OLY - PAO in Greek Championship

[T.W.Is.M.]

And Olympiakos doesn't have a player like Sakota. Your point?

If u can find a frontline player in Europe that can do all the things that he can(2 some extent it could b Ksystof Lavrinovic), tell me about him. U may find better centers or PFs, but it's difficult 2 find a match.
If u don't c the impact Bouroussis has on the game of Olympiacos, then I hope u will have the chances 2 notice that in the near future.

So if he is so foul prone, why has this happened only 1 (one) time in the EL? Did PAO play 13 games against Prokom and 1 game against Siena this year?

Do u really believe he is not foul prone?
Last season is just half a year away. Do u think he learnt 2 avoid fouls in a few months? He just plays 4 a much deeper team this season and it's easier 4 his coach 2 protect him. Besides, if I recall well(correct me if I'm wrong), at the beginning of the season Batiste started most of the games instead of him, so by entering the game after the opening minutes he was more protected by a couple of quick fouls that would bench him 4 a long period.
And of course I have 2 remind u that the main strategy of Olympiacos against Pekovic should b 2 get him into foul trouble. Even I can c that, let alone the coaching staff. The tactic paid off twice and didn't pay off once. Just remember that Schortsanitis started the derby in OAKA. It's easy 2 find the reason.

As for your 3p theory, well, I can't say anything. Because you will not change your mind, it is part of your world basketball theory. Maybe you will reconsider a bit next year when the 3p line goes to 6,75 and almost nothing will change.

Maybe I will. I just think that half a meter can make a difference. Maybe because I can hit a shot from 6.25 easier than 6.75 or 5.75, that's why I believe it would b easier 4 everybody else. Time will tell.

The game last night was lost for PAO at the end because of an offensive rebound that Greer took from Diamantidis. If you are so convinced that this a something not out of the ordinary but the 3 shots from Diamantidis are, talking about a player that is shoting 50% in Euroleague (which would be higher if he was not talking some extreme time pressed shots), well....

Yes, u r right about that. Greer taking a rebound from Diamantidis is out of the ordinary. He actually didn't take the rebound though. He just slapped the ball 2 Papaloukas' hands, but even this is not so natural indeed.
But if u can justify the 3/3 3p shots in the last 5 minutes of a final by claiming that he was wide open, he is a clutch player, a good shooter and he has won numerous games in his career, which r facts that I accept, I can justify that rebound too. U c, the shooter always knows better where the ball goes after his shot(4 example, haven't u felt that a shot will drop at the moment the ball leaves your hands?), so he may understood that the ball may not go in and chased the rebound. Besides, it was the last minute of the game, everybody is going 4 every ball. And slapping the ball away from the hands of an opponent is always easier than taking the rebound yourself.

 

[Basketball Player]

Hey, KWSN...
I see you posting almost... frantically trying to prove what's already proven all those years.And all you get by such kind of posting is others speaking about a so called "PAO fans cocky attitude".So, let our team do all "the talking" on late May-early June.

Nice avatar, but you need to change it to 12 now.

 

[Basketball Player]

Well we have been shooting 3's quite well in the last month and you could call yesterday a bad day.

Anyway, when we come within a whisker of winning while having so many players play a bad game and being non-factors (Diamantidis-worst game ever, Pekovic,Nicholas Saras in the 2nd half), I can only be optimistic. There is no way Giannakis can beat Obradovic another 3 times this season.

Saras will never change though. He just insists on making wild decisions when he has the ball. At any time he can throw about 5-8 turnovers that were totally unforced. That will get you beat every time in a 40 minute game.

Of course some other PAO players can tend to be turnover prone at times like Diamantidis, Spanoulis, Pekovic, Batiste. But it's nothing like the kind of turnovers Saras makes, which are just him trying to throw crazy passes for no reason.

On the other side Papaloukas very rarely does that.

 

[T.W.Is.M.]

A bit off-topic ...

@T.W.Is.M: I know you really like your "theory", but it doesn't add up. In "3-pointers-made"-category*, pretty much all levels are represented in the Top10. There's Siena, there's Joventut at #2, which we all know got eliminated, with 9.4 makes per game, there's CSKA, there's Fener, there's Avellino, without doubt a low-level team. Real, a team that made only 6.2 three pointers per game and shot only 32.6%, finished 2nd in its group. We could go more accurate with pace-adjusted and all the percentages and so on, but I think that would be wasted time. Hitting open three pointers is important, but there are different strategies and it isn't necessarily the deciding factor.

You say Diamantidis' shots were the only difference. I could agree with that, if we compared two identical games with six identical three point attemts by one player. In one game he makes four of those, in the other game he makes only one. But identical games never happens anyway. It's interesting that Oly shot 29% and PAO 46% from three in this game, and Oly still won.

One last thing: It is funny that you claim the three pointers make so much of a difference here and that you are constantly asking for wider arc. In the NBA, you see a lot of teams that accept uncontested three pointers, because their main objective is to stop the opponent from attacking the paint. For example, you often see point guards going under the screen on the pick and roll, which you hardly see as a game tactic in Europe [actually I saw it a few times, against bad shooters like Steffen Hamann. Real Madrid defended the pick and roll in that way against Bamberg in 07/08]. Larry Brown once said that even an open NBA three pointer from all spots but the corner spots "is a bad shot". A lot of NBA coaches obviously agree with that. I watched Boston-Toronto last season. Toronto won by two points, shooting 15/20, all of those shots wide-open. Doc Rivers said that if an opponent shoots like that, there's nothing you can do. Isn't that much more of a "we'll let him take it and if he makes it, that's winning the game for them and unlucky for us"-philosophy?

*statistics after nine games in the 1st round

1)I love my theory. Especially the fact that since I introduced it, I am entitled 2 use it whenever I want and ignore it whenever results don't fit.

2)Now let's go 2 the "3-pointers-made-category". Come on, u do really well when it comes 2 numbers(as I also do). U can't have missed another thing I noticed. Look at another top 10:3-pt pct.
1.CSKA
2.TAU
3.Olympiacos
4.Siena
5.Barcelona
6.AJ Milano
7.Maccabi
8.Alba Berlin
9.Roma
10.Cibona

Now what do we c here? 10 teams that qualified 4 the top 16. They actually were the only ones in this table that surpassed 35%. We also c that the top 5 consists of teams that probably will advance 2 the quarter-finals, while the rest of the top 10 includes surprise teams(that probably used their good percentage 2 advance or finish higher) and Maccabi.
Now who is missing from the potential top 8? Panathinaikos, Real Madrid and Partizan. Panathinaikos was an underachiever in the regular season. The team's 3p pct now is 38.6%, obviously enough 2 bring them in the top 10, while they r shooting 51.4% in the top 16! Real Madrid has also improved its percentages, they r still low with 33.5%, but they r shooting 35.8% in the top 16, which is an improvement. Partizan now has raised the overall pct to 35.9%, while they r shooting 39.3% in the top 16.
Let's go 2 the other side. Which of these teams have the worst results in the top 16? Maccabi and Roma. Maccabi's pct has dropped to 33.5% and to 27.3% in the top 16(21.7% excluding the 31-point win over Alba). In Rome things r even worse. Lottomatica now shoots 31.5% and a poor 25.8% in the top 16.
So it seems 2 me that the teams that shoot well win more. And don't forget that a good shooting 4th quarter(or second half) can change things too.

3)Yesterday the pct were as u said above:29% for Oly, 46% for PAO. But the shots were 5/19 for Oly, 6/13 for PAO. Panathinaikos is a team that depends more on long-range shots than Olympiacos(and is better at this too). By shooting just 13 times, they could not utilize that element of their game. I know u will say that this comes in contrast with my previous claims. But my point is that 3p shots became sth close 2 a non-factor in that particular game 4 PAO.

P.S. It took me more than half an hour 2 find and calculate the numbers I wrote. There is nothing I omitted from what I've looked at. Do u think I would dedicate that time 2 search, if I didn't believe that the outcome of the search would suit what I wanted 2 say?

 

[Basketball Player]

Just LOL at the comparison of Diamantidis with Bouroussis.

Bourousis is more of a positive factor in the outcome of games than Diamantidis is. End of discussion.

 

[Basketball Player]

One last thing: It is funny that you claim the three pointers make so much of a difference here and that you are constantly asking for wider arc. In the NBA, you see a lot of teams that accept uncontested three pointers, because their main objective is to stop the opponent from attacking the paint. For example, you often see point guards going under the screen on the pick and roll, which you hardly see as a game tactic in Europe [actually I saw it a few times, against bad shooters like Steffen Hamann. Real Madrid defended the pick and roll in that way against Bamberg in 07/08]. Larry Brown once said that even an open NBA three pointer from all spots but the corner spots "is a bad shot". A lot of NBA coaches obviously agree with that. I watched Boston-Toronto last season. Toronto won by two points, shooting 15/20, all of those shots wide-open. Doc Rivers said that if an opponent shoots like that, there's nothing you can do. Isn't that much more of a "we'll let him take it and if he makes it, that's winning the game for them and unlucky for us"-philosophy?

Absolutely right. I don't know why NBA fans claim it is much easier to shoot 3s in European game with a closer shot and European fans claim it will be harder to shoot 3's with a farther out line. The only logical answer is that both sides have never seen an actual game of the other being played.

It is actually much easier to shoot 3s in the NBA than it is in at the high quality levels of the European game. Let's say good Euroleague teams that play defense and half court basketball for example. In the NBA you can just about get an open 3 anytime you want. In fact most 3 point shots taken are either completely wide open or are nearly open. There are only a few guys with horrible shot selection that take contested 3s.

You constantly see NBA fans say that its much harder to shoot 3s in the NBA and that percentages from Europe would drop severely in the NBA but that's complete BS and totally stupid. The truth is the percentages will be just about the same because even though the shot is further, it makes it much easier to shoot the shot because it is further.

TWIsM, you can't look at it like a vacuum. Yes the shot will be further out but that also means the defense will be spread further out. Also they will probably have to widen the court which also spreads the floor out. And then once you get more spacing quick players that can penetrate will have a much easier time driving the ball, which will then open up the outside even more.

Now it won't be as open as the NBA because the court will still be smaller and the line will still be closer but they already said eventually it will be made the same. As the changes happen you will see the court begin to open up. Add on top of that the change in the lane will open up the middle more to post players which also will open up the outside shooting more.

In fact guys that specialize in shooting catch and shoot open spot up 3s like Diamantidis and that have good range will be able to get MORE good 3 point looks than they do now.

 

[CG]

i just returned from a little vacations and i have to give the congratulation to OLY about their win
i can understand how much they wanted to take the match.afterall their reactions when the game ended meant something..
PAO even in his bad day could win the game but lost the last Rb.anyway in 99i was soldier.I lost the match of the century in that final match in SEF when Bodiroga lift it there.From what i have seeing untill now PAO has the power to lift it also there.SO i am seeing it like a great task.Someting to remember dont you think?see you in our next match..


PS: OLY still remains in our customer list

 

[T.W.Is.M.]

PS: OLY still remains in our customer list

customer list?
Give me back my receipt! We want 2 b the exclusive customers, not just members of a list!

 

[CG]

customer list?
Give me back my receipt! We want 2 b the exclusive customers, not just members of a list!

in the end of the period you will be exclusive..permanetely...believe me

 

[T.W.Is.M.]

in the end of the period you will be exclusive..permanetely...believe me

Maybe. But what if we won't?

 

[CG]

Maybe. But what if we won't?

so this time it will be more interesting..

 

[KWSN-Men]

Saras will never change though. He just insists on making wild decisions when he has the ball. At any time he can throw about 5-8 turnovers that were totally unforced. That will get you beat every time in a 40 minute game.

Of course some other PAO players can tend to be turnover prone at times like Diamantidis, Spanoulis, Pekovic, Batiste. But it's nothing like the kind of turnovers Saras makes, which are just him trying to throw crazy passes for no reason.

On the other side Papaloukas very rarely does that.

Euroleague:

Saras: 1,9 TOs per game
Diamantidis: 2,1 TOs per game
TO machine: 2,1 TOs per game
Papaloukas: 2,6 TOs per game

Ofcourse, Saras has never thrown 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 turnovers this year, but you are right, he can have an off night.

Spanoulis on the other hand is dependable. You can always count on him making 2-3 TOs on every game. You can always count on him ball-hogging for 15 seconds and passing the ball 2 seconds before 24 are over as well as he did once again last night.

 

[Basketball Player]

Euroleague:

Saras: 1,9 TOs per game
Diamantidis: 2,1 TOs per game
TO machine: 2,1 TOs per game
Papaloukas: 2,6 TOs per game

Ofcourse, Saras has never thrown 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 turnovers this year, but you are right, he can have an off night.

Spanoulis on the other hand is dependable. You can always count on him making 2-3 TOs on every game. You can always count on him ball-hogging for 15 seconds and passing the ball 2 seconds before 24 are over as well as he did once again last night.

Facts are something you ignore. You are an extreme homer/hater with personal biases in everything. There is no way any person can have an actual basketball discussion with you.

 

[KWSN-Men]

1)I love my theory. Especially the fact that since I introduced it, I am entitled 2 use it whenever I want and ignore it whenever results don't fit.

2)Now let's go 2 the "3-pointers-made-category". Come on, u do really well when it comes 2 numbers(as I also do). U can't have missed another thing I noticed. Look at another top 10:3-pt pct.
1.CSKA
2.TAU
3.Olympiacos
4.Siena
5.Barcelona
6.AJ Milano
7.Maccabi
8.Alba Berlin
9.Roma
10.Cibona

Now what do we c here? 10 teams that qualified 4 the top 16. They actually were the only ones in this table that surpassed 35%. We also c that the top 5 consists of teams that probably will advance 2 the quarter-finals, while the rest of the top 10 includes surprise teams(that probably used their good percentage 2 advance or finish higher) and Maccabi.
Now who is missing from the potential top 8? Panathinaikos, Real Madrid and Partizan. Panathinaikos was an underachiever in the regular season. The team's 3p pct now is 38.6%, obviously enough 2 bring them in the top 10, while they r shooting 51.4% in the top 16! Real Madrid has also improved its percentages, they r still low with 33.5%, but they r shooting 35.8% in the top 16, which is an improvement. Partizan now has raised the overall pct to 35.9%, while they r shooting 39.3% in the top 16.
Let's go 2 the other side. Which of these teams have the worst results in the top 16? Maccabi and Roma. Maccabi's pct has dropped to 33.5% and to 27.3% in the top 16(21.7% excluding the 31-point win over Alba). In Rome things r even worse. Lottomatica now shoots 31.5% and a poor 25.8% in the top 16.
So it seems 2 me that the teams that shoot well win more. And don't forget that a good shooting 4th quarter(or second half) can change things too.

3)Yesterday the pct were as u said above:29% for Oly, 46% for PAO. But the shots were 5/19 for Oly, 6/13 for PAO. Panathinaikos is a team that depends more on long-range shots than Olympiacos(and is better at this too). By shooting just 13 times, they could not utilize that element of their game. I know u will say that this comes in contrast with my previous claims. But my point is that 3p shots became sth close 2 a non-factor in that particular game 4 PAO.

P.S. It took me more than half an hour 2 find and calculate the numbers I wrote. There is nothing I omitted from what I've looked at. Do u think I would dedicate that time 2 search, if I didn't believe that the outcome of the search would suit what I wanted 2 say?

1) Statistics are really cool. You can always find what you are looking for if you look really hard.

2) Let's take your list and make it a bit bigger.

1.CSKA
2.TAU
3.Olympiacos
4.Siena
5.Barcelona
6.AJ Milano
7.Maccabi
8.Alba Berlin
9.Roma
10.Cibona
11. Le Mans
.
.
.
21. Real Madrid

So we have all top 10 teams making it in the Top16. But Le Mans that was #11 didn't make it and Real Madrid that was #21 did.

Now let's see another list. This time for 2p shots.

