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PAO vs OLY in Greek Cup final

KWSN-Men said:
As for the other factor, we all know you all imply the refs. Well, for many years now Panathinaikos has been one of the best teams in Europe and their results make Oly's results in Euroleague seem like a joke. So you can say whatever you want, results against other teams, with foreign refs say the exact opposite than your "other reasons".
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Decide what to discuss and don't mix things up to shape opinions. Don't try to throw dust in the eyes of those who don't follow Greek baskeball. It is funny to hear Pana fans denying the fact they have the "stroke" of the refs. And I'm talking about the domestic competitions, not Euroleague. Your team has been better all these years but always getting some insane whistles and not only! The last that comes in my mind is when Diamantidis fouled (light word) Greer and you somehow stole a whole championship.

So admit that and "Oly's results in Euroleague seem like a joke" is your opinion and out of the subject.
 
FRANKY 13 said:
TWISM yes PAO sometimes got some calls that decided games. So did Oly. Last year only in the 4th final, there was a non call on batist that would have decided the game in PAOs favor.

The truth is that greek refs are influenced by the court. Its usual in greece to have some help (60-40) from the refs when you play in your court.
PAO got some more calls than Oly because it was a better team and had the homecourt advantage.

If Oly gets it this year, he will have the same treatment. We saw it last year in the 4th final, and several other times in SEF.

Again there is no big conspiracy here.

Oly never had the home court advantage and thats why PAO got all the titles. You cant expect to win the championship against possibly the best team of the last 20 years in europe , without homecourt advantage. You can hope, but you can t expect it.
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U r absolutely right about that game 4 of the finals last year. I think I have mentioned it sometime too. I also agree that home court plays its part as far as officiating is concerned. Where we disagree is the extent of "push" each team gets. The treatment each team gets outside the court is another factor that influences my opinion. Other teams could claim they get even worse treatment and they would probably b right, but that's not the point here. And it's not only about derbies. Look at how often your opponents complain and how often our ones do.
Anyway, since I c we have some understanding and we agree 2 some key points, I don't think we should keep a meaningless argue, especially in a forum. Just 2 sum up, u say home court advantage was the key factor. I consider it a key factor too. Your team has got more calls(or non-calls) during this period. Would my team get them, if the games were held in SEF? Probably yes, we would get some(I just think not as much as u did, but that's not the point). My actual complaint is not that PAO wins the titles because of the refs, but that PAO has an outside assistance no matter whether they need it or not. And that the whole situation in greek bball favours PAO(just like it favours Olympiacos in football). I wouldn't argue over the unfair of many titles won by PAO. Still I believe I have the right 2 complain about the circumstances the matches r played. I just hope tomorrow the best team wins and that we won't have an argument about a non-call, a controversial foul or any other call.
 
T.W.Is.M. said:
My actual complaint is not that PAO wins the titles because of the refs, but that PAO has an outside assistance no matter whether they need it or not. And that the whole situation in greek bball favours PAO(just like it favours Olympiacos in football).
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So how do u get the outside assistance?
Is it all about the connections that a team has? (or as u guys call it "konne")
 
Khalid80 said:
So how do u get the outside assistance?
Is it all about the connections that a team has? (or as u guys call it "konne")
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Let's say it's something like this. It doesn't apply only 2 the calls a team gets during a match. It's the bans they have 2 face, the general treatment by the refs in other matches but derbies, what the officials allow 2 happen in the arenas at derbies. It's how much u can influence people that move the strings.
So if the players of a team have won many titles in recent years, they build self-confidence through titles and believe they can win all games. Furthermore, if their team can influence things outside the court, that confidence builds up even more, while the morale of the opponents drops.
 
