Future Big Men Of Philippine Basketball

[IshmaelM]

This is an interesting article about Draymond-type players: https://sports.yahoo.com/the-draymon...140009989.html

And here's an interesting excerpt:



However, there is also this quote:



We have 6'6"-6'8' bigs, but how can we solve this conundrum? How can we make Draymond-type bigs happen in the Philippines? As the quotes go, undersized bigs can compensate for their lack of height through strength and IQ, but there is also the fact that some bigs who are too used to getting close to the basket. Exacerbating this problem is there is a dearth of high-IQ bigs here in the Philippine setting, especially defensively.

IshmaelM pointed out that there is still need of traditional bigs in the FIBA setting. JAMSKIE raised the point of lineups with undersized players at the 4 and 5-spot not being that successful in the Asian level. Both are valid points, especially given that the teams that won the past few FIBA Asia Championships were good size-wise, Iran and China had Haddadi and Zhou respectively. The undersized big has to be talented enough to beat the bigger Asian centers. And even in GSW's case, the teams they beat didn't have great centers that could exploit Draymond.

Maybe this experiment should be tried and tested in the PBA first. Just try to mimic the NBA's small-ball style. The key here should be that the 6'6"-6'8" bigs desired are versatile players. Strong for the 5, and versatile enough to be a tweener forward. This becomes the setup hopefully, so that they can (sort of) seamlessly transition to 4 next to Kai/Kouame/Edu in international competitions.

They can do this if they take away the height limit for the Commissioner's Cup. With bigger centers, June Mar cannot dominate anymore in the paint. The local bigs will need to learn how to play with a more dominant big, play in the perimeter, guard the perimeter at times. Limiting the import's height so June Mar, Greg and Japeth can still match up is short sighted. Internationally, there is no height limit.

[IshmaelM]

Japeth's always been best as a weak side defender, even with Ginebra. He almost always had a good post defender next to him, whether at the 4 or 5 spot.

Man, hopefully we can still produce good mobile weakside defenders at the big positions.

But we never saw Japeth even attempt to gain weight to get more muscle to play down low. He is our most explosive big. Who knows he could have carried over some explosiveness even with added muscles. Well he wouldn't be able to jump as high. But with his wingspan he doesn't really need to. And he would be probably be able to still dunk the ball. Well that is the past. He has lost some athleticism now. But he is still the closest thing we have to a modern big. Able to defend the post, able to switch in the perimeter. Maybe just need to use some gulang moves in defending the post.

[IPC]

They can do this if they take away the height limit for the Commissioner's Cup. With bigger centers, June Mar cannot dominate anymore in the paint. The local bigs will need to learn how to play with a more dominant big, play in the perimeter, guard the perimeter at times. Limiting the import's height so June Mar, Greg and Japeth can still match up is short sighted. Internationally, there is no height limit.

Take away height limit, period, make the import conference longer, and allow at least another good-sized import.

Good thing we have teams competing in the EASL, where they can hire two imports of any size. Hopefully, the PBA gives its blessing to allow them to compete there.

As for June Mar dominating, I think he can still dominate offensively, even to a lesser extent. It will also train him to be less reliant on the post. As for Japeth and Greg, they are more of defensive bigs, and they're not the game-changer June Mar is.

[JAMSKIE]

They can do this if they take away the height limit for the Commissioner's Cup. With bigger centers, June Mar cannot dominate anymore in the paint. The local bigs will need to learn how to play with a more dominant big, play in the perimeter, guard the perimeter at times. Limiting the import's height so June Mar, Greg and Japeth can still match up is short sighted. Internationally, there is no height limit.

which is exactly what SMC doesn't want to happen becoz having an unlimitted height on imports would prevent them from exploiting to the hilt having Junmar, Tautuaa, Greg & Japeth in their side. Imagine if teams like Phoenix, TNT, NLEX Meralco & Alaska will have 6-foot-11 to 7-foot centers each. If San Miguel gets a 6-11 or 7-foot center, hindi na nila mayu utilize masyado si Junmar becoz he has to share minutes with the import at the 5 spot.Of course we all know how much influence SMC has in the PBA. Fact is, when we talk of the PBA, parang its automatic na that SMC is a huge part of the equation. We could only sense that the majority of non-SMC teams in the PBA want this unlimitted height on imports set up in the Commisioner's Cup pero wala silang magawa becoz of the huge influence SMC has on the PBA.

I think most of us here wud agree that having 6-foot-11 to 7-foot & above imports in the PBA would be beneficial to Philippine basketball. But we could sense some people prevent this from happening becoz of their selfish & ulterior motive.

