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Thread: Improving and Declining Teams

  1. #21
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    Not really. You can't compare Jokubaitis to Hazer. You can't compare Hazer even with Brazdeikis. Lithuania has borderline NBA prospect guards as Jokubaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius, Indrusaitis (not to mention EL upside prospects as Marciulionis, D. Giedraitis, Jakucionis, Laurencikas or even Velicka). Who from Turkey can match that?
    Look the mistake you do again and again is this. You put some names and say we have this guy that guy and so. I know them very well. I know what they are capable of I also know what the Turkish side has. I look at the teams their weaknesses and what they can do.

    You have a problem to find a proper guard after Jasikevicius and this wont change with Jokubaitis as well. He is a good guard but has his weaknesses. It doesnt matter if LTU has further guards than Turkey. Turkey has a different style compared to LTU. You cant name guys like Rubstavicius and Brazdeikis for example and call them guards. They are mere finishers nothing else and wont solve your guard problems which are evident.

    Guys like Velicka or Marculionis cant be even mentioned in these discussions. You always mention them but they arent worth at least right now and wont be in the future. Surely you will put Marculionis who will melt down in important games like in Eurobasket because he cant shoot and cant handle crunch times.

    To get to our comparison between Turkish and LTU youth. In youth tournaments Turkey won most of the games against LTU (i think it was like 15 of the 20 last games).

    Lets look at the last tournaments. You lost in the U18 tournament with a good team and with good guys but that Turkish team has more good guys. In your strongest generation you could barely beat one of the weakest Turkish generations in OT but winning or losing doesnt mean much but the guys you can raise to the A-Team and then you should be able to get additional value.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Do you realize that France last year was in the final and they are almost in the final of EB this year? Sure, some luck this season, but they also lack Batum, Embiid, Wembanyama who dropped 34pts last night on Champions League club. Adding few superstars and the best defensive forward in Europe won't hurt that much to treat them declining

    Again, where is Turkey, if France with all their NBA PG prospects declining?
    We dont understand each other. France is successful and will probably remain as such. Decline mean for me they will be worse than now not that they are going to fail in the future.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    Look the mistake you do again and again is this. You put some names and say we have this guy that guy and so. I know them very well. I know what they are capable of I also know what the Turkish side has. I look at the teams their weaknesses and what they can do.

    You have a problem to find a proper guard after Jasikevicius and this wont change with Jokubaitis as well. He is a good guard but has his weaknesses. It doesnt matter if LTU has further guards than Turkey. Turkey has a different style compared to LTU. You cant name guys like Rubstavicius and Brazdeikis for example and call them guards. They are mere finishers nothing else and wont solve your guard problems which are evident.

    Guys like Velicka or Marculionis cant be even mentioned in these discussions. You always mention them but they arent worth at least right now and wont be in the future. Surely you will put Marculionis who will melt down in important games like in Eurobasket because he cant shoot and cant handle crunch times.

    To get to our comparison between Turkish and LTU youth. In youth tournaments Turkey won most of the games against LTU (i think it was like 15 of the 20 last games).

    Lets look at the last tournaments. You lost in the U18 tournament with a good team and with good guys but that Turkish team has more good guys. In your strongest generation you could barely beat one of the weakest Turkish generations in OT but winning or losing doesnt mean much but the guys you can raise to the A-Team and then you should be able to get additional value.
    Yes, I can. Cause Jokubaitis rocking in EL for his age. Literally. He's a Rising Star for 2 seasons. One de facto, second - officially. You are the one who naming some names which are not even evident in EL or even Eurocup. Except Hazer who showed at least a bit of something, but not even comparable with all the clutch shots Jokubaitis made for Barsa. We should quite this specific discussion here, but I only will say that Jasikevicius wasn't even dreaming about Jokubaitis role as 21yo. He was basically warming the bench in NCAA at that time. Jokubaitis may not be as masterful p'n'r player as Saras was (which is yet to see), but he has everything to be star level guard in EL, IMO. There's no "Jokubaitis" in Turkey ATM, no-one really providing in EL. Period.
    LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

    Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
    Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
    Buzelis, Lelevicius
    Murauskas, Sirvydis
    Tubelis, Krivas

  4. #24
    Senior Member Straight forward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    We dont understand each other. France is successful and will probably remain as such. Decline mean for me they will be worse than now not that they are going to fail in the future.
    How can they be worse with No.1 pick being good in 2025 EB? I mean Victor is very very close to be a beast at the very moment.
    LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

    Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
    Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
    Buzelis, Lelevicius
    Murauskas, Sirvydis
    Tubelis, Krivas

