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Thread: Personal International FIBA ranking

  1. #1
    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Default Personal International FIBA ranking

    I've seen the Ranking system on the FIBA site and it makes no sense to me.
    So, I thought it would be nice to make an individual international ranking chard.

    Here goes mine:

    1. USA
    2. Argentina
    3. Serbia
    4. Spain
    5. Lithuania
    6. Greece
    7. France
    8. Russia
    9. Croatia
    10.Turkey
    11.Italy
    12.Brazil
    13.Puerto Rico
    14.Slovenia
    15.Germany
    16.Australia
    17.China
    18.New Zealand
    19.Israel
    20.Canada


    Some comments:

    1. I consider all the teams to be complete (with NBA players)
    2. Estimates are made based on recent potentials and not based on 4 years circles or something like that.
    3. I may be giving Brazil (as Americas champion) a bad deal. But that's because I haven't seen them play for years in an international tournament. So forgive me.
    Italy is ofcourse a great basketball country, but the comming two years they'll be preparing a new yourng team so I did not rank them at the very top for now.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Civilis's Avatar
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    Imho, FIBA ranking makes as much sense as any other ranking Besides, I don't see so many changes in your TOP10 compared to the official one except for shuffling some teams within it

    ok, you switch the places by putting Spain above Lithuania. The last time Spain won against Lithuania in an official match was quarterfinals of 1999. Besides, it always had full roster with its stars, while LTU did not have names like Ilgauskas... (your ranking measures the "potential"). Besides, LTU has won all friendly and official games against Argentina for the last 6 years, and did not suffer any defeat (from what I remember) against Serbia neither in Eurobasket, nor Olympics since 1998 (except the friendly Diamond Ball in Belgrade).

    Your ranking, as you say, is based on the complete rosters with NBA players. But as the recent experience shows, the number of NBA players is even detrimental to team's success... If that was not the case, France and Slovenia would definitely be higher than places No.7 and No. 14 respectively (both countries will have 7 players in NBA from 2006 on)...

    In general, I would say that nowadays the European teams are very equal, and the NBA factor is no longer of such great importance (if not otherwise) when we look at them as the "teams", not as the "collections of individuals" (who are often media-overhyped "stars"). I still would say:

    1. USA (for its depth)
    2. Argentina, Serbia, Lithuania, Spain, France
    3. Greece, Turkey, Croatia, Italy, Russia, Brazil (?), maybe Slovenia (still has to prove it)
    As for the rest:
    I find Germany very hard to place for its overdependence on super-Dirk
    Australia - it still is in the generation transition (hard to place)
    China - sleeping giant (God knows how long it will sleep)
    Puerto Rico - unpredictable passion (sometimes lack of brains)
    New Zealand - always a black horse ready to surprise others and themselves
    Canada - Nash is no Dirk, Canada is no Germany
    Israel - could potentially join my 3rd placed teams, but not there yet

    That much about this FIBA "ranking philosophy" (I also find Eurobasket undervalued compared to the global games in the ranking system)
    Last edited by Civilis; 07-28-2006 at 09:53 AM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civilis

    ok, you switch the places by putting Spain above Lithuania. The last time Spain won against Lithuania in an official match was quarterfinals of 1999.
    Comparisons between teams are dubious. I think Greece also has a positive record against Spain, but I rated Spain higher anyway.

    Your ranking, as you say, is based on the complete rosters with NBA players. But as the recent experience shows, the number of NBA players is even detrimental to team's success... If that was not the case, France and Slovenia would definitely be higher than places No.7 and No. 14 respectively (both countries will have 7 players in NBA from 2006 on)...
    Some teams are not performing better with the NBA stars on their rosters. Turkey might be a good example for this. Others though, would definately perform better. Take Serbia (with Stojakovic, Kristic), Lithuania (with Saras) and China (with Yao Ming), Germany (speaks for itself) and France (let them play a tournament without their NBA stars, they'll suck bigtime)



    In general, I would say that nowadays the European teams are very equal, and the NBA factor is no longer of such great importance (if not otherwise) when we look at them as the "teams", not as the "collections of individuals" (who are often media-overhyped "stars"). I still would say:

    1. USA (for its depth)
    2. Argentina, Serbia, Lithuania, Spain, France
    3. Greece, Turkey, Croatia, Italy, Russia, Brazil (?), maybe Slovenia (still has to prove it)
    1. European teams are indeed very equal.
    2. NBA players not an important factor anymore, but you still are veru much biased because of them.
    You ranked France above Greece even though they have lost twice against them in the last tournament. In fact, they have not beaten Greece since ages. You also put Serbia on the same level with Argentina even though they achieved nothing in the last olympics and the EC. Is it because of Peja and co.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Civilis's Avatar
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    I agree with most things you say
    Some points I'd like to stress:

    1. I do not underestimate the NBA "stars", but some teams can do pretty fine without them (recent examples of LTU, GRE) - on the national-team level success on a huge degree depends on creating the right links inside the team in a very short period of time.