[JAMSKIE]

Speaking of "4-out" set up with not so tall but highly mobile & flexible center (standing just 6-foot-8 to 6-foot-9), how much successful teams in Asia using such set-up?

Among teams in Asia I think Korea is the prime exhibit of such set-up with Cardo Ratliffe (who's around 6-foot-9) at center & 6-foot-7 Lee Seung-Hyun as four (Lee is in fact your perfect stretch-four). Of course we all know the qualities of Korean wingmen & guards. They have great 3-pt. shooting, quickness, mobility & crisp passing (the best in Asian basketball). But how much successful Korean basketball is in the last 10 years or so? The only accolade they could boast of is the 2014 Asian Games basketball gold medal (well maybe it helped them that they were the host). Korea couldn't beat a Hamed Hadadi-led Iran in the 2018 Asian Games basketball semis.

While most of us here expect Japan (using the 4-out set-up), with Rui Hachimura & Yuta Watanabe in tow, as a strong contender in the top 4 Asia-Oceania basketball at present & in the future, we have to take note that Watanabe & Hachimura are in the different level. They're not in the NBA for nothing. I mean, the other Asian "fours" and small forwards are not as skilled & athletic as Watanabe & Hachimura.

We can't say na "kung kaya ng Japan maging successful with the "4-out" set-up even with a not so tall center, eh kaya rin natin yan". We would be halucinating if we subscribe to that notion.

[thatweirdguy]

which is exactly what SMC doesn't want to happen becoz having an unlimitted height on imports would prevent them from exploiting to the hilt having Junmar, Tautuaa, Greg & Japeth in their side. Imagine if teams like Phoenix, TNT, NLEX Meralco & Alaska will have 6-foot-11 to 7-foot centers each. If San Miguel gets a 6-11 or 7-foot center, hindi na nila mayu utilize masyado si Junmar becoz he has to share minutes with the import at the 5 spot.Of course we all know how much influence SMC has in the PBA. Fact is, when we talk of the PBA, parang its automatic na that SMC is a huge part of the equation. We could only sense that the majority of non-SMC teams in the PBA want this unlimitted height on imports set up in the Commisioner's Cup pero wala silang magawa becoz of the huge influence SMC has on the PBA.

I think most of us here wud agree that having 6-foot-11 to 7-foot & above imports in the PBA would be beneficial to Philippine basketball. But we could sense some people prevent this from happening becoz of their selfish & ulterior motive.

On point. Why would SMC agree to this when this would take away their advantages? You've seen how San Miguel struggled without their huge advantage inside. Even Ginebra tends ro rely on their bigmen. With good sized imports even if they're 3rd rates would elevate teams like Phoenix, BW etc ( not the obvious farm teams) and make every game competitive. It doesn't make sense for SMC teams to go with this.

Same reason why I am against the ban on foreigners in the NCAA. It lowers the level of competition and weakens the smaller schools. How are they going to compete with San Beda and Letran now that they're hoarding all the local recruits?

[thatweirdguy]

Speaking of "4-out" set up with not so tall but highly mobile & flexible center (standing just 6-foot-8 to 6-foot-9), how much successful teams in Asia using such set-up?

Among teams in Asia I think Korea is the prime exhibit of such set-up with Cardo Ratliffe (who's around 6-foot-9) at center & 6-foot-7 Lee Seung-Hyun as four (Lee is in fact your perfect stretch-four). Of course we all know the qualities of Korean wingmen & guards. They have great 3-pt. shooting, quickness, mobility & crisp passing (the best in Asian basketball). But how much successful Korean basketball is in the last 10 years or so? The only accolade they could boast of is the 2014 Asian Games basketball gold medal (well maybe it helped them that they were the host). Korea couldn't beat a Hamed Hadadi-led Iran in the 2018 Asian Games basketball semis.

While most of us here expect Japan (using the 4-out set-up), with Rui Hachimura & Yuta Watanabe in tow, as a strong contender in the top 4 Asia-Oceania basketball at present & in the future, we have to take note that Watanabe & Hachimura are in the different level. They're not in the NBA for nothing. I mean, the other Asian "fours" and small forwards are not as skilled & athletic as Watanabe & Hachimura.

We can't say na "kung kaya ng Japan maging successful with the "4-out" set-up even with a not so tall center, eh kaya rin natin yan". We would be halucinating if we subscribe to that notion.

Our current not so tall centers are in the Almazan, Erram mold. They're not really very mobile, aren't good post defender either doesn't offer and advantage inside and streaky shooters. And you can't play them as 4s. Hopefully Carino, Go, Balti pans out better than them.

Is Kobe better utilized as an undersized 4 or 3?

[JAMSKIE]

One aspect in offense that our future centers like Kai, AJ Edu, Geo Chiu, Kobe Demisana, & other youthful bigs in the pipeline must polish is the medium range jump shot. I think masyado na tayong obsessed sa notion ng "stretch big" or centers with decent 3-point shooting that we seem to overlook the significance of the medium range game for big men. I think for a big man, having a decent medium range jumper is as important & effective as having a decent 3 point shooting. I honestly feel Junmar wud be more effective in the FIBA game with a more polished 15 to 17 feet jump shot. Junmar has the touch from mid-range, but he lacks the reps to be able to consistently hit it in the FIBA game. That's becoz he doesn't take as much mid-range jumpers in the PBA as he should. Eh bakit ka nga naman titira pa from mid-range kung kayang kaya mo namang mangalabaw sa ilalim against a smaller & "softer"?

Marcus Douthit was effective taking & hitting 15-foot jumpers during his stint with Gilas-1under coach Rajko Toroman. Marcus was very good at spotting the gaps of the opposing team's zone defense & take the shot from there. Yung mga baseline & top of the key mid-range jumpers ni Douthit were so effective even if 3-pt. shooting was non-existent in Douthit's game.

Wang Zhizhi was also effective with his medium range jumpers which expanded his offensive game. Then later in his career, Wang developed a decent 3 point shot. Japeth Aguilar's medium range jumpers are also effective & actually has become Japeth's main offensive weapon in the PBA. Di na talaga kailangan ni Japeth ng 3-pt. shooting to be effective offensively in the PBA.

Guys like Alvin Patrimonio, Bong Hawkins, Dennis Espino, Jun Limpot, Jerry Codinera, Benjie Paras had pretty decent mid-range shots.

So I think, guys like Kai, Edu, Chiu & other young bigs/centers must really put special attention in polishing their medium range game.

Even someone like Kobe Paras if he is being envisioned to play as a "four" would be more effective offensively if he develops decent medium range jumpers.

[JAMSKIE]

Our current not so tall centers are in the Almazan, Erram mold. They're not really very mobile, aren't good post defender either doesn't offer and advantage inside and streaky shooters. And you can't play them as 4s. Hopefully Carino, Go, Balti pans out better than them.

Is Kobe better utilized as an undersized 4 or 3?

The Errams & Almazans would easily be bullied by the Hadadis, Wang Zhizhis, Yi Jian Lians, Ahmad Al Dwairis in the shaded lane. Its like a malnurished grade 7 high school kid getting beat up & bullied by a grade-12 high school varsity basketball player.

About Kobe, I think he's better off playing the four. He doesn't have the qualities of a modern day small forward. I think guys like Oftana & Javi Gomez-De Liano have better chances than Kobe playing the 3 spot

[IPC]

Speaking of "4-out" set up with not so tall but highly mobile & flexible center (standing just 6-foot-8 to 6-foot-9), how much successful teams in Asia using such set-up?

Among teams in Asia I think Korea is the prime exhibit of such set-up with Cardo Ratliffe (who's around 6-foot-9) at center & 6-foot-7 Lee Seung-Hyun as four (Lee is in fact your perfect stretch-four). Of course we all know the qualities of Korean wingmen & guards. They have great 3-pt. shooting, quickness, mobility & crisp passing (the best in Asian basketball). But how much successful Korean basketball is in the last 10 years or so? The only accolade they could boast of is the 2014 Asian Games basketball gold medal (well maybe it helped them that they were the host). Korea couldn't beat a Hamed Hadadi-led Iran in the 2018 Asian Games basketball semis.

While most of us here expect Japan (using the 4-out set-up), with Rui Hachimura & Yuta Watanabe in tow, as a strong contender in the top 4 Asia-Oceania basketball at present & in the future, we have to take note that Watanabe & Hachimura are in the different level. They're not in the NBA for nothing. I mean, the other Asian "fours" and small forwards are not as skilled & athletic as Watanabe & Hachimura.

We can't say na "kung kaya ng Japan maging successful with the "4-out" set-up even with a not so tall center, eh kaya rin natin yan". We would be halucinating if we subscribe to that notion.

Our current not so tall centers are in the Almazan, Erram mold. They're not really very mobile, aren't good post defender either doesn't offer and advantage inside and streaky shooters. And you can't play them as 4s. Hopefully Carino, Go, Balti pans out better than them.

Is Kobe better utilized as an undersized 4 or 3?

I think we'd be better off playing more like SoKor, especially in the youth levels. The system should make it easier for our bigs to move to the forward spots. However, to beat Iran and China, our man at the 5 has to be better than theirs, or we have to have a better team. Kaya ng Japan because they'll have the talent to pull it off in Rui and Yuta.

In our case, hopefully we will have the likes of Go, Baltazar, Cariño, Tamayo, Quiambao, Demisana, Salvoro, and Kyle Ong turned into modern 4-men. Hope Tab can succeed in turning Baltazar and Tamayo into combo forwards and realize their potential as wings, if there is. Hope at least some of them can be talented enough, either as combo forwards or small ball bigs. Success depends not only on their versatility, but their talent and ability.

Right now, Kobe's an undersized 4. Hopefully he can keep working on his skills.

[IPC]

which is exactly what SMC doesn't want to happen becoz having an unlimitted height on imports would prevent them from exploiting to the hilt having Junmar, Tautuaa, Greg & Japeth in their side. Imagine if teams like Phoenix, TNT, NLEX Meralco & Alaska will have 6-foot-11 to 7-foot centers each. If San Miguel gets a 6-11 or 7-foot center, hindi na nila mayu utilize masyado si Junmar becoz he has to share minutes with the import at the 5 spot.Of course we all know how much influence SMC has in the PBA. Fact is, when we talk of the PBA, parang its automatic na that SMC is a huge part of the equation. We could only sense that the majority of non-SMC teams in the PBA want this unlimitted height on imports set up in the Commisioner's Cup pero wala silang magawa becoz of the huge influence SMC has on the PBA.

I think most of us here wud agree that having 6-foot-11 to 7-foot & above imports in the PBA would be beneficial to Philippine basketball. But we could sense some people prevent this from happening becoz of their selfish & ulterior motive.

With regards to Japeth and Mo, I think SMC would approve of imports of unlimited height. In my opinion, they would be a bigger mismatch at the 4-spot in the PBA, especially offensively. Greg naman, he's not as dominant offensively as June Mar is, even with smaller defenders. I consider him more of a defensive big. I think it's actually June Mar they want to keep dominant.

[magic_chiongson]

i like what the pba did sometime ago, not sure if it was during the centennial team's time: 2 imports with a max total height. say set it at 13ft, you can have a 7ft & 6 ft imports, or 2 6'6" imports or any other combination. would fill almost every team's need and put parity in the league. but i guess that will never happen while SMB controls the league.

[TheRodster21]

I kind of said this a while back but I see Kobe as our Charles Barkley, undersized Uber athletic pf, he’s strong yet can still jump out the gym just lacks consistency with skills but I saw his defense and what he brought to the table beyond the stats with Thailand. You can tell the Thai team never gave him a chance to shine when he was on the floor allowed everyone else on the team to flourish. Even the sencond game Jakrawan ate the local centers Alive they still got blown out because they couldn’t defend anyone else but everyone could guard anybody on the Thai team not named Jakrawan

[Silent Killer]

I kind of said this a while back but I see Kobe as our Charles Barkley, undersized Uber athletic pf, he’s strong yet can still jump out the gym just lacks consistency with skills but I saw his defense and what he brought to the table beyond the stats with Thailand. You can tell the Thai team never gave him a chance to shine when he was on the floor allowed everyone else on the team to flourish. Even the sencond game Jakrawan ate the local centers Alive they still got blown out because they couldn’t defend anyone else but everyone could guard anybody on the Thai team not named Jakrawan

or he can be our gabriel deck

[thatweirdguy]

The Errams & Almazans would easily be bullied by the Hadadis, Wang Zhizhis, Yi Jian Lians, Ahmad Al Dwairis in the shaded lane. Its like a malnurished grade 7 high school kid getting beat up & bullied by a grade-12 high school varsity basketball player.

About Kobe, I think he's better off playing the four. He doesn't have the qualities of a modern day small forward. I think guys like Oftana & Javi Gomez-De Liano have better chances than Kobe playing the 3 spot

Yeah they would be eaten alive by any decent centers or pfs outside the Asean level..

A lot of people are saying that Kobe played out of position against Thailand and that was the reason why he played badly. To me he's an undersized 4. Guys like Javi and Oftana moved more fluidly and with purpose. I feel they just need a little tweak in their game to play the wing more effectively unlike Kobe who needs a of work in his game.

BTW his kuya to me plays like David Semerad.