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    How can they be worse with No.1 pick being good in 2025 EB? I mean Victor is very very close to be a beast at the very moment.
    I have one problem with Wembanyama. There were like 30 talented bigs over 7'2 or bigger and just 3-4 made a significant career. He is a high risk high reward guy. If his body can handle the NBA he will lead for sure but his unique body is a big problem.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Yes, I can. Cause Jokubaitis rocking in EL for his age. Literally. He's a Rising Star for 2 seasons. One de facto, second - officially. You are the one who naming some names which are not even evident in EL or even Eurocup. Except Hazer who showed at least a bit of something, but not even comparable with all the clutch shots Jokubaitis made for Barsa. We should quite this specific discussion here, but I only will say that Jasikevicius wasn't even dreaming about Jokubaitis role as 21yo. He was basically warming the bench in NCAA at that time. Jokubaitis may not be as masterful p'n'r player as Saras was (which is yet to see), but he has everything to be star level guard in EL, IMO. There's no "Jokubaitis" in Turkey ATM, no-one really providing in EL. Period.
    And Lithuania doesnt have a guard defending guard like Hazer. LTU doesnt possess wings who can create their shots and for others like Korkmaz or Osman. LTU doesnt possess combo forwards who can defend all positions in Europe like Bona or Büyüktuncel. Every team has its weaknesses and strength.

    Your theory is that Jokubaitis will lead this team to success. It can be. Stand now is he failed this time.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Straight forward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    I have one problem with Wembanyama. There were like 30 talented bigs over 7'2 or bigger and just 3-4 made a significant career. He is a high risk high reward guy. If his body can handle the NBA he will lead for sure but his unique body is a big problem.
    I was on it with the same argument. But he might be something else. He's one of those guys who are pretty tough being skinny. He may remain thin and light and yet survive the NBA by all means. High injury level is probable, but I believe in his health more than I believe in Zion Williamson TBH
    LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

    Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
    Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
    Buzelis, Lelevicius
    Murauskas, Sirvydis
    Tubelis, Krivas

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    And Lithuania doesnt have a guard defending guard like Hazer. LTU doesnt possess wings who can create their shots and for others like Korkmaz or Osman. LTU doesnt possess combo forwards who can defend all positions in Europe like Bona or Büyüktuncel. Every team has its weaknesses and strength.
    .
    As for Hazer being great defender, that's the case. But we have great defending guards coming in D. Giedraitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas, Jakucionis. Is Hazer better than Butkevicius? Debatable.

    What? Really? Do you realize that Grigonis is more creative than both Korkmaz, Osman? Look at Grigonis 3.4apg. Korkmaz has more ISO game than Brazdeikis really? In which planet? He's a shooter and soft inside. Bona is not combo forward, he's a Forwar- Center. Not to mention that you don't have anything even close to prospect as Matas Buzelis (but, well, only few teams might have globally, that's not even spot on direction to go with).

    We should continue this either Lithuanian or Turkish section really as we usually do.
    LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

    Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
    Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
    Buzelis, Lelevicius
    Murauskas, Sirvydis
    Tubelis, Krivas

  9. #29
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    As for Hazer being great defender, that's the case. But we have great defending guards coming in D. Giedraitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas, Jakucionis. Is Hazer better than Butkevicius? Debatable.
    OK, touche.

    The difference between Butkevicius and Hazer is (actually there are more) one is born 92 and the other 99. Butkevicius is a good defender but doesnt provide much than making open shots. Hazer is in addition to this one of the best slashers in Europe. There can be a comparison to Butkevicius on the defensive end but not as player generally. He provides more.

    Yes, you have defending guards but the problem in your team is that they are either pure defenders or they cant defend anything. This is the reason why you cant use Sedekerskis or similar guys with Augustas it seems to be the same.

    What? Really? Do you realize that Grigonis is more creative than both Korkmaz, Osman?
    No I dont cause he isnt. Creative means the capability to create for themselves and others. Grigonis cant even dream about the NBA.

    Look at Grigonis 3.4apg.
    This has to do with the role Grigonis was involved. We played with Larkin as the main play maker in 5 of 6 games so decreasing numbers are expectable.

    Korkmaz has more ISO game than Brazdeikis really?
    Brazdeikis is in terms of quality far behind Korkmaz.

    He's a shooter and soft inside.
    He is a shooter in the NBA but an all around scorer in Europe. As I told you before in Europe he would have played for Efes or Real Madrid and would be one of the leading scorers and sometimes i wished he would return.

    Not to mention that you don't have anything even close to prospect as Matas Buzