FIBA vs ULEB

[Levenspiel]

It is only circumstantial that he completely changed his mind one week after Fener became Euroleague champion, then. My bad.

Please vivo, you seem to be a sensible person, and you know that is 100% argumentum ad hominem.

[Oly_fan]

Wait, his team gets into the finals of national championship, he says he considers euroleague as a BS organisation, since his team isn't allowed to play there, nevermind they earned it on court and he is a crybaby due to it? I don't care about any Besiktas - Fener history here, he is right on the same point some of the posters here keep repeating for the past 15 years.
What did Efes do to earn this perpetuous euroleague spot? They invested money? well mornin'... there are 10+ more teams that easily would have done the same if they got the place behind the green table...

The question is if the turkish league deserves the spot more than the spanish or german league.

You could argue yes (I'd give one to them over ACB). But the argument would be 'they invest more money currently'.
Which is the argument you just ridiculed.

[vivo]

Please vivo, you seem to be a sensible person, and you know that is 100% argumentum ad hominem.

Ad hominem is when you bring up an irrelevant character trait to refute that character's claim. That is not the case, him being a Fener competitor with a ridiculous quote history is very well related to his claims about current Euroleague structure.

[Levenspiel]

Ad hominem is when you bring up an irrelevant character trait to refute that character's claim. That is not the case, him being a Fener competitor with a ridiculous quote history is very well related to his claims about current Euroleague structure.

I'm no philosophy student, but Wikipedia says the following:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is now usually understood as a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

anyway, this thread was never about Fener, or any other team. I don't have a clue about this Fikret Orman guy either, but it should not matter. He's the president of team that is a candidate for title, but his team has no chance to compete at high level. We should be able to past beyond that "our side" and "their side" barrier in discussing anything meaningfully. imho.

[Jon_Koncak]

Karsiyaka joined Euroleague in 2016, when they become the champion of 2015 Turkish league, was that a fair call ? Karsiyaka finish the 2016 euroleague groups in the fifth place (6 teams in each groups) and eliminated from the start, so what's the point without the budget ? Dacka joined the league because they had a proper budget and with that they could compete, and they even won a game against Madrid in the play-offs, these kind of teams would help the league to get better and better, not circumstantial and temporary successful teams like Karsiyaka or BJK.
.

Jordi era basketball is the only major sport in europe where a discussion like this can take place..Are you seriously asking whether the champion of a top 3 europeans league should deserve to play in what is supposed to be the major continental competition?This is madness...i never heard anyone questioning whether Leicester should play in champions league after they won premier league..Karsiyaka didnt embarass themselves..they won the same amount of games as A licence holder Milano,one less than A licence holder Maccabi..they didnt go through because of two close losses at home against Pao and Zalgiris..

[Tevfik1907]

Jordi era basketball is the only major sport in europe where a discussion like this can take place..Are you seriously asking whether the champion of a top 3 europeans league should deserve to play in what is supposed to be the major continental competition?This is madness...i never heard anyone questioning whether Leicester should play in champions league after they won premier league..Karsiyaka didnt embarass themselves..they won the same amount of games as A licence holder Milano,one less than A licence holder Maccabi..they didnt go through because of two close losses at home against Pao and Zalgiris..

Entering to the Champions League is an award because you're getting a huge price for only being there. In Euroleague, there isn't a huge price for entering and being there, even the champion gets only 1 M award and that's it. That's the difference. If Euroleague gives 1 M each team, 5 M to play-off teams and 10 M to winner, then I would say every champion should be there. But that's not the case. So that amount of money is a big deal for a club like Leicester and therefor they should play for their success in the league.

Your example isn't the same, Euroleague is trying to establish a proper and a high level basketball league, because you can't make another system for the Europe, it's basically big teams want to play with each other, because there is no point in playing at FIBA's weak and bias cups. NBA has their own rules, and which is why they are sucessful, for example the worst team in the NBA can chose the best NCAA player in the next season. You might say that why the weakest team choses the best NCAA player, that's not fair and you would be right. Because they are thinking the whole league not only the circumstantial and temporary champions.

Euroleague needs to establish an order first, not similar to NBA perhaps, but with their own rules. Because the system in european basketball is different and hard to establish a proper order and system.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

If euroleague clubs are too big to play against anyone but themselves, I guess they are also too big for playing in national championships. There are individuals that openly promote that actualy. So let's kick them out of the whole Fiba system now and not only when they feel ready. Proponents of a closed league would get their wishes granted than, even if some of them would start to realise the importnce of a national championship both for players, casual fans and sponsors.