    2. Each team has its "convenient" and "inconvenient" opponents (e.g. "convenient" opponents for Lithuania are Greece, Turkey (do not remember losing an official match lately), recently - Serbia (in cases LTU has good team cemistry and some individual players "with character" like Saras or Macas to withstand provocations on court), while "inconvenient" opponent is France (very physical game, tough defense against mobile LTU attack), but which seems to be a "convenient" opponent for Greece, which also boasts physical strength under the basket) - al this makes it difficult to assess the true strength of teams in the whole picture.

    3. I put Serbia on par with Argentina, Lithuania, Spain because of its true potential, not because of some late failures. I am sure Serbia will be back to the top very soon.

    4. I gave some extra credits to France because I see they have an up-and-coming young team with lots of potential (though I am not a fan of this type of "jump-over-your-man" basketball and I'd still prefer a more "ethnically French" team )

    5. Not sure yet about the future of Argentina after their golden generation (who considered seriously Argentina some 6-8 years ago? In 1996 in Atlanta they defeated Lithuania in a group-match and their coach called this "the greatest ever achievement of Argentinian basketball" )

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    well that are just personal ranking an opinion each fan has.
    Imho considering there are 9-11 countries in Europe able to win it all, rankings itself doesn't really make any sense... and everybody are looking through their own perspective, As a Slovenian I'd go with- we haven't lost against Italy for 5-6-7 years now, can't remember when we lost the last time against Turkey, Russia... against Greece i think we've lost 1 game out of 5 played (and that loss I think was way back)... so my guess would be I'd rate my team higher than those teams, looking from only my point of view...

    after USA, only complete Serbia, Spain, Argentina and Lithuania have some mentionable advantage after other teams... no other team deserves a mention among those 4, eventhough they're not that much behind

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    Senior Member Petran's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Victorious]I've seen the Ranking system on the FIBA site and it makes no sense to me.
    So, I thought it would be nice to make an individual international ranking chard.

    Here goes mine:

    1. USA
    2. Argentina
    3. Serbia
    4. Spain
    5. Lithuania
    6. Greece
    7. France
    8. Russia
    9. Croatia
    10.Turkey
    11.Italy
    12.Brazil
    13.Puerto Rico
    14.Slovenia
    15.Germany
    16.Australia
    17.China
    18.New Zealand
    19.Israel
    20.Canada
    [QUOTE=Victorious]

    Some comments, mostly about my mother country but not only.

    Honestly speaking, I really can't understand why Greece is under Spain or under Serbia and Lithuania. I don't see anything intimitading in their roster. Times are changing, there is no longer the golden Generation in Serbia. Right now most of the older players are declining. Only Peja is in his prime. Spain was loaded in the EC, but didn't manage it. LTU is a force to be reckoned with, but they are not intimidating. Only Macas and Saras are world class. (Before someone kicks me, my definition of "world class" means players that can create a difference, not only compete in the higher level).

    I am also not convinced regarding US. For the four past years, they are trying to do their best but keep failing. These guys are simply not suited for the international game, until proven otherwise. If they played in the NBA they would kill everybody, but the game is simply different here.

    Nevertheless, the International Game is simply up for grabs right now. If you do expect anyone to cruise in the next World Champs, you are mistaken.
    Last edited by Petran; 07-28-2006 at 06:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petran
    Honestly speaking, I really can't understand why Greece is under Spain or under Serbia and Lithuania. I don't see anything intimitading in their roster. Times are changing, there is no longer the golden Generation in Serbia. Right now most of the older players are declining. Only Peja is in his prime. Spain was loaded in the EC, but didn't manage it. LTU is a force to be reckoned with, but they are not intimidating. Only Macas and Saras are world class. (Before someone kicks me, my definition of "world class" means players that can create a difference, not only compete in the higher level).
    just look at the possible strongest Lithuanian roster

    starting five:

    PG: ?aras (you said it yuorself)
    SG: Macas (yuo said it yourself too)
    SG-SF: ?i?kaukas (not world class...pff... he practically handed on his own the italian league title to Benneton)
    PF: Lavrinovi?ius D. (he can create a difference, he showed that in euroleague this year)
    C: Ilgauskas (hes like among top 3 pure C in world right now after Yao and Shaq, how can he not make a difference?)

    bench:

    SG: Kauk?nas (MVP of Italian league)
    SF's: Kleiza, Jasaitis, Timinskas (Kleiza is a monster already and he's only 21, he will become very famous soon, Jasaitis can only compete though as you said, just as Timinskas, though the last one has no fear and can fight anyone)
    PF: Songaila and Lavrinovi?ius K. (Lav.K. is an exact copy of his brother, not only by looks, but also by his game)
    C: Javtokas

    remember what happened when a weaker Lith side played Greece in front of your own fans?

    though a team like this will probably never be gathered and it's so fckin
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    Last edited by pablonis; 08-14-2011 at 03:13 AM.

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    Senior Member Jokinen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civilis

    5. Not sure yet about the future of Argentina after their golden generation (who considered seriously Argentina some 6-8 years ago? In 1996 in Atlanta they defeated Lithuania in a group-match and their coach called this "the greatest ever achievement of Argentinian basketball" )
    I don't recall Argentinian coach saying that, plus Argentina had already won the WC, I think that was pretty much more important

  9. #9
    Senior Member Civilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokinen
    I don't recall Argentinian coach saying that, plus Argentina had already won the WC, I think that was pretty much more important
    I absolutely remember him saying that 10 years ago, but maybe he meant the overall Argentinian performance in Olympics Actually, that loss to Argetina meant that Lithuania could not avoid meeting the "Dream Team III" in the semis, sniff....
    Last edited by Civilis; 07-29-2006 at 08:21 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Some of you guys who don't agree with the rankings. Just make your own. After all, that is the purpose of this thread.

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    if all best players would come and if (in case of USA and Serbia) they would deal with their individualism and arrogance:

    1. USA
    2. Lithuania
    3. Serbia
    4. Spain
    5. Argentina
    6. Greece
    7. France
    8. Brazil
    9. Croatia
    10. Slovenia
    11. Russia
    12. Australia
    13. Turkey
    14. Italy
    15. Puerto Rico
    16. New Zealand
    17. Germany
    18. Canada
    19. China
    ...
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    Last edited by pablonis; 08-14-2011 at 03:15 AM.

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    Senior Member Saskibaloia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious
    I've seen the Ranking system on the FIBA site and it makes no sense to me.
    So, I thought it would be nice to make an individual international ranking chard.

    Here goes mine:

    1. USA
    2. Argentina
    3. Serbia
    4. Spain
    5. Lithuania
    6. Greece
    7. France
    8. Russia
    9. Croatia
    10.Turkey
    11.Italy
    12.Brazil
    13.Puerto Rico
    14.Slovenia
    15.Germany
    16.Australia
    17.China
    18.New Zealand
    19.Israel
    20.Canada


    Some comments:

    1. I consider all the teams to be complete (with NBA players)
    2. Estimates are made based on recent potentials and not based on 4 years circles or something like that.
    3. I may be giving Brazil (as Americas champion) a bad deal. But that's because I haven't seen them play for years in an international tournament. So forgive me.
    Italy is ofcourse a great basketball country, but the comming two years they'll be preparing a new yourng team so I did not rank them at the very top for now.
    You may call me anti USA but sorry I feel either Lithuania or Serbia or for that matter Argentina should be number 1 ranked. Sorry USA ain't the best. The NBA is the best league BUT for me they don't have the best NT and I reckon the Euroleague clubs can compete against the NBA's best (you may think I'm an idiot BUT bring on the Spurs, Pistons and Heat to take on Maccabi, Tau Ceramica - Baskonia Vitoria (my favourite Euroleague team) and the rest who are built on team work and basketball fundamentals and you'll see my point. INTERNATIONAL BASKETBALL RULES !!!


    Here's my PERSONAL rankings:

    1. Lithuania
    2. Argentina
    3. USA
    4. Serbia
    5. Spain
    6. Italy
    7. Puerto Rico
    8. Greece
    9. Germany
    10. Australia

    Other mentions: Lebanon belongs in the top 20.
    Philippines is definitely not ranked 65 rather in the top 30 EASILY

    Personal fantasy rankings:

    1. Australia
    2. Philippines
    3. Lebanon

    Last: USA

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Saskibaloia; 07-31-2006 at 08:15 AM. Reason: Reminder: Thread title is PERSONAL International FIBA ranking
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Nikoo's Avatar
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    I reckon the Euroleague clubs can compete against the NBA's best (you may think I'm an idiot BUT bring on the Spurs, Pistons and Heat to take on Maccabi, Tau Ceramica - Baskonia Vitoria (my favourite Euroleague team)

    I cant wait October to see how Clips, 76rs and co are manhandling all teams by 30 points
    Last edited by stuart; 07-30-2006 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Reminder: Thread title is Personal International FIBA ranking

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    Senior Member L8DBACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saskibaloia
    You may call me anti USA but sorry I feel either Lithuania or Serbia or for that matter Argentina should be number 1 ranked. Sorry USA ain't the best. The NBA is the best league BUT for me they don't have the best NT and I reckon the Euroleague clubs can compete against the NBA's best (you may think I'm an idiot BUT bring on the Spurs, Pistons and Heat to take on Maccabi, Tau Ceramica - Baskonia Vitoria (my favourite Euroleague team) Cheers.
    Saski you have always been baised against the US not matter how well they play. Even when they played in the Sidney Olympics you were even disgusted about them winning the gold medal. The Spurs, Pistons, and the Heat have been playing as a team for many years compared to the US National Team that is put together in a few months. They would play very well against Maccabi, Tau Ceramica, or Baskonia Vitoria. But anyway, I still respect your honest views or thoughts even though we may have difference of opinions.

  15. #15
    Senior Member BiHBasket's Avatar
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    My European ranking:

    1. France
    2. Serbia
    3. Spain
    4. Lithuania
    5. Greece
    6. Turkey
    7. Latvia
    8. Slovenia
    9. Czech Republic
    10. Germany
    11. Russia
    12. Croatia
    13. Italy
    14. Finland
    15. Ukraine
    16. Montenegro
    17. Bosnia and Herzegovina
    18. Georgia
    19. Poland
    20. Israel
    Last edited by BiHBasket; 09-19-2018 at 10:40 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Civilis View Post
    Imho, FIBA ranking makes as much sense as any other ranking Besides, I don't see so many changes in your TOP10 compared to the official one except for shuffling some teams within it

    ok, you switch the places by putting Spain above Lithuania. The last time Spain won against Lithuania in an official match was quarterfinals of 1999. Besides, it always had full roster with its stars, while LTU did not have names like Ilgauskas... (your ranking measures the "potential"). Besides, LTU has won all friendly and official games against Argentina for the last 6 years, and did not suffer any defeat (from what I remember) against Serbia neither in Eurobasket, nor Olympics since 1998 (except the friendly Diamond Ball in Belgrade).

    Your ranking, as you say, is based on the complete rosters with NBA players. But as the recent experience shows, the number of NBA players is even detrimental to team's success... If that was not the case, France and Slovenia would definitely be higher than places No.7 and No. 14 respectively (both countries will have 7 players in NBA from 2006 on)...

    In general, I would say that nowadays the European teams are very equal, and the NBA factor is no longer of such great importance (if not otherwise) when we look at them as the "teams", not as the "collections of individuals" (who are often media-overhyped "stars"). I still would say:

    1. USA (for its depth)
    2. Argentina, Serbia, Lithuania, Spain, France
    3. Greece, Turkey, Croatia, Italy, Russia, Brazil (?), maybe Slovenia (still has to prove it)
    As for the rest:
    I find Germany very hard to place for its overdependence on super-Dirk
    Australia - it still is in the generation transition (hard to place)
    China - sleeping giant (God knows how long it will sleep)
    Puerto Rico - unpredictable passion (sometimes lack of brains)
    New Zealand - always a black horse ready to surprise others and themselves
    Canada - Nash is no Dirk, Canada is no Germany
    Israel - could potentially join my 3rd placed teams, but not there yet

    That much about this FIBA "ranking philosophy" (I also find Eurobasket undervalued compared to the global games in the ranking system)

    If China is a sleeping giant, then India may be a deep sleeping giant. China has the largest population in the world, but it doesn't mean they have enough players to be good at basketball.

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