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Thread: Vogel a cheater ?

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    Senior Member karim's Avatar
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    Default Vogel a cheater ?

    Hello my iranian and lebanese friends , last night i was watching a video of hameds performance in the asia championship final and i saw a few things that i did not believe until i watched the video time and time again ....go to www.youtube.com and copy paste this in the search box "Hamed Hadadi Ehadadi Against Lebanon" ...each time kamrany cuts into the basket it is true that he is going through our player(omar el turk)but theres always another player recovering on him so there is no point for vogel to go out on him also and leave hadadi open alone for the easy dunk ....bad defence from vogel ? ok how about the offensive rebounds and put backs of haddadi ....i know vogel is a bad defensive player but he could atleast box out.....1 last thing i know everyone will agree on , look when the score was 52-49 before haddadis put back and when the score was 65-59 before aidins put back .......twice vogel was running before these 2 players back on he fast break but went and stood outside insead of going under the basket to protect it since hes the center of the team ...i am sorry guys but it looks like vogel is the losing the game on purpose to me , this is besides the fact that he kept choosing threes and missing on purpose ....i did not want to believe this because i respect vogel for all that he has done for lebanon in the past and the kind of gentleman professional that he seems to be but it looks like Iran payed vogel to lose the game on purpose and before any lebanese(vogel fans) or iranians(basketball fans)attack me , watch the video and see for yourselves...vogels performance was not bad but unexplainable unless ofcourse he was payed money to lose the game on purpose ......

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    Senior Member joesmoove059's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karim
    Hello my iranian and lebanese friends , last night i was watching a video of hameds performance in the asia championship final and i saw a few things that i did not believe until i watched the video time and time again ....go to www.youtube.com and copy paste this in the search box "Hamed Hadadi Ehadadi Against Lebanon" ...each time kamrany cuts into the basket it is true that he is going through our player(omar el turk)but theres always another player recovering on him so there is no point for vogel to go out on him also and leave hadadi open alone for the easy dunk ....bad defence from vogel ? ok how about the offensive rebounds and put backs of haddadi ....i know vogel is a bad defensive player but he could atleast box out.....1 last thing i know everyone will agree on , look when the score was 52-49 before haddadis put back and when the score was 65-59 before aidins put back .......twice vogel was running before these 2 players back on he fast break but went and stood outside insead of going under the basket to protect it since hes the center of the team ...i am sorry guys but it looks like vogel is the losing the game on purpose to me , this is besides the fact that he kept choosing threes and missing on purpose ....i did not want to believe this because i respect vogel for all that he has done for lebanon in the past and the kind of gentleman professional that he seems to be but it looks like Iran payed vogel to lose the game on purpose and before any lebanese(vogel fans) or iranians(basketball fans)attack me , watch the video and see for yourselves...vogels performance was not bad but unexplainable unless ofcourse he was payed money to lose the game on purpose ......
    so is this a case of "game-fixing" we have here?? yeah I also doubted some defensive plays of Vogel, he gives room for haddadi to work.
    ..Impossible is nothing, Just Do It!..
    ..you're bringing the name in front of your jersey, not the one at the back..

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    Another BS post from you, it is usual. but This is the stupidest post I ever seen.

    it is your way not our own. it is not iran's fault if you naturalize a stupid player.
    if we want to cheat, we can naturalize. but we never do it.

    cheating is your way, are u forget 2004 WABA Champs ? i never forget it, NEVER
    Last edited by mohsena2631; 10-15-2008 at 01:31 AM.

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    Senior Member nardy's Avatar
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    Without being disrespectful to the comments of our Lebanese friend, I do honestly feel that the Iran team would not be in any way pay in order to win in basketball. Iran have more important things to spend on than Basketball. Basketball is not even in the top 3 sports in Iran. But I do agree there might be point in suspecting Vogel of "game-fixing" but it would be too difficult to prove. If ever he did, it could have been the work of a gambling syndicate.
    Anyway I might be wrong ..... it is only my opinion.

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    Senior Member spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mohsena2631
    if we want to cheat, we can naturalize. but we never do it.
    this aint the first time you say this bullcrap,naturalising is not cheating,its fiba regulation.and this aint the subject

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsena2631
    cheating is your way, are u forget 2004 WABA Champs ? i never forget it, NEVER
    cheating is your way, are u forget 2002 U18 ASIA CUP? i never forget it, NEVER.

    refresh your memory you and korea ok ???? once again you drift away from the topic....

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    Quote Originally Posted by karim
    Hello my iranian and lebanese friends , last night i was watching a video of hameds performance in the asia championship final and i saw a few things that i did not believe until i watched the video time and time again ....go to www.youtube.com and copy paste this in the search box "Hamed Hadadi Ehadadi Against Lebanon" ...each time kamrany cuts into the basket it is true that he is going through our player(omar el turk)but theres always another player recovering on him so there is no point for vogel to go out on him also and leave hadadi open alone for the easy dunk ....bad defence from vogel ? ok how about the offensive rebounds and put backs of haddadi ....i know vogel is a bad defensive player but he could atleast box out.....1 last thing i know everyone will agree on , look when the score was 52-49 before haddadis put back and when the score was 65-59 before aidins put back .......twice vogel was running before these 2 players back on he fast break but went and stood outside insead of going under the basket to protect it since hes the center of the team ...i am sorry guys but it looks like vogel is the losing the game on purpose to me , this is besides the fact that he kept choosing threes and missing on purpose ....i did not want to believe this because i respect vogel for all that he has done for lebanon in the past and the kind of gentleman professional that he seems to be but it looks like Iran payed vogel to lose the game on purpose and before any lebanese(vogel fans) or iranians(basketball fans)attack me , watch the video and see for yourselves...vogels performance was not bad but unexplainable unless ofcourse he was payed money to lose the game on purpose ......
    WOW this is shocking, i totally saw what u mean after watching the video. Notice how many shots he didnt bother to challenge? and how many times he tried to get out of the way!!!!!! now i totally understand why Fadi why pissed so much from him that day.

    I think we should get a video of Lebanon vs. Iran in the 2nd round when we owned and see the difference not how many pts vogel scored here or there. blocks or rebs but just to see how was defending haddadi, i think this shit will be clearer by then

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    Senior Member Khalid80's Avatar
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    I personally don't believe in conspiracy theories and that's why such a topic is so vague and debatable.
    I think we shouldn't keep referring to the past.
    Iran beat us fair and square.
    It's true that Ali Mahmoud's absence was greatly missed but we should get over it.
    And alot of people said that Hamed played his best game ever against us and was lucky but look at where he is now (playing in the NBA with the Grizzlies).

    I hope we work on forming a great team in the near future and let our players do their job on court and hopefully help us to qualify for the next World Championships.

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    Senior Member nardy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khalid80
    I personally don't believe in conspiracy theories and that's why such a topic is so vague and debatable.
    I think we shouldn't keep referring to the past.
    Iran beat us fair and square.
    It's true that Ali Mahmoud's absence was greatly missed but we should get over it.
    And alot of people said that Hamed played his best game ever against us and was lucky but look at where he is now (playing in the NBA with the Grizzlies).

    I hope we work on forming a great team in the near future and let our players do their job on court and hopefully help us to qualify for the next World Championships.
    well said Khalid. You have many good upcoming young players so the future of Lebanese basketball is in good hands.

    anyway if it would do any good, it seems Vogel might already be through with International Competitions and a new naturalized guy would be soon stepping in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khalid80
    I personally don't believe in conspiracy theories and that's why such a topic is so vague and debatable.
    I think we shouldn't keep referring to the past.
    Iran beat us fair and square.
    It's true that Ali Mahmoud's absence was greatly missed but we should get over it.
    And alot of people said that Hamed played his best game ever against us and was lucky but look at where he is now (playing in the NBA with the Grizzlies).

    I hope we work on forming a great team in the near future and let our players do their job on court and hopefully help us to qualify for the next World Championships.

    nice poetry man haha but lets be real for a second and watch that video.
    I have like a zillion basketball games already and im sure u did too, i had some BIG and even HUGE question marks about vogel's performance after watching this video. im not talking about pts or rebs, just look how many times he doesnt even contest hamed's shots or rebs??

    i forgot where in that video but i think between 3:00 and 4:00 on transition D vogel moves intentioanlly away from the basket instead of goin directly to it to defend or get the reb, he is the center right???

    what im saying here is that he didnt have a bad game or something but some of the things he has done in that game cant be explained in any other way thaan what Karim said. And if u have an explanation to what vogel has done in that game (i mean not contesting hamed shots, the transition defense example that i gave..) i would love to hear a logical explanation to all that crap

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    Quote Originally Posted by spider
    this aint the first time you say this bullcrap,naturalising is not cheating,its fiba regulation.and this aint the subject



    cheating is your way, are u forget 2002 U18 ASIA CUP? i never forget it, NEVER.

    refresh your memory you and korea ok ???? once again you drift away from the topic....
    another BS post !

    naturalizing is absolutely cheating, i am proud of my national team because we never do it. win or lose we always play with our boys.

    [Unnecessary] in 2002, we lost to Korea because they played better. why we chose toughest group in next round ? China and Japan were far better than Qatar and Taiwan.

    match fixing is your way.
    Last edited by rikhardur; 10-15-2008 at 01:26 PM.

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    I'm in no way biased to Iran or Lebanon. After watching the video, I don't think there is reason to doubt Vogel was involved in game-fixing. The transition play you pointed out, he actually tried to cover a guy in the wing knowing that the guy with the ball had somebody on him, and assuming that guy was a guard, I think he had good intentions in mind when he tried to cover the wing.

    The one thing that this video proves however is that age had caught up and deteriorated Vogel's skills and a young upstart in Hamed Ehadadi made it look more obvious

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    Senior Member Khalid80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charbel Sakr
    nice poetry man haha but lets be real for a second and watch that video.
    I have like a zillion basketball games already and im sure u did too, i had some BIG and even HUGE question marks about vogel's performance after watching this video. im not talking about pts or rebs, just look how many times he doesnt even contest hamed's shots or rebs??

    i forgot where in that video but i think between 3:00 and 4:00 on transition D vogel moves intentioanlly away from the basket instead of goin directly to it to defend or get the reb, he is the center right???

    what im saying here is that he didnt have a bad game or something but some of the things he has done in that game cant be explained in any other way thaan what Karim said. And if u have an explanation to what vogel has done in that game (i mean not contesting hamed shots, the transition defense example that i gave..) i would love to hear a logical explanation to all that crap
    Man, I'm going to be sounding as if I support Iran against Lebanon (which i'm not) but Haddadi played a much better game than Vogel and he basically dominated him.
    Why did Haddadi play better than Vogel? Here is my personal opinion why he did:
    1) Haddadi is a hustler. He was going after every rebound, while Vogel looked like he didn't have it in him.
    2) Haddadi last year was 22 years old while Vogel is 34. Age plays a big difference in this regard (physical fitness, stamina, etc).
    3) Lebanon's game in the semifinal (one day before the final against Iran) was against Korea and it was very intense and physically tiring since the game went down to the wire till the last second (Lebanon won 76-74).
    4) U guys have to remember that we abuse Vogel. We don't give the guy a chance to rest and expect him to play for 40 minutes every game throughout the whole tournament. Defiinitely this is going to affect him sooner or later and it unfortunately showed in the final.

    I do agree that Vogel in some situations looked like he was preferring to move away from Haddadi and not face him. In the video Haddadi was going up for a dunk and instead of Vogel trying to block or foul him he moved away. The case ur talking about is located at 3:40 when Iran is going on a fast break and instead of Vogel going towards the basket he seemed to be going to defend player no. 10 on the Iranian team. I don't know why he chose to do so but I don't think that he cheated or pretended not to give it all he got.

    U guys have to remember that if it wasn't for Vogel, imo Lebanon wouldn't have qualified to the World Championships in 2002 or 2006.
    Vogel scored the winning basket against France in the 2006 World Chmampionships and he has done alot for Lebanese basketball.
    I don't think he deserves to be treated in this way.
    Unfortunately here in Lebanon when a team is winning we support it and are say it's the best. But one loss like in the Asian Championship Final and we start blaming the players or coach cuz we don't accept losing (Even though I do believe that the main reason why we lost the final against Iran, other than they simply outplayed us is because we were missing a key player by the name of Ali Mahmoud)

    Last but not least, i'm with the decision that Vogel should retire from our NT cuz his prime days are over but at least show the guy some respect.

