again so fast). What Zvezda may lack in money it makes up with a huge fanbase (believe me, huge even in European frame), talented player base and more or less skillful scouting for less money than players actually are worth. O.K., without money we are condemned to the upper part of the lower half (i.e. places 9-12), but it is fun to take part and win against greats like Real (even in Madrid), Barcelona, Fenerbahce, Efes, Paok, Maccabi, CSKA, ... The only team Zvezda has never won against is our brothers from Olympiakos. Where do you see the fun and challenge to play against Nimburk and Oostende??? (Well, Partizan actually does prefer contrahents like Nimburk, Solnok, Prokom, Zielona Gora, but our special "customers"'are Spanish teams - more or less regularly Baskonia, Valencia, Unicaja, especially in the Radoniic era, and from time to time Barcelona and Real. We have also special regular customers in German teams like Bamberg and Bayern and in Italian team Armani). As a poor team from a small country we have quite some respectable and also regular wins against far more expensive teams and we get better every year. And I have to emphasize, not only in the group system, where you actually with something like two wins and twelve losses could get quite far, but in the new round robin system which represents a much higher challenge.

I did never say anything against the Russian pool of players, especially not in the pre-VTB era, but take a closer look a Russia's top-four teams like CSKA, Khimky, Lokomotiva, UNICS. How many Russian players do they have exactly? What is the proportion of imported and domestic players? And on which country does this proportion remind? I don't have anything against Russia or Russian teams. And it seems to me somehow that I was more concerned about Russia losing against Bosnia than you are.

It's quite simple, I am primarily concerned with Zvezda and the Serbian national team (I don't even pretend to be objective). I don't see Fiba in Zvezda's best interest (and especially not in my best interest to watch Zvezda playing against Real instead of watching them play against Nimburk or Oostende) and I don't see Fiba's qualification windows outside the summer pause in Serbian national team's best interest. And yes, I like a good show and flying circus but I can better relate to European teams than to NBA (well, I watch both, Euroleague and NBA, but I certainly don't watch champignon's league).

[Killer Bob]

We must not forget 1 important thing and that is, pool of basketball players. There’s limited number of athletic 2.00+ guys. You can maybe have 150 competitive football teams in Europe, but you will never have 150 competitive basketball teams. And on top of that the best European players are in Nba. If somebody thinks, how players from Europe and America, who are not good enough for Nba, will play in semiprofessional league for peanuts, because of love for the game, be my guest. If basketball in Europe won’t generate more money, only way is decline in quality. The only question is how to generate the money. I don’t believe games between powerhouses and teams like Olimpija, Cibona, Paok... can do that.
Btw. Fifa president Ceferin said Fifa should buy Fiba, when he heard that no money was made and/or give to participants in Eurobasket. He said it’s impossible that they cannot sell tv rights for more money. Buying Fiba was meant as a joke but still...

[Baal]

Talking about politics, I don't think that this divide has some really distinct political overtones. In case if someone is interested, I'm a left-winger, quite a radical, anti-capitalist one, well, to tell you the whole truth, an old commie of sorts Though there are some things on which culturally I'm quite conservative (being pro-life and anti-drugs, for example). Maybe, my worldview influences my opinions and sympathies in this 'basketball culture' (certainly, it does) ....

Well, there we are, now some things get clear. The division between you and me definitively has distinct political undertones, I am a liberal in any aspect (economically and otherwise). Actually, the "liberation" of Yugoslavia by the Partisans and Red Army in 1945 cost my family some 30+ million Euro alone in real estate in today's values (the bloody Nazis took most of what was portable but at least left the real estate). I definitively would have preferred a liberation by the Americans. And I do believe in the power, ability and initiative of the individual (or organization) to master his faith without state direction and backing, sports included, culture exempted. I don't think I need to explain my aversion against Partizan, it predates Vujosevic's era of manipulation, corruption and other misfit actions in Serbian basketball. Zvezda actually does have quite some pre-WWII history (the reds took an existing club, stadium and fanbase and just gave it another name, while Partizan is an artificial instant construct from 1945 by the hillbilly occupiers from the so-called people's army). So politics do affect views in sport sometimes. Fiba's fat-ass lazy aparatchicks that pretend to protect public interest but actually protect their rewarding positions, personal interests and laziness/incapability of doing something useful and in the interest of basketball actually do remind me a lot on bloody communism. Basketball doesn't need protection by Fiba, it needs to be protected against Fiba. Bertomeu at least is a clearly defined wiseguy not pretending to be something else. I don't like neither of them, wiseguys likewise as aparatchicks. But in comparison, the wiseguys at least could bring basketball a step further, the aparatchicks can only catapult it straight to the middle-ages. And it is far easier to get rid of a single undesired wiseguy individual than of aparatchicks.

That all said, I really would prefer a full privatization of Serbian clubs or at least Zvezda, let's say as shareholding corporation on the stock market like Bayern Munich, even if this means that post-communist tycoon and wiseguy Covic takes the club into his pocket (well, informally, he already took the club). As shareholding corporation one day we can get rid of an individual while it is hard to get rid of the state. Unfortunately, there are quite a few influences of politics on sport, not only in individual views. The best is to let every club define its' own faith on the market, the capable will survive and flourish, the others will go back to amateurism. Fiba can handle the amateurs.

[Killer Bob]

Well, there we are, now some things get clear. The division between you and me definitively has distinct political undertones, I am a liberal in any aspect (economically and otherwise). Actually, the "liberation" of Yugoslavia by the Partisans and Red Army in 1945 cost my family some 30+ million Euro alone in real estate in today's values (the bloody Nazis took most of what was portable but at least left the real estate). I definitively would have preferred a liberation by the Americans. And I do believe in the power, ability and initiative of the individual (or organization) to master his faith without state direction and backing, sports included, culture exempted. I don't think I need to explain my aversion against Partizan, it predates Vujosevic's era of manipulation, corruption and other misfit actions in Serbian basketball. Zvezda actually does have quite some pre-WWII history (the reds took an existing club, stadium and fanbase and just gave it another name, while Partizan is an artificial instant construct from 1945 by the hillbilly occupiers from the so-called people's army). So politics do affect views in sport sometimes. Fiba's fat-ass lazy aparatchicks that pretend to protect public interest but actually protect their rewarding positions, personal interests and laziness/incapability of doing something useful and in the interest of basketball actually do remind me a lot on bloody communism. Basketball doesn't need protection by Fiba, it needs to be protected against Fiba. Bertomeu at least is a clearly defined wiseguy not pretending to be something else. I don't like neither of them, wiseguys likewise as aparatchicks. But in comparison, the wiseguys at least could bring basketball a step further, the aparatchicks can only catapult it straight to the middle-ages. And it is far easier to get rid of a single undesired wiseguy individual than of aparatchicks.

That all said, I really would prefer a full privatization of Serbian clubs or at least Zvezda, let's say as shareholding corporation on the stock market like Bayern Munich, even if this means that post-communist tycoon and wiseguy Covic takes the club into his pocket (well, informally, he already took the club). As shareholding corporation one day we can get rid of an individual while it is hard to get rid of the state. Unfortunately, there are quite a few influences of politics on sport, not only in individual views. The best is to let every club define its' own faith on the market, the capable will survive and flourish, the others will go back to amateurism. Fiba can handle the amateurs.

I totally agree with you.

[GatorsGators]

Well, Zvezda does not have an A-license in Euroleague. But Zvezda is confident and capable of getting its' entry by winning the Aba-league. So, Zvezda qualifies the sports way, what's wrong with that? Isn't that exactly what Fiba apologists want?

And what does it mean Jordi defenders? Euroleague is an institution beyond the wiseguy Bertomeu. Besides, the Fiba wiseguys are not any better than Bertomeu, they are just less successful. Another thing, Fiba apologists seem to be quite familiar with Bertomeu calling him Jordi. I don't call anyone I don't know or I don't like by his first name.

Zvezda may not have an A-liscense but you get an automatic Euroleague bid if you win the ABA and there are three-and-a-half decent teams depending on whether or not Partizan decides to be good.

Whereas if you're a non-Fener/Efes team in Turkey you need to win EC. No matter what. Sorry BJS, Dacka, and GS (even though they're a mess right now), you can demonstrate that you're better than Efes in your domestic league. Doesn't matter.

I understand that FIBA would probably be even worse about including teams from "draw" countries that don't care about basketball or don't have good basketball infrastructure (GB/France). But at the same point, giving only certain leagues automatic slots sucks considering the second best domestic league doesn't have one.

[iraz]

I'm judging by what I'm seeing. FIBA goes with sportive principle by word and by deed. Once it strays from this path, I'll be the first one to criticize it.