T.W.Is.M. said:
Let's say it's something like this. It doesn't apply only 2 the calls a team gets during a match. It's the bans they have 2 face, the general treatment by the refs in other matches but derbies, what the officials allow 2 happen in the arenas at derbies. It's how much u can influence people that move the strings.
So if the players of a team have won many titles in recent years, they build self-confidence through titles and believe they can win all games. Furthermore, if their team can influence things outside the court, that confidence builds up even more, while the morale of the opponents drops.
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Thanks for ur reply :)
I sort of understand what u mean, but there still r some unclear point if i may ask.
The bans that u mention about and what is allowed to happen in the arenas at derbies must be regulated and decided upon by the Greek bball federation (am i correct?)

Now don't both teams (PAO+Olympiakos) have the same amount of representation in the federation or is there a problem concerning this?

And concerning the refs, has there been any instances where refs were punished for their actions if there was any evidence that they tended to support/make calls/whistle more for one team than another in an obvious manner? Or r they protected?

The self confidence issue though is more of an internal psychological issue imo.
Cuz if Olympiakos' players are not confident in themselves and don't believe that they can beat PAO in these derbies, then they will never be able to do so.
And sometimes being the underdog in these circumstances makes u play harder to prove that u can against all the odds.
 
Pre-history of Cup Finals between Panathinaikos - Olympiakos


Panathinaikon Stadium (Open court) June 2, 1979

telikosmegayro1979.jpg


Panathinaikos-Olympiakos 79-72 (45-46)

Panathinaikos (Kostas Politis) 79: Kontos 21, Papantoniou 16, Kokolakis 15, Koroneos 12, Nelson-Stergakos 11, Batis 4, Papazoglou, Garos, Sigas, Ioannou


Olympiakos (Kostas Mourouzis) 72 : Young- Giatzoglou 28, Diakoulas 15, Kastrinakis 13, Melini 8, Raftopoulos 6, Sismanidis, Kokorogiannis, Barlas, Spanos, Sabanis.


Glyfada- Makis Liougas Court 20 Απριλίου 1983

Panathinaikos-Olympiakos 72-62

telikosmegayro1983koron.jpg


Panathinaikos (Christos Kefalos) 72: Koroneos 19, Nelson- Stergakos 13, Andritsos 12, Kokolakis 11, Kappos 9, Ioannou 8, Kalogeropoulos, Karanasos, Likoudis.

Olympiakos (Giannis Barlas) 62 : Young-Giantzoglou 14, Paragios 10, Kastrinakis 9, Skropolithas 8, Kassimis 6, Raftopoulos 6, Kokorogiannis 5, Kozakis 4, Kabouris, Sabanis.


Peace and Friendship Stadium April 23, 1986

Panathinaikos- Olympiakos 88-78 (42-42)

n120818464830115932314.jpg


Panathinaikos (Michalis Kiritsis): Ioannou 13(1), Vidas 1, Andritsos 22, Papapetrou 16, Nelson- Stergakos 25, Skropolithas 11(1), Petroudakis, Konstantos, Fragiskatos.

Olympiakos (Giorgos Anastasatos): Sabanis 7(1), Paragios 8, Maniatis 11, Kozakis 6, Kabouris 12, A. Christodoulou 17(2), Panagiotopoulos 13, Koukis 2, Nalbantis 2, Dakoulas.

Hellenikon Arena(Athens) March 26, 2008

Olympiakos - Panathinaikos 79-81 (30-34)

paocup2008sa5.jpg


Panathinaikos (Zelimir Obradovic) 81: Alvertis, Diamantidis 9 (1), Dikoudis, Perperoglou 8 (2), Hatzivrettas 6 (2), Spanoulis 20 (4), Tsartsaris 14 (3), Winston 11 (2), Batiste 5, Zizic, Prkacin, Jasikevicius 8 (1).

Olympiakos (Panayiotis Giannakis) 79 :Papamakarios, Kafkis, Blakeney 4, Greer 28 (4), Teodosic 8 (1), Macijauskas 5 (1), Vasilopoulos 15 (3), Vasileiadis, Printezis, Bourousis 11, Jackson 10, Tsakalidis.
 