    Peace

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    Senior Member spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mohsena2631
    another BS post !

    naturalizing is absolutely cheating, i am proud of my national team because we never do it. win or lose we always play with our boys.
    go learn the fiba rules jerk, when they say it's illegal we don't naturalize anymore, we beat you in jones cup without vogel and brian so i challenge our federation not to naturalise we can beat you anytime.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsena2631
    [Unnecessary] in 2002, we lost to Korea because they played better. why we chose toughest group in next round ? China and Japan were far better than Qatar and Taiwan.

    match fixing is your way.
    [Unnecessary] you beat us that time by the referees cheating,they dissalowed 2 buckets for us and many non calls and korea was supposed to beat you by 6 in the last day ! not because they were better and you were bad, you were bad to begin with they were hammering you and they lead 25 pts at one point then they start to give you the balls so the score was +4 to korea and we lost,we had beaten korea before and they gave you the game you agreed on it with korea you cheaters.
    Last edited by rikhardur; 10-15-2008 at 01:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spider
    go learn the fiba rules jerk, when they say it's illegal we don't naturalize anymore, we beat you in jones cup without vogel and brian so i challenge our federation not to naturalise we can beat you anytime.


    [Unnecessary] you beat us that time by the referees cheating,they dissalowed 2 buckets for us and many non calls and korea was supposed to beat you by 6 in the last day ! not because they were better and you were bad, you were bad to begin with they were hammering you and they lead 25 pts at one point then they start to give you the balls so the score was +4 to korea and we lost,we had beaten korea before and they gave you the game you agreed on it with korea you cheaters.
    I think all the fans of the asia NT did not naturalize players did not want to see there are naturalized players in other asia NT.

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    Senior Member karim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thadzonline
    I'm in no way biased to Iran or Lebanon. After watching the video, I don't think there is reason to doubt Vogel was involved in game-fixing. The transition play you pointed out, he actually tried to cover a guy in the wing knowing that the guy with the ball had somebody on him, and assuming that guy was a guard, I think he had good intentions in mind when he tried to cover the wing.

    The one thing that this video proves however is that age had caught up and deteriorated Vogel's skills and a young upstart in Hamed Ehadadi made it look more obvious
    no man i think vogel is smart enough to know that Iran is not a smart enough team to kick out for a three during a fast break i dt think it would even occur to them to pass to the outside with the basket directly in their face but in their case they shouldnt because they are not that good of a 3pt shooting team in the 1st place they keep shooting and catching offensive rebounds they are pretty consistent with their 3pt shooting(around25-30%) so to go on with the fast break would be much better for them ....i also missed out when vogel went outside with the score 21-19 so thats 3 posessions with the same mistake(vogel running outside even though the center should be under the basket) ...........when vogel went out on mahdys penetrations on 2 occasions , i saw one where abdelnour had already recovered on him and the other where brian beshara did so all vogel had to do was to stay on haddadi ....im sorry i just cant believe vogel is that bad of a player ...it looks too fishy to me

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    Senior Member nardy's Avatar
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    I do not want to get into an argument but I would just like to share my thoughts.

    I do understand the complaints regarding Naturalized Players but I think it is a way to balance the field and give a semblance of chance to teams who are lacking in height versus countries who are gifted with height. Like us in the Philippines, genetically a full-blooded Filipino is naturally lacking in height to be honest. And a lot of countries actually are in the same predicament. Actually back in the 1960's and 1970's there was a World Championship for players under 6 feet but said tournament did not last long for lack of sponsors. Also what do we do to countries like the US and Australia, they are countries of migrants. If you look at it almost all of the ancestry of their citizenry are originally Naturalized Citizens.

    But one has to remember basketball is a team sport and there are 5 players in the court. A single player even though how good he is can only do so much. Even the Greatest Basketball player, Michael Jordan learned that he could not do it alone and when he started passing that was the time the Chicago Bulls started winning championships. Another thing even if one team has a naturalized player, all the other teams have an opportunity to scout him and develop ways to contain him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karim
    no man i think vogel is smart enough to know that Iran is not a smart enough team to kick out for a three during a fast break i dt think it would even occur to them to pass to the outside with the basket directly in their face but in their case they shouldnt because they are not that good of a 3pt shooting team in the 1st place they keep shooting and catching offensive rebounds they are pretty consistent with their 3pt shooting(around25-30%) so to go on with the fast break would be much better for them ....i also missed out when vogel went outside with the score 21-19 so thats 3 posessions with the same mistake(vogel running outside even though the center should be under the basket) ...........when vogel went out on mahdys penetrations on 2 occasions , i saw one where abdelnour had already recovered on him and the other where brian beshara did so all vogel had to do was to stay on haddadi ....im sorry i just cant believe vogel is that bad of a player ...it looks too fishy to me
    I respect your opinion. I just don't think the video is conclusive. I feel sad your team lost to Iran, but I also think Iran deserves some respect. After all, it's a game. Let's be true gentlemen in the spirit of true sportsmanship

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    Senior Member karim's Avatar
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    hey mohsena can u plz tell me the difference between the Iran NT of 2003-2005 and the one of last year ...a few years ago Iran used to always be consistent and come in 5th or 6th behind teams like japan,korea,qatar and definitely lebanon ....what changed last year ? im curious to know because i looked at the roster the players stayed the same including 3 players which didnt play last year and ur coach keeps saying their from the best ...its kind of weird Iran always comes in 5th or 6th but when its key players got injured , they came in 1st ?(2nd if china was playing) so what are the differences beween the team of 2005 which lost to qatar by 22 and to korea by 12 in the semi final clinching game and even to japan on 5th-6th position game and the one of last year ? and i saw haddadi on the 2005 roster but did he used to play back than ? and was he good a the age of 20 ?

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    Senior Member daniab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karim
    hey mohsena can u plz tell me the difference between the Iran NT of 2003-2005 and the one of last year ...a few years ago Iran used to always be consistent and come in 5th or 6th behind teams like japan,korea,qatar and definitely lebanon ....what changed last year ? im curious to know because i looked at the roster the players stayed the same including 3 players which didnt play last year and ur coach keeps saying their from the best ...its kind of weird Iran always comes in 5th or 6th but when its key players got injured , they came in 1st ?(2nd if china was playing) so what are the differences beween the team of 2005 which lost to qatar by 22 and to korea by 12 in the semi final clinching game and even to japan on 5th-6th position game and the one of last year ? and i saw haddadi on the 2005 roster but did he used to play back than ? and was he good a the age of 20 ?
    karim,i respect what did u say or at least what ur trying to say...iran won and thats it..lets go ahead...2009 is close to us and we must take our revenge (the basketball one)...iran is working in the right way...in 2003-2005 haddadi was young,,,now hes senior and hes doing great..he was the key for the win against leb in the finals and the coach havent had any kind of solutions....iran is not unbeatable and they are not better than us ...thats for me..we have talents..we have shooters..we have a basic..we just need a good coach with preparation...at least 1 or 2 months specific for the NT...with some tall players ...and thats it..u will see by then that the win is in our pocket...vogel is not a cheater..i doubt..the fact is that vogel disapoint us and he didnt do what he must do as a naturalized player...and concerning mohsen i dont know why he keep insisting on the same point..naturalizing is cheating while its a right given by the Fiba...cheating is naturalizing many players and giving them the local passport...not naturalizing one player...usually the country who use this naturalizing systeam have a prob on 1 pos...this is the case of leb...if we took the case of jordan...they naturalized a player and they didnt make any impact out there why ? bcz they dont have players to win as lebanon...we have a great team but we lack a center..we naturalized a center and what happened ? we made the WC 2 times !!!!!! this is the difference !!

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    Senior Member karim's Avatar
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    hmm yes daniab ...but im not trying to make a point here , just asking mohsena a few curiousity questions since he knows the best abt his NT ...what changed between the Iran NT of 2005 and 2006 since in 2006 it was their 1st time in the top 4 ...is it just the development of haddadi and the arrival of the new coach toroman or r there any additional players(even though the roster looks the same between 2005 and 2007)...and how was haddadi,s performance in asian championship 2005 ? hopefully mohsena will answer me by 2morrow... :>

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