In reality FIBA does nothing of the kind. Even if we put aside the first plan of its BCL based on the A-lisences system, even now in the BSL there are stake-holders, who get some benefits, and non-stake-holders, who - as you may guess - represent the majority of the countries participating there. By the way, Russia is NOT a stake-holder. And in my opinion the format of the BSL is the essence of what you like to call retarded.
And returning to the main point, I'd like to ask you: What is the point of all this war? If you like FIBA and Baumann so much (rather disgusting person in my opinion, you have the BCL, so you may be happy. And those who prefer the EL can follow it not bothering so much about sports principles, just enjoying the game. Why is it really so important for you and other Jordyhaters to prove that Fiba is based on some moral principles in contrast to the EL? Moral principles cannot compensate for FIBA's total impotence where organization of a European league is concerned.

[Loggo]

still the BCL model for me is something completely retarded and I would never support something like that.

And in my opinion the format of the BSL is the essence of what you like to call retarded.

So, apparently, every single European club competition in every single sport -from football to water polo- is "retarded".

Good to know.

[gockun]

Zvezda may not have an A-liscense but you get an automatic Euroleague bid if you win the ABA and there are three-and-a-half decent teams depending on whether or not Partizan decides to be good.

Whereas if you're a non-Fener/Efes team in Turkey you need to win EC. No matter what. Sorry BJS, Dacka, and GS (even though they're a mess right now), you can demonstrate that you're better than Efes in your domestic league. Doesn't matter.

I understand that FIBA would probably be even worse about including teams from "draw" countries that don't care about basketball or don't have good basketball infrastructure (GB/France). But at the same point, giving only certain leagues automatic slots sucks considering the second best domestic league doesn't have one.

Ok, to a certain point I can agree with that. On the other hand you are overestimating Turkish league. Dacka will be a non-factor next year (their agrement with Dogus will totally end) GS and BJK are far from EL level, plus they can not gurantee they can sustain the level they have Remember KSK winner of the BSL easily got ass-kicked next year in EL ( even though they had doubled budget considering previous season). Take a look back see the champions of BSL apart from FB and Efes , Ksk with Sarıca, BJK and GS with Ataman, when Ataman and Sarıca left those clubs after their jobs done, they left wrecks behind them by the means of economical standpoint.

[GatorsGators]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying about the Turkish League, but at the same point, it's still a bit scummy to give automatic EL spots to certain leagues when it seems like those spots aren't decided by quality but instead are decided by overall league-wide loyalty to ULEB.

BJK may not be "EL quality" but if that's true then neither is Efes. BJK beat Efes in the semifinals easily last year and Efes is worse this year. BJK is the favorites to win CL (not arguing on behalf of the overall quality of CL; there are some bad teams in CL and EC is still the better competition). If they earn a spot in their league, they've earned their spot as much as Zvezda or Bamberg.

And, yeah, Dacka will probably go back to being irrelevant soon but it'll be interesting to see what they do next year if they win EC and get the EL spot. They'll lose Blatt and Jujuan Johnson definitely but Wilbekin is technically on contract for another year for over one million but I can't see them paying that.

And, yes, GS is a mess right now but if they win their league they've earned a spot, which is my point. Yeah, Fener and Efes have better infrastructure and history and it'd be a solid bet that either one will win every BSL title over the next ten years but the league just isn't open which is a problem. Dogus Group going from Dacka to Fener was kind of a kick in the nuts in that regard although it makes sense from a business perspective.

[Picek]

Why is it really so important for you and other Jordyhaters to prove that Fiba is based on some moral principles in contrast to the EL?

And why is it important to you to prove otherwise?

[Baal]

If they earn a spot in their league, they've earned their spot as much as Zvezda or Bamberg.

You are whining too much about the Turkish representatives in Euroleague. Turkey has already two representatives with guaranteed spots, what's next - a guaranteed spot for the winner of Turkish league or for the third place if Efes and Fener are second and first? How many Turkish and Spanish clubs need to be present in the Euroleague? 16? The whole Aba-league, that represents Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro has only one spot in Euroleague and that's for you a problem? For a few years Zvezda won regularly the Aba-league, but it could have been different. Except for this year where both teams have almost equal budgets (5,4m Cedevita, 5,6m Zvezda), Cedevita always had a bit higher budget than Zvezda (7m to 5m) and could have very well been the winner of the Aba-league. This year Zvezda could very well loose the Aba-league and ,thus, loose its' spot in Euroleague. What does it mean only certain leagues get automatic slots? Turkey already has two guaranteed teams in Euroleague. And these are the two internationally most renowned and most popular teams (many on the Balkans like to watch Fener, me included, I'm not sure how many would watch Besiktas or Galata). If you want to discuss automatic slots and decision bz quality, rather have a look a champignons' league's slots, that defy any basketball logic and then criticize Euroleague. I'm quite sure that Czech basketball league and similar simply burst with quality and attractiveness for the audience.