[vivo]

If euroleague clubs are too big to play against anyone but themselves, I guess they are also too big for playing in national championships. There are individuals that openly promote that actualy. So let's kick them out of the whole Fiba system now and not only when they feel ready. Proponents of a closed league would get their wishes granted than, even if some of them would start to realise the importnce of a national championship both for players, casual fans and sponsors.

Yeah good luck playing Turkish league without Fener and Efes, Greek league without Oly and Pao, and ACB without 3-4 top teams... Lol federations and other clubs would kill the proposal and FIBA itself for the revenue and prestige to be lost

[Joško Poljak Fan]

Yeah good luck playing Turkish league without Fener and Efes, Greek league without Oly and Pao, and ACB without 3-4 top teams... Lol federations and other clubs would kill the proposal and FIBA itself for the revenue and prestige to be lost

Yeah, those leagues would be pretty worse off. However it's a matter of time before that happens, so what difference does it make if they do that in 2018 or in 2022? It's incredibly stupid of Fiba to wait before those teams get out on their own, when they're ready for that.
Most of euroelague team's sponsors wouldn't be all that happy about it either.

[Killer Bob]

If euroleague clubs are too big to play against anyone but themselves, I guess they are also too big for playing in national championships. There are individuals that openly promote that actualy. So let's kick them out of the whole Fiba system now and not only when they feel ready. Proponents of a closed league would get their wishes granted than, even if some of them would start to realise the importnce of a national championship both for players, casual fans and sponsors.

There're no easy solutions. But if we stayed in Fiba system, nothing would changed. Fiba wouldn't even make their new prepositions. Consequently there would have been even less money in European basketball and eventually even fewer good players from Europe or USA. Times has changed, economics meters in sports too. In the end, system who will be able to create money for everyone in basketball will win. Fiba, Euroleague or somebody else. But I'm pretty sure we won't see teams from Scandinavia, Benelux, Moldavia... in the same league than Oly, Pao, Real, Fener..., because basketball is not football and popularity is not the same in every country. Why (semi)-closed league looks interesting? Because everyone who invest big money in basketball needs some kind of guarantee that he will play in the league next years too. No one will put up big budget for only one season.

[R1ou]

No one will put up big budget for only one season.

Darussafaka dogus tends to disagree

[Killer Bob]

Darussafaka dogus tends to disagree

There're always exceptions. Maybe I should say, nobody normal.

[Oly_fan]

If euroleague clubs are too big to play against anyone but themselves, I guess they are also too big for playing in national championships. There are individuals that openly promote that actualy. So let's kick them out of the whole Fiba system now and not only when they feel ready. Proponents of a closed league would get their wishes granted than, even if some of them would start to realise the importnce of a national championship both for players, casual fans and sponsors.

Please do. I know that for us it would easily double our ticket revenue, TV income, sponsor money etc.

Playing in the domestic league is a money sinkhole.

[slice me nice]

I see Fener fans are bouncing way too much, guys, don't. Stop viewing with a jaundiced eye to everything on the slightest pretense. The president remarked upon the current injustice in European basketball, however Fener fans took it personal. It is quite funny to see Fener fans being the dauntless guards of Euroleague, trying to defend the injustice with ridiculous claims. I bet Bertomeu is bursting with pride nowadays thanks to Fener fans' justification attempts. Hopefully, Euroleague will give lifelong service award to these overproud fans. You have all those A-licenses, we don't want any. Orman said, even if we win the league title and Euroleague offers a WC to us, he won't send the team to this corrupt organization. It's all yours, keep on deceiving yourselves.

Fikret Orman is 100% right. It is another story whether we will be the champion, the reality is that the chances are extremely slim for us, however you can't deny the fact that we are playing very good basketball despite having a limited budget and players, no matter, at the end we will reach the glory or not. It is frustrating to know that we won't be able to play at the highest level of European basketball from the sides of players, staff, sponsors and board. All we want is equality. Ignorant fans will keep on repeating the same things like parrot; temporary success, find strong sponsors and etc. Anyway, we are not on the same frequency with them.

[Jon_Koncak]

There're no easy solutions. But if we stayed in Fiba system, nothing would changed. Fiba wouldn't even make their new prepositions. Consequently there would have been even less money in European basketball and eventually even fewer good players from Europe or USA. Times has changed, economics meters in sports too. In the end, system who will be able to create money for everyone in basketball will win. Fiba, Euroleague or somebody else. But I'm pretty sure we won't see teams from Scandinavia, Benelux, Moldavia... in the same league than Oly, Pao, Real, Fener..., because basketball is not football and popularity is not the same in every country. Why (semi)-closed league looks interesting? Because everyone who invest big money in basketball needs some kind of guarantee that he will play in the league next years too. No one will put up big budget for only one season.

you're essentially saying that you are against fair competition.You want those particular 11 teams to have an unfair advantage over the rest..