Greece-FYROM quarrel: What do the people think?

[skrstevsky2]

I am also against Aleksandar the great statue. Would the Greeks played their cards right then he would not have been in Skopje today, this is like puting gas into the fire and the greeks started the fire.

But also a lot of our poeple hardly has anything to eat, I would build factorys instead of a antique ghost who are totaly unimportant in modern europe is not like anyone cares about Aleksandar in europ.

Better to have statue of Alexander the Great then statues from failed factories!

 

[buzz2]

I am also against Aleksandar the great statue. Would the Greeks played their cards right then he would not have been in Skopje today, this is like puting gas into the fire and the greeks started the fire.

lol! so you are stealing a history(correctly speaking you are trying to steal it with a hilarious way) ,some(many) guys dream a slavic thessaloniki but after all it is greece's fault!

Is it too easy to blame others(especially your neighbours), rather than take responsibility for your own actions ...

 

[washcloud2]

I am also against Aleksandar the great statue. Would the Greeks played their cards right then he would not have been in Skopje today, this is like puting gas into the fire and the greeks started the fire.

But also a lot of our poeple hardly has anything to eat, I would build factorys instead of a antique ghost who are totaly unimportant in modern europe is not like anyone cares about Aleksandar in europ.

Suddenly, you're making much sense - and I don't mean it 'cause "it suits" us Greeks.

Sadly, such sense is not applicable in this world.*




Like I posted before,

Funny thing is, that what should be more important for plain people (I obviously am excluding politicians and the likes and whoever else would have some kind of materialistic gain from this) is not if Alexander The Great's name was Greek, if he was speaking and writting in Greek and not into some totally alien to it language, if Herodotus and other ancient historians were referring to the ancient Macedons as Greeks, if the Slavs descented to the Balkans by 6AD (and so on...) BUT that we people, should better deal with a more obscure and unhealthy to our lives enemy, OUR LEADERS........That 'd include political and financial ones.

Here we are, losing time, writing thesises that won't do much good to almost anybody, while them "leaders" profit on our behalf and actually could care less about what's righteous........

*

Better to have statue of Alexander the Great then statues from failed factories!

lol! so you are stealing a history(correctly speaking you are trying to steal it with a hilarious way) ,some(many) guys dream a slavic thessaloniki but after all it is greece's fault!

Is it too easy to blame others(especially your neighbours), rather than take responsibility for your own actions ...

Huh!

 

[Supply&Demand2]

Better to have statue of Alexander the Great then statues from failed factories!

I'd take a statue to Bo over Alexander! Seriously though, I think in the future when Gruevski is gone, we should sell the statue to Thessaloniki and put a new one to Delcev.

 

[Robimkd2]

This is true.

Our history begins in the late 19th century. The first tremors were Gjorgji Pulevski, Kresna Uprising, etc., but the 1890s was when things got serious. Then you got the Ilinden Uprising, VMRO murdering several Bulgarian prime ministers and generally pissing Bulgaria off big time, etc. By the 1920s our identity was forming quite rapidly and by 1940 it was set. Now we have an independent state, and we've had quite a few tests in just these 20 years. This is definitely material for a state, and we have more history than a lot of other countries (excluding the regional history too), so it disappoints me that some of us would rather worship some Greek guy. And there's no shame in our youth. I see this as a good thing.

If you are slavic than it is OK with me. But do not tell anyone else who they are OK ?.

I know who I am by blood, I had the balls to do this DNA test and I am more hellenic than slavic.

Just cuz i speak slavic do not make me slav.

Btw I am from Bitola.

This is what Greek nationalistic groups think about Bitola and region Pelagonija.

They even say that I am a former Greek but brain washed today.

Just see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsZLbYmpSOk


One more thing. Term Greek didint exist back in time. Existed only Macedonians, Athenians, Spartans.

Not one singel historyan before 1991 has ever stated that Aleksandar wos anything else but Macedonian just as Filip.

Even Greek historyans told he wos Macedonian.

But an paraniod Papandreu started to pay milions to make a false history, that Macedonia wos Greek, how can it be when Greece didint even exist back in time. This is if someone in Denmark say that Sweden is Denmark.

Macedonians vs Greeks
(Battle of Chaeronea 338 BC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk0P-q5wGV0

What Nationality was Alexander the Great?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdgCe0cf9g&feature=related



So both moderna Macedonians and modern Greeks hs made a few manipulations.

Our culture has nothing to do with the old hellenic, but what our blood is is something else.

Greeks claime that he wos Greek, but he wos not since Greece didint even exist back than.

 

[Robimkd2]

Explain to me Greeks what is this ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKJhBvLM41I


You say you make no clime on land ?

 

[washcloud2]

(...it was too good to last...)

Well Robimkd, judging from what you type, it seems you actually do not know who you are. Much like you're told (in the sense of not understanding that the term Greek was one to describe a race, and not a state or "ethnicity". It's totally irrelevant with the fact that Greece started out as an independent state, back in the early 19th century).

Whatever.
(Let's just hope you'll keep having more profound thoughts about what's good for your own people, and what's not. Like you did in that sparkle of thoughtfullness a few posts before)

 

[buzz2]

full of nonsenses!!unbelievable ...so your culture is not hellenic!you can't pronounce even the name αλεξανδρος (alexander) but your blood is!!oh oh man!what can i say...



ps:by the way answering to your paranoia many greeks have fought against greeks at the persian wars...athenians vs greeks and persians...spartans vs greeks and persians...
you ve already answered to your hilarious beliefs and you don't know it!!!
it is meaningless to answer to such a post,absolutely meaningless!so i rest my case...

 

[Robimkd2]

I'd take a statue to Bo over Alexander! Seriously though, I think in the future when Gruevski is gone, we should sell the statue to Thessaloniki and put a new one to Delcev.

Why Goce Delcev ? I would like to have Pitu Guli or Krale Marko.

VMRO wos a small group of 2000 man most of them born out side Macedonia, most of them born in North Greece, Lernin, Odessa, Thesalonika, etc.

VMRO can suck my balls. Sick nationalistic party that waste my money i pay bills for better life not for some fucking statue of Aleksandar.

I hope we will sell him too, since he is so imporent to the Greeks.

Greece has to understand that we most find an solution this can not go on anymore it is absurd.

I am for a new name let say Northe Macedonia and this way we can not make any monopol should make Greeks happy. I would sell Aleksandar too since he aint importent in my daily life.

But Greece has to exept my identity since it has existet for a very long time, Turks ottomans has documents that proof that we xisted allready 350 years ago, and this is not anyhing you can change over a night you have to understand this.

Tito give us a land but not our existence.

 

[Supply&Demand2]

Why Goce Delcev ? I would like to have Pitu Guli or Krale Marko.

VMRO wos a small group of 2000 man most of them born out side Macedonia, most of them born in North Greece, Lernin, Odessa, Thesalonika, etc.

VMRO can suck my balls. Sick nationalistic party that waste my money i pay bills for better life not for some fucking statue of Aleksandar.

Well it can be anybody, I just threw Delcev out as an example.

The countryside of modern-day northern Greece had a very large Slavic population back then. In fact, I don't think Thessaloniki was a majority Greek city either. Obviously all this changed in the 20th century. And by VMRO I mean the original and much more violent VMRO, not the modern losers who have assured themselves a negative chapter in Macedonian history textbooks.

If you are slavic than it is OK with me. But do not tell anyone else who they are OK ?.

I know who I am by blood, I had the balls to do this DNA test and I am more hellenic than slavic.

Well, DNA is very specific and every individual is different. I have Hungarian citizenship/blood from my mother, but I don't care about Hungary. I'm speaking generally; Macedonians are generally Slavic.

Btw I am from Bitola.

I am from Tetovo.

 

[Kalashnikov]

This is what Greek nationalistic groups think about Bitola and region Pelagonija.

Thankfully, the nationalistic party in Greece amounts for only 5-7% of the votes.
Sadly, they are in the parliament and they have a say. But their influence is limited...
I don't care most of the time of what they have to say. You shouldn't either as it has nothing to do with official government policy.

One more thing. Term Greek didint exist back in time. Existed only Macedonians, Athenians, Spartans.

The term "Greek" is not that old indeed. The term that was used to identify all Greek tribes was "Hellene".
Unsurprisingly, Hellas is also the official name of my country...originating from this ancient term.

Not one singel historyan before 1991 has ever stated that Aleksandar wos anything else but Macedonian just as Filip.

Everybody said he was Greek. Historians included. The split of Yugoslavia changed nothing.

Even Greek historyans told he wos Macedonian.

No they didn't

But an paraniod Papandreu started to pay milions to make a false history, that Macedonia wos Greek, how can it be when Greece didint even exist back in time.

In the same way that Athens and Sparta and Corinth and Thessalia etc. were considered Greek tribes, Macedonia was just another one. Not only considered Greek by the Greeks themselves, but also by Jewish, Romans, Egyptians and others...

Greeks claime that he wos Greek, but he wos not since Greece didint even exist back than.

Not as a nation, in the form we are using it today. But, then again, today's nations are an invension of the 19th century. Before that Italy wasn't unified, but it is quite clear to you that all the kingdoms (venice, milan, verona, roma, genoa etc.) were italian, speaking the same language, sharing the same religion, culture, history etc. France likewise. Germany likewise.

Ancient Macedon was another Hellenic kingdom, that frequently was in war with other Hellenic kingdoms, but nevertheless shared the language, religion, writing with all the Hellenic world.
The expansion of the Macedon during Alexander the Great's reign has brought the Hellenistic times. The historical era when the Greek language and culture spread throughout the mediterranean and middle east, until modern day India, thus making the Greek language the lingua-franca of the time and spreading the Greek ideals to the entire known world.

 

[buzz2]

1 The term "Greek" is not that old indeed. The term that was used to identify all Greek tribes was "Hellene".
Unsurprisingly, Hellas is also the official name of my country...originating from this ancient term.





2 Ancient Macedon was another Hellenic kingdom, that frequently was in war with other Hellenic kingdoms, but nevertheless shared the language, religion, writing with all the Hellenic world.

1.indeed but both terms comes from the ancient past (b.c)

2.as you said that was usual between greek cities...for example peloponessian war

 

[buzz2]

[English or provide translation]

http://www.gazzetta.gr/article/item/225417-lithouanikes-istories

 

[Supply&Demand2]

[English or provide translation]

http://www.gazzetta.gr/article/item/225417-lithouanikes-istories

:d

He's talking about the fans, right? 100 fans in the beginning, 1500 in the end? God forbid he actually talk about the game itself.

 

[Alvertis42]

He's talking about the fans, right? 100 fans in the beginning, 1500 in the end? God forbid he actually talk about the game itself.

he talks about the ENVIRONMENT AROUND the Eurobasket, he's not talking about any games....

 

[Victorious2]

But Greece has to exept my identity since it has existet for a very long time, Turks ottomans has documents that proof that we xisted allready 350 years ago, and this is not anyhing you can change over a night you have to understand this.

Tito give us a land but not our existence.

Greece or Greeks don't care about your people having a unique identity. I think this is more of an issue for the Bulgarians. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the first cartographers in the 19th century who promoted Macedonian Slavs as a unique people were Greek. Ofcourse back then Greece feared that Slavic speaking peoples in Macedonia would be tempted to be part of a greater Bulgaria.

Can you provide me with a link of ottoman documents which proves that your people had a distinct identity 350 years ago (i.e. the 17th century)? In Ottoman census and documents of different travelers there is no mention of Macedonians or Macedonian Slavs in Macedonia, but rather Bulgarians, Greeks, Muslims, Jews, Vlachs etc.

I'm just curious, because there is a difference between a geographic reference and an ethnic reference. There are documents who refer to Pelopponesians, Epirotans, Cretans, Rascians, Roumelians, Thracians etc., but that doesn't make them a separate ethnic entity.

 

[Supply&Demand2]

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the first cartographers in the 19th century who promoted Macedonian Slavs as a unique people were Greek.

The Serbs were the first, but the Greeks approved of the maps too.

But as always, the 'war of the maps' leads nowhere.

Here's a funny/sad story from 19th century Macedonia:

I was talking to a wealthy peasant who came in from a neighboring village to the Monastir market. He spoke Greek well, but hardly like a native.

'Is your village Greek,' I asked him, 'or Bulgarian?'

'Well,' he replied, 'it is Bulgarian now, but four years ago it was Greek.'

The answer seemed to him entirely natural and commonplace.

'How,' I asked in some bewilderment, 'did that miracle come about?'

'Why,' said he, 'we are all poor men, but we want to have our own school and a priest who will look after us properly. We used to have a Greek teacher. We paid him £5 a year and his bread, while the Greek consul paid him another £5; but we had no priest of our own. We shared a priest with several other villages, but he was very unpunctual and remiss. We went to the Greek bishop to complain, but he refused to do anything for us. The Bulgarians heard of this and they came and made us an offer. They said they would give us a priest who would live in the village and a teacher to whom we need pay nothing. Well, sir, ours is a poor village, and so of course we became Bulgarians.'

I don't see how these map-makers can accurately reflect this situation.

 

[qiangdade2]

Slavic literally means people who speak the same language. Everyone else who spoke anything different at the time (nothing to do with origin) were called "nemci", which literally means "people who mumble". Funny right?

Somehow i think i should find this offensive

Btw, just wondering: wouldn't be ok if FYROMacedonians said that "ok ancient macedonians were a greek tribe. Slavic people came to the area later on and assimilated a good part of the local population and we are of both ancient macedonian and slavic heritage"? Wouldn't that do it for both Greeks and FYROMacedonians? I mean nobody is denying the greek nature of ancient macedonians (greeks are happy) or the ancient macedonian heritage of FYROMacedonians (them happy too). No monopoly of the name and the only thing to be resolved is the official country name and the name of the people and the language. Best and more realistic names imo are: Republic of Makedonija and makedonski or Republic of Vardar Macedonia/Makedonija and vardar makedonski/macedonian.

I see no problem in this scenario for either greeks or FYROMacedonians, in fact that could even strengthen their relations significally (FYROMacedonians admiting part greek macedonian heritage). It is not like ancient and modern greeks are so closely related afterall...

Last but not least greek macedonians feel more strongly about the matter than the rest of greeks i have recently noticed.

 

[Robimkd2]

Greece or Greeks don't care about your people having a unique identity. I think this is more of an issue for the Bulgarians. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the first cartographers in the 19th century who promoted Macedonian Slavs as a unique people were Greek. Ofcourse back then Greece feared that Slavic speaking peoples in Macedonia would be tempted to be part of a greater Bulgaria.

Can you provide me with a link of ottoman documents which proves that your people had a distinct identity 350 years ago (i.e. the 17th century)? In Ottoman census and documents of different travelers there is no mention of Macedonians or Macedonian Slavs in Macedonia, but rather Bulgarians, Greeks, Muslims, Jews, Vlachs etc.

I'm just curious, because there is a difference between a geographic reference and an ethnic reference. There are documents who refer to Pelopponesians, Epirotans, Cretans, Rascians, Roumelians, Thracians etc., but that doesn't make them a separate ethnic entity.

Bulgaria has no monopol on the poeple in Macedonia because the majority wos not Bulgarian. Most of the poeple who had Bulgarian orgin wos born out side what is Macedonia today and some of the est side of of Macedonia today.

The biggest majority used to be Serbs since every singel church between 70 up to 1600 yeras old has Serbian language inside the church.

But also a lot of Greeks, Vlash, etc.. So by no mean Bulgarian has right to make any monopol.

Bulgaria used to occupy Macedonia in the past just like one huge part of what is today Ukraine.

Nationalist Borisov made Bulgarians yet again dream about the old great Bulgaria. They even hand passort to poor Moldavians and Ukraine people.

Bulgarians today make huge manipulations with the truth.

Goce Delcev as exempal an mamber of the VMRO group born out side what is today Macedonia and might had Bulgarian orgin but still told that he is an pure Macedonian. He did dream about an free multi ethnic Macedonia where all will be uder Macedonian self awareness since that would be the only way for the nations to work, cuz the serbs or greeks will not exept anything else.

But of course you support the Bulgarian nationonalist since it suits you.

 

[Robimkd2]

But than again Macedonia has been occupied land by Serbs, Bulgarians and Turks and Greeks for that matter.

When Serbia occupied most say they are Serbs, when Bulgaria occupied everybady most say they are Bulgarians so this is no democracy.

To me democracy is when people surch the luck in Canada or America 100 years ago. They old told hey are Macedonians and still do.

Steven Stamkos is the 4 generation Macedonians, Stamkos grandfather father is born in what is north Greece today. He speak slavic macedonian ​​languages and say he is Macedonian. He has a Greek name since everybady in Greece at that time most have Greek name, same today for that matter.

This boy has nothing to do with Tito noor Yugoslavia, right ?.

He is one of the best Icehockey players in the world.

Steven Stamkos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stamkos

Same is with Steve Staios
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Staios

Read about Steve Stavro (Former owner Toronto Raptors) (September 27, 1926 - April 24, 2006), born Manoli Stavroff Sholdas, was a Macedonian Canadian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Stavros

John Bitove, Sr.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bitove,_Sr.

Mike Ilitch (NBA owner)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Ilitch

Mike Zafirovski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Zafirovski


Not everything is what it seems to be my dear neighbors. You can read propaganda but but if you scratch a little beneath the surface you will find the truth.

Greeks give our people Greek names, Bulgarians give our people Bulgarian names, Serb giver our people Serbian names. BUT WE ARE STILL 1 MACEDONIAN UNIT

We are the Kurdistani of europe.