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Thread: Who should have won the 1996 Euroleague title?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neozyrus View Post
    All right

    As u mention that the clock is stopped, we should question, why it was stopped: Nothing really hard happened in the court, refs didnt whistled, Pao just lost the ball clearly and 4 men of Barca were running free to Pao's basket. An then the clock stops... ok another refs/official's mistake that made Barca lose the title.
    We're on the same point.
    You re wrong and I think I had an epiphany.

    I solved the mystery after 13 years.

    Now I get why the clock stops.

    The clock stops because PAOs 30 sec offense is over. There is no NEW possesion by Barca , as two players of a same team have to touch the ball in order a new possession to be granted.

    Here thats not the case. Giannakis loses the ball, a barca players throughs the ball forward , but korfas jumps, touches the ball to sent in even further, thus preventing barca from getting a news possession.

    Look what happens. There are 35 sec remaining ( we need a full video of the last 35 secs), PAO starts his offense after his offensive rebound.
    5 secs before the end giannakis loses the ball, but there is no NEW possession as the ball is LOOSE. Nobody has the ball. The possession of PAO ends and nobody has the ball. The ball goes after giannakis to a barca player, then to korfas , THEN eventually to montero. Barca according to the rules , starts a new possession only when montero grabs at last the ball. Between giannakis losing the ball, and montero getting the ball , there are 2-3 secs where NOBODY has the ball. Consoquently It s is BY THE BOOK ,considered as a continuation of PAOs offense. Since PAOs offense is over and nobody has the possesion, the ball has to be given to barca from the side for a final 4.9 sec offense.

    Now I get.

    I ,dont know if every body got what I wanted to say, but now it s christal clear for me.

  2. #22
    Senior Member KWSN-Men's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    Barcelona
    Massimo Iakopini, what a great player...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KWSN-Men View Post
    Massimo Iakopini, what a great player...
    indeed what a memories
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    Senior Member Neozyrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKY 13 View Post
    You re wrong and I think I had an epiphany.

    I solved the mystery after 13 years.

    Now I get why the clock stops.

    The clock stops because PAOs 30 sec offense is over. There is no NEW possesion by Barca , as two players of a same team have to touch the ball in order a new possession to be granted.

    Here thats not the case. Giannakis loses the ball, a barca players throughs the ball forward , but korfas jumps, touches the ball to sent in even further, thus preventing barca from getting a news possession.

    Look what happens. There are 35 sec remaining ( we need a full video of the last 35 secs), PAO starts his offense after his offensive rebound.
    5 secs before the end giannakis loses the ball, but there is no NEW possession as the ball is LOOSE. Nobody has the ball. The possession of PAO ends and nobody has the ball. The ball goes after giannakis to a barca player, then to korfas , THEN eventually to montero. Barca according to the rules , starts a new possession only when montero grabs at last the ball. Between giannakis losing the ball, and montero getting the ball , there are 2-3 secs where NOBODY has the ball. Consoquently It s is BY THE BOOK ,considered as a continuation of PAOs offense. Since PAOs offense is over and nobody has the possesion, the ball has to be given to barca from the side for a final 4.9 sec offense.

    Now I get.

    I ,dont know if every body got what I wanted to say, but now it s christal clear for me.
    Yeah i remember that argument and that really could be an explanation if it wasnt by the fact that Barcelona's player clearly catches the ball with aprox 6.5 sec to go( or so - im using my memory here), -afaik thats enough to have a new possesion- , so still it wasnt a full possesion.
    And anyway, no siren sound, the people in the table didnt say nothing about the possesion at that time and the refs, that actually had the final decission about this, didnt say something about that neither, so the truth is, that in theory, there was no reason to stop the clock cause actually "nobody" did it.

    If the table would have stopped the time for ending the possesion, then the refs would have stopped the game bacelona would have begun a new play from the line, but they didnt cause it wasnt a full posession, so that ends with the illegal block of Vrankovic and so on....
    Last edited by Neozyrus; 04-04-2009 at 05:33 PM.
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    Senior Member Jon_Koncak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KWSN-Men View Post
    Massimo Iakopini, what a great player...
    You always have to have the final world don't you?

    Actually it was some hairy monster called Ragazzi who killed us then

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neozyrus View Post
    Yeah i remember that argument and that really could be an explanation if it wasnt by the fact that Barcelona's player clearly catches the ball with aprox 6.5 sec to go( or so - im using my memory here), -afaik thats enough to have a new possesion- , so still it wasnt a full possesion.
    And anyway, no siren sound, the people in the table didnt say nothing about the possesion at that time and the refs, that actually had the final decission about this, didnt say something about that neither, so the truth is, that in theory, there was no reason to stop the clock cause actually "nobody" did it.

    This is the complet video of the last minutes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYjh-...eature=related

    I m sorry but where do you see any spanish player clearly catching the ball???

    After giannakis loses the ball, I see a spanish player trying to catch the ball , but fall and while falling , pushes the ball forward , to another spanish player.
    However korfas intercepts the ball and pushes it further to montero.

    there in no spanish possession until montero catches the ball and every obejective person can see that. The ball when giannakis loses it, until montero catches it , is LOOSE.

    Consequently, PAOs offense ending, the shotclock froze according to the rules.
    The fact that nobody notices it, and everybody continues playing doesnt mean, the game shoud continue like nothing happened.

    Again the most fair thing was to give barca one last possession of 4.9 secs.
    thats the objective approach by the RULES OF BASKETBALL.

    Any other expanation is a subjective one, influences by either greens or spanish glasses.

  7. #27
    Senior Member CG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKY 13 View Post
    This is the complet video of the last minutes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYjh-...eature=related

    I m sorry but where do you see any spanish player clearly catching the ball???

    After giannakis loses the ball, I see a spanish player trying to catch the ball , but fall and while falling , pushes the ball forward , to another spanish player.
    However korfas intercepts the ball and pushes it further to montero.

    there in no spanish possession until montero catches the ball and every obejective person can see that. The ball when giannakis loses it, until montero catches it , is LOOSE.

    Consequently, PAOs offense ending, the shotclock froze according to the rules.
    The fact that nobody notices it, and everybody continues playing doesnt mean, the game shoud continue like nothing happened.

    Again the most fair thing was to give barca one last possession of 4.9 secs.
    thats the objective approach by the RULES OF BASKETBALL.

    Any other expanation is a subjective one, influences by either greens or spanish glasses.

    you are right
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy green View Post
    you are not objective.You are spaniard
    next please
    I'll be next

    Barcelona should have won

    /will root for Pao in F4

  9. #29
    Senior Member Neozyrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKY 13 View Post
    This is the complet video of the last minutes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYjh-...eature=related

    I m sorry but where do you see any spanish player clearly catching the ball???

    After giannakis loses the ball, I see a spanish player trying to catch the ball , but fall and while falling , pushes the ball forward , to another spanish player.
    However korfas intercepts the ball and pushes it further to montero.

    there in no spanish possession until montero catches the ball and every obejective person can see that. The ball when giannakis loses it, until montero catches it , is LOOSE.

    Consequently, PAOs offense ending, the shotclock froze according to the rules.
    The fact that nobody notices it, and everybody continues playing doesnt mean, the game shoud continue like nothing happened.

    Again the most fair thing was to give barca one last possession of 4.9 secs.
    thats the objective approach by the RULES OF BASKETBALL.

    Any other expanation is a subjective one, influences by either greens or spanish glasses.

    I dont know what video are you watching, but the truth is that the guy whose korfas later touches his pass clearly Catches the ball. When one player catches the ball, (and as the refs and table probably saw it too, you have there the reason why the game wasnt stopped) as you can see many times in a game, is a new possesion and again i repeat that happens before the possesion ends man.

    Im not saying im not subjective about this, but i think that the video clearly showed that refs commited a awful mistake against barca.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member CG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuDux View Post
    I'll be next

    Barcelona should have won

    /will root for Pao in F4
    i will have my eyes on you to see if you telling us the truth then
    nexttttttt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neozyrus View Post
    I dont know what video are you watching, but the truth is that the guy whose korfas later touches his pass clearly Catches the ball. When one player catches the ball, (and as the refs and table probably saw it too, you have there the reason why the game wasnt stopped) as you can see many times in a game, is a new possesion and again i repeat that happens before the possesion ends man.

    Im not saying im not subjective about this, but i think that the video clearly showed that refs commited a awful mistake against barca.
    Ok that your opinion and I respect it.
    But i would like to hear the opinion of some neutral fan ( not greek or spaniard) about if the spanish player catched the ball.

    Because sincerelly to my mind , there is no possession until montero grabs the ball. After giannakis loses the ball and until montero catches it , 2 persons touch tha ball from two different team in like 1 second.

    thats not a possession, it s like playing tennis. The one throwing the ball to the other

  12. #32
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy green View Post
    i will have my eyes on you to see if you telling us the truth then
    PAO
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    Oly

  13. #33
    Senior Member Neozyrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKY 13 View Post
    Ok that your opinion and I respect it.
    But i would like to hear the opinion of some neutral fan ( not greek or spaniard) about if the spanish player catched the ball.

    Because sincerelly to my mind , there is no possession until montero grabs the ball. After giannakis loses the ball and until montero catches it , 2 persons touch tha ball from two different team in like 1 second.

    thats not a possession, it s like playing tennis. The one throwing the ball to the other
    Firt of all, all my respect to you too, its fun to have these discussions

    And other thing about the clock issue, how can be it stopped because of the possesion?, cause Pao possesion started with more than 36 seconds left, how did it stopped because of the possesion when it lasted 4.8??, If it was stopped it could be just another mistake, cause the numbers just dont do

    I think that nobody really stopped the clock because of shot clock 'cause everybody thought that there was new Barca possesion cause a barca player had the ball, before the Pao's one ended, but as u said, thats only my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuDux View Post
    PAO
    CSKA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    You always have to have the final world don't you?

    Actually it was some hairy monster called Ragazzi who killed us then
    How can you expect me to remember everything? It is like 100 years have passed since PAOK was in a F4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neozyrus View Post
    Firt of all, all my respect to you too, its fun to have these discussions

    And other thing about the clock issue, how can be it stopped because of the possesion?, cause Pao possesion started with more than 36 seconds left, how did it stopped because of the possesion when it lasted 4.8??, If it was stopped it could be just another mistake, cause the numbers just dont do
    .
    Yes it s true that this thing is weird. I checked the replay and vrankovic grabs the offensive rebound with 36.4 seconds left.
    Normally we should assume that the clock should have stopped arround the 6th second and not 5th.

    But maybe they lost one second until renewing the possession after stojans rebound, thus explaining the 4.9 sec left.

    Anyway it s true that the whole situation is pretty unclear, and I have to admit that barcelona was really unlucky , because worse case scenario for them, they should have gotten at least a 5 second last offense, wich is more than enough for a decent shot to victory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    You always have to have the final world don't you?

    Actually it was some hairy monster called Ragazzi who killed us then
    Let's not foget Ricky Brown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKY 13 View Post
    The rule is that when the clock stops, the game stops.
    And what the rule says next?

    Why do you think PAO deserved to win anyway regardless of what happened, even though according to the normal flow of the game Barcelona should have won it by 1 point margin?
    Last edited by Olympiakos; 04-04-2009 at 09:18 PM.
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    So much time has passed, it's so hard to say what happened. Everybody has either cemented their opinions or changed their opinions to suit their team's political needs.

    Personally, I agree with Franky13 that Barcelona should have gotten the ball back to replay the final 5 seconds. Unfortunately, that didn't happen and Barcelona got the "short end of the stick."

    The worst thing about debating this is that I really can't see the video very clearly, so I won't bother giving my non-objective opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKY 13 View Post
    Ok that your opinion and I respect it.
    But i would like to hear the opinion of some neutral fan ( not greek or spaniard) about if the spanish player catched the ball.
    First, I just want to say I have only watched the film once and if I was reffing, this is what I would have seen. Also, I dont know all the rules so some of what I might say may be illegal in terms of ruling, but here it goes.

    I don't think anyone had control of the ball until Montero attempted to up with the layup, but was blocked. It looks like a Barca player slapped it forward to Montero. Now, I counted 7 seconds where the clock was frozen and Barca was able to try and set up an offense. Now the advantage to Barca, but they failed to even get a shot off and had an EXTRA 7-8 SECONDS! They had 11-12 seconds to get at least a good shot or drive and couldnt fo that. Maybe Barca was anticipating a call since they seemed to notice for a second or to the clock may have stopped. The clock, It seems as if it was because the 30 sec clock ran out and it seems the game clock froze to indicate so, but the refs didnt notice this. Whoever was running the clock must have manually started the clock after realizing that no whistle was being blown. If I was a ref, I would have restarted the ball, inbound from the side at halfcourt with 4.9 sec Barca ball. As unfair as it may be to PAO since they ended stopping them, you have to be fair for each side. Barca got 7 seconds extra offense, PAO disadvantage at first, but then they get that cahnce to set up while Barca doesnt know what to do. If Barca scored for real, PAO crys foul and who knows how that may have turned out.

    This is just my opinion, watching only once. What do you think? I didnt know how to word some of this, so ask me questions if dont understand or just curious about something.
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