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Olympiakos said:
Correction: The foul was not on Greer, it was on Scoonie Penn
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Yes and Sigalas fouled Tiit Sokk in the 5th final in 1994-95 season in the last second but it wasn't called. Olympiakos won with 1 point as well as the title. Sokk would have had 2 free throws. In such situations it's a non-call (just as Penn said himself). We didn't bitch about it then. We took the loss like men.
 
T.W.Is.M. said:
Neutral fans don't care about the result, so there is no need 2 care about the refs. We guys remember what happens so many times and that's why we start this needless discussion.
Now I would like 2 c where I even implied that we r gonna lose because of the refs or that I consider PAO a favorite because of the refereeing. U can also search in the "red" forum too(apart from a couple of jokes about the referees that refer 2 the past). I also consider Panathinaikos the favorite because of players, team and the way they play inside the court. Even with this being said, I still don't trust most of the greek refs and don't expect much from them tomorrow.
The salary of Childress was calculated by the €/$ rate that applied when he signed. With the current one u r right, it is roughly $5.2M. But again, Childress will get USD, so his contract 4 this season is ~$6.67M.

P.S.1 R u so confident that the difference will b so big?:cool:
P.S.2 U can buy more than with $4.2M, that's 4 sure.
P.S.3 No comment, there is plenty of other posters that can judge that too.
P.S.4 Next time don't jump 2 conclusions with what I write. I don't mean something more than what u read.
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Neutral fans see one team that since 1998 has participated in 1 F4 and another that has won 3 Euroleagues and participated in 7 F4s total in 11 years. So they can judge on their own.

Childress' salary is paid in USD but team budgets are calculated in euro. So at the moment, the money he is being paid are actually more. If the euro was up to $3,20 instead of $1,60 when he signed, would you still say he is getting 4,2m euro?

PS1: I wonder why Batiste is not called for all these illegal picks when he is playing in Euroleague. Probably the refs don't have red glasses there.
PS2: I know this, I was writting this since this summer. But back then I was just a blind green fan with complexes. Too bad I was right huh?
 
Olympiakos said:
Decide what to discuss and don't mix things up to shape opinions. Don't try to throw dust in the eyes of those who don't follow Greek baskeball. It is funny to hear Pana fans denying the fact they have the "stroke" of the refs. And I'm talking about the domestic competitions, not Euroleague. Your team has been better all these years but always getting some insane whistles and not only! The last that comes in my mind is when Diamantidis fouled (light word) Greer and you somehow stole a whole championship.

So admit that and "Oly's results in Euroleague seem like a joke" is your opinion and out of the subject.
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I am not mixing up anything, I am not throwing dust in anybody's eyes. All that I am saying is that for the past decade Panathinaikos is one of the 3 teams that has been dominating European basketball. On the other hand, Olympiakos has been a mediocre team on Euroleague with ups and downs but nothing special. So it is no wonder that Panathinaikos is also dominating Greece as well. So yes, comparing the two teams is a joke.

As for Diamantidis' foul, it is really a joke. We are talking about the same series of games where Macijauskas was shooting 15+ FT's on every game in SEF. And we are talking about a game that IF Olympiakos had won, the series would go at 2-1 when 3 wins were needed, so Panathinaikos would need a win in SEF, something that had happened 2 times already that year.

Panathinaikos gets calls when in OAKA, Olympiakos gets call when in SEF. Still, the last 2 seasons, Olympiakos won 1 time in OAKA in 2007 when it meant nothing for Panathinaikos and Panathinaikos won 3 times in SEF, 1 of them a nock out game for Greek Cup and 2 times regular season games they they needed the win.
 