1. Panathinaikos
2. Olympiakos
3. Tau
4. Barcelona
5. Efes
6. Maccabi
7. CSKA
8. Real Madrid
9. Siena
10. Unicaja
11. Alba
12. Cibona
13. Partizan
14. Ferbahce Ulker
15. Roma
16. Milano
.
.
.
24. Prokom

We can see here that 9/10 teams made it to the Top 16. Only team that didn't make it was Efes, but they came close to making it. The fact that out of 24 teams, they were 23rd in rebounds held them back.

In fact, with the exception of Prokom, the top 16 teams in 2p % are the teams that actually advanced in the Top 16 of Euroleague as well. Prokom that made it was last, but they really were a bad team and they went through at the last moment. The fact that they were the best rebounding team in the EL helped as well.

So it seems to me that teams that make their 2p shots, go through and the trend is more consistent than the 3p trend you are trying to establish.


3) Panathinaikos had 59% 2 point shooting in the regular season of the EL and has 61% in the Top 16 so far. In yesterday's game PAO had 45%. Enough said.

 

[KWSN-Men]

Now it won't be as open as the NBA because the court will still be smaller and the line will still be closer but they already said eventually it will be made the same. As the changes happen you will see the court begin to open up. Add on top of that the change in the lane will open up the middle more to post players which also will open up the outside shooting more.

So please provide a link where "they" said that the court dimension will become bigger, next year or eventually in 5 or 10 or 15 years. But not something "you heard on ESPN" this time.

Facts are something you ignore. You are an extreme homer/hater with personal biases in everything. There is no way any person can have an actual basketball discussion with you.

I talk with numbers readily available on the EL website, you talk out of your ass. Who knows facts now?

 

[Basketball Player]

So please provide a link where "they" said that the court dimension will become bigger, next year or eventually in 5 or 10 or 15 years. But not something "you heard on ESPN" this time.



I talk with numbers readily available on the EL website, you talk out of your ass. Who knows facts now?

Everyone on the forum knows you are an extreme hater/homer. You either worship a certain player or hate them to no end. And you see the entire basketball world through green colored glasses. Everyone on the forum also knows no one can have a real basketball discussion with you because that's just how you are.

 

[KWSN-Men]

If u can find a frontline player in Europe that can do all the things that he can(2 some extent it could b Ksystof Lavrinovic), tell me about him. U may find better centers or PFs, but it's difficult 2 find a match.
If u don't c the impact Bouroussis has on the game of Olympiacos, then I hope u will have the chances 2 notice that in the near future.

How many do you want me to mention?

I am not saying he is a bad player, on the contrary. But comparing him to Diamantidis as an influence on any team they play on....

Do u really believe he is not foul prone?
Last season is just half a year away. Do u think he learnt 2 avoid fouls in a few months? He just plays 4 a much deeper team this season and it's easier 4 his coach 2 protect him. Besides, if I recall well(correct me if I'm wrong), at the beginning of the season Batiste started most of the games instead of him, so by entering the game after the opening minutes he was more protected by a couple of quick fouls that would bench him 4 a long period.
And of course I have 2 remind u that the main strategy of Olympiacos against Pekovic should b 2 get him into foul trouble. Even I can c that, let alone the coaching staff. The tactic paid off twice and didn't pay off once. Just remember that Schortsanitis started the derby in OAKA. It's easy 2 find the reason.

There is one player except Pekovic that can play the C in Panathinaikos, that is Batiste. There was just one other option in Partizan, Vranes. so when it comes to bench depth, although the quality is different, the players remain the same, 1.

But again, what was happening last year doesn't justify anything for this year. You said it yourself that last year's performance doesn't secure anything for this year. So this year, from all the teams that Panathinaikos faced, Giannakis was the only one to to see how to get him into foul trouble. Nobody, not even his old coach in Partizan new the way, only Giannakis had an epiphany and found a way.

Maybe I will. I just think that half a meter can make a difference. Maybe because I can hit a shot from 6.25 easier than 6.75 or 5.75, that's why I believe it would b easier 4 everybody else. Time will tell.

If they erase the line on the court you usually play and take it half a meter further and you start making many shot every day, I am pretty sure in a couple of months it will be like nothing changed.

Yes, u r right about that. Greer taking a rebound from Diamantidis is out of the ordinary. He actually didn't take the rebound though. He just slapped the ball 2 Papaloukas' hands, but even this is not so natural indeed.
But if u can justify the 3/3 3p shots in the last 5 minutes of a final by claiming that he was wide open, he is a clutch player, a good shooter and he has won numerous games in his career, which r facts that I accept, I can justify that rebound too. U c, the shooter always knows better where the ball goes after his shot(4 example, haven't u felt that a shot will drop at the moment the ball leaves your hands?), so he may understood that the ball may not go in and chased the rebound. Besides, it was the last minute of the game, everybody is going 4 every ball. And slapping the ball away from the hands of an opponent is always easier than taking the rebound yourself.

Actually, Greer tipped the ball, which fell on the floor and came to where Papaloukas happened to be. But are we talking semantics here?

 

[KWSN-Men]

Everyone on the forum knows you are an extreme hater/homer. You either worship a certain player or hate them to no end. And you see the entire basketball world through green colored glasses. Everyone on the forum also knows no one can have a real basketball discussion with you because that's just how you are.

Again, I talk numbers, you make things up. And this is not the only forum that you post "news" that only you know, "facts" that exist only in your mind. And for some strange reason, you end up changing your nickname in order to continue posting, after the blatant lies and flatulent pompus statements you make all the time. And again, not only on this forum but numerous basketball forums where you are notorious for doing this.

 

[Basketball Player]

Again, I talk numbers, you make things up. And this is not the only forum that you post "news" that only you know, "facts" that exist only in your mind. And for some strange reason, you end up changing your nickname in order to continue posting, after the blatant lies and flatulent pompus statements you make all the time. And again, not only on this forum but numerous basketball forums where you are notorious for doing this.

Your numbers first of all were only Euroleague. Second they were not per minute, nor were they per possession, nor per touch. Secondly you simply lied about Saras never having such turnover games.........

Third, you used your own special method of creative nicknames for a player you hate - "turnover machine" then showed how another player actually has more turnovers but just call him by name. Why did you not make up an appropriate one like "turnover king" for him then?

Finally, you then proceed to say you posted "facts". Your act is bothersome for everyone on the forum. It really is. And your insistence on personal attacks is way over the line.

Quite frankly, you give PAO fans everywhere a really awful reputation.

 

[KWSN-Men]

Your numbers first of all were only Euroleague. Second they were not per minute, nor were they per possession, nor per touch. Secondly you simply lied about Saras never having such turnover games.........

Yes, my numbers were only Euroleague. Does that make them a lie? So if I lied, please let us know in which game this year Saras had 5 or more TOs in Euroleague.

You want more? OK!

Before yesterday's game Saras had 2,05 TOs per game in the A1. Spanoulis had 2,35 TOs per game. Before yesterday's game Saras had 1 TO every 8,97 minutes while Spanoulis had 1 TO every 7,75 minutes. Detailed per game statistics are not available on the official stats site so please let us know which other time this year Saras had 5 or more TOs in one game. A fact, not something you heard on TV.

Third, you used your own special method of creative nicknames for a player you hate - "turnover machine" then showed how another player actually has more turnovers but just call him by name. Why did you not make up an appropriate one like "turnover king" for him then?

Actually, "Turnover Machine" is a nickname I can't take credit for. Spanoulis was awarded this name by his ex coach, not me. Nobody has awarded a similar nickname to Papaloukas. The fact that I used it for your "eternal beloved" doesn't mean I made it up, just that it hit a nerve, as was my purpose.

Finally, you then proceed to say you posted "facts". Your act is bothersome for everyone on the forum. It really is. And your insistence on personal attacks is way over the line.

Quite frankly, you give PAO fans everywhere a really awful reputation.

Again, I strongly urge you to let us know where you got your facts about Saras making 8 TOs this year and "them" saying that the court will get bigger. This in not a personal atttack but a call for facts. So give them to us. Make me a fool, show the numbers. Make me a liar, say you are not making up "news" on various NBA related forums where you have been banned repeatedly.

Quite frankly, it was you that started the infamous "PAO undefeated season" thread that made other forum members talk about arrogant PAO fans.