[GatorsGators]

The problem is that the "guaranteed spots" for Turkey are A-licenses that never change. Similar to Milano having an A-license in Italy. It just renders the domestic competitions pointless in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not arguing that you should take away the Adriatic's slot in the EL. Not at all. But there should be some consistency regarding what qualifies a team for the EL and what doesn't. Zvezda earning their spot in the EL is great and I'm not downplaying that Cedevita is a solid club and that winning the ABA is a nice achievement. But if, say, BJS or Gala or Dacka wins their league, that'd be a nice achievement as well and they wouldn't be rewarded. If you're worried about Turkey getting too many teams, maybe you should refocus your attention on the ACB and that their highest non-A-license finisher gets a spot.

The current system is a half-assed system that guarantees big-money clubs spots while trying to maintain some air of competitive openness by giving ULEB-loyal leagues like the ACB and ABA spots. It should be one or the other. Either move to a closed, NBA-like system or go with the completely open system giving spots based on domestic league results. The former is obviously more realistic if you're interested in being profitable. But then you'd have to expand the Euroleague a bit to include more teams and I don't know if that's realistic given how many games EL teams already play.

[iraz]

And why is it important to you to prove otherwise?

The thing is I do not even try to prove anything in this particular discussion, mostly because it's impossible - haters will hate And they usually do nothing more. But from time to time I read and pose questions to authors. And they mostly remain unanswered, like this time. When you answer a question with a question it shows your confusion and self-distrust and the fact that you have no real arguments.
Though for the truth's sake, once the most prominent Jordy-hater here (Jon Konchak it was if I'm not mistaken) was honest enough to agree that my question was righteous and embarrassing for him.
On the whole IMO this topic is useless and leads nowhere.

[Baal]

The complete openness would also pose a problem. With Valencia winning the ACB championship you have a team that simply is not as attractive and financially rewarding as Real or Barcelona. With some luck, a short-lasted best shape or simply Barca and Real neglecting ACB, Valencia made the championship. But if Valencia is the only club representing Spain, you will certainly have lower ratings for broadcasts of Euroleague games and thus less advertising income not only in Spain but Europe-wide. I cannot talk for the rest of Europe but I do know the situation in Serbia. Basketball fans do not watch only broadcasts of domestic representatives, in this case Zvezda, but as well the most renowned and popular teams Europe-wide. In the case of Spain these simply are Real and Barca, having quite a few fans here as well. Specifically in Serbia, people also like Baskonia and because of Nedovic as well Unicaja. But nobody is interested in Valencia. Sport Klub broadcasts here besides Euroleague and VTB regularly also Turkish league and sometimes Italian league. Now, people watch Fener in Euroleague and often as well in Turkish league (Fener is very popular here for different reasons). But nobody watches Tofas, Besiktas and such. I guess, it is probably similar in other countries. So, it's not the matter about the best clubs but the most popular ones.

Euroleague goes here a middle-of-the-road way (what you would call half-assed) and I guess the A-licences were not only given by the criterium of the clubs financial potency (whether you believe it or not, Partizan was offered quite some time ago as well an A-license and the idiots didn't want to show their finances openly, thus didn't take the chance, but they had the opportunity though financially at the time the "poorest" team in Euroleague). In the ten A-spots you have some teams that are certainly financially less potent than, let's say, Khimky, Lokomotiva or Bayern, but Europe-wide overall maybe more rewarding regarding ratings and marketing.

The system is not perfect, it's also not always fair to all participants or candidates and it definitely let's the A-license carriers neglect their domestic leagues at will (well, I would prefer, Zvezda had an A-license and could sometimes afford to neglect Aba-league, especially in weeks, when we have two Euroleague games) but even as such it delivers the most attractive product. It's just a wild guess but the current form could develop in a next step in a more professional league where the A-license carriers maybe even step out of their respective domestic leagues and focus only on Euroleague as Europes NBA-version while their sparring-partners from Aba, VTB, ACB and German league will have to fight their way through the domestic leagues AND Euroleague. What's the final step, a completely closed professional Euroleague with a higher number of teams and all outside their respective domestic leagues, or something else, god only knows.

But for the time being Euroleague even such as it is delivers in Europe the best and most attractive basketball product.