T.W.Is.M. said:
U r absolutely right about that game 4 of the finals last year. I think I have mentioned it sometime too. I also agree that home court plays its part as far as officiating is concerned. Where we disagree is the extent of "push" each team gets. The treatment each team gets outside the court is another factor that influences my opinion. Other teams could claim they get even worse treatment and they would probably b right, but that's not the point here. And it's not only about derbies. Look at how often your opponents complain and how often our ones do.
Anyway, since I c we have some understanding and we agree 2 some key points, I don't think we should keep a meaningless argue, especially in a forum. Just 2 sum up, u say home court advantage was the key factor. I consider it a key factor too. Your team has got more calls(or non-calls) during this period. Would my team get them, if the games were held in SEF? Probably yes, we would get some(I just think not as much as u did, but that's not the point). My actual complaint is not that PAO wins the titles because of the refs, but that PAO has an outside assistance no matter whether they need it or not. And that the whole situation in greek bball favours PAO(just like it favours Olympiacos in football). I wouldn't argue over the unfair of many titles won by PAO. Still I believe I have the right 2 complain about the circumstances the matches r played. I just hope tomorrow the best team wins and that we won't have an argument about a non-call, a controversial foul or any other call.
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There was big talk from Olympiakos management and fans about the regular season game in OAKA this season. I was there. Some idiots threw paper cups with water and coffee towards Oly's bench. Nothing more happened. And PAO was pusnihed for this. But the incidents this year where not as bad as last year.

On the other hand, Vassilopoulos and Greer threw water bottles they had at their bench to the crowd. Nothing happened to them.

PAO was punished for last year's finals. In the last game it took 10 minutes or more for the last 7 seconds to be played as fans were trowing dozens of things. Do you remember how this started? Vassilopoulos took the game ball (I repeat, with 7 seconds remaining) and kicked it to them. PAO was punished, they made an appeal and the punishment was reduced. Nothing happened to Vassilopoulos.

Olympiakos was punished for last year's finals. In game 4, the game was stopped because Olympiakos fans set PAO's bench on fire. Somebody in Oly's management had moved the fanatics from where they are normally sitting to seats paid by season ticket holders. While the game was stopped, somebody threw a big glass ouzo bottle to one of the refs. before the end, leaders of the fanatics were distributing plastic water bottles they snatched from the arena and they threw them at PAO players at the end of the game. Olympiakos was punished for this with the same punishment as PAO. They didn't make an appeal and therefore it was not reduced. And now they can play victims of the establishment.
 
Khalid80 said:
I realized that the PAO-Olympiakos derby (I like how it's called the "Mother of all Battles" or the "Derby of the Eternal Enemies" :D) doesn't only include football, basketball, and volleyball but even Water Polo :D.
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Pao fans don't talk much about waterpolo which is not so strange considering their team isn't really a good one..
not even a mid level one for european standards..
edit and waterpolo is probably only fifth team sport in terms of popularity in europe..
 
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EverGreen said:
Yes and Sigalas fouled Tiit Sokk in the 5th final in 1994-95 season in the last second but it wasn't called. Olympiakos won with 1 point as well as the title. Sokk would have had 2 free throws. In such situations it's a non-call (just as Penn said himself). We didn't bitch about it then. We took the loss like men.
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U r wrong here, this wasn't a foul. The other one was obvious, because even Diamantidis raised his hand. I already mentioned before the non-call in favour of Olympiacos last year in game 4 of the finals, u have every right 2 protest about that.
BTW, moving picks r a big part of european bball. Without accepting or rejecting this opinion, I remember a greek journalist saying during an NBA broadcast that CSKA has built its recent success on illegal picks. Even is this is not accurate, I suppose it has some truth in it and therefore, there is no reason 2 expect these violations 2 b called.
P.S. The only person that was travelling more than Bodiroga was Vasco da Gama! Yet nobody called 4 these violations.
 
This might work as well.

http://www.ellinaras.co.nr/


As for moving picks, if NBA rules were used, they would be called in over half picks being made in Europe, by ALL players. But since in Europe the calls are different for ALL teams in europe when it comes to this, it only make Oly fans who talk about Batiste look silly.

Twism: Let me guess, the journalist was Magoulas, right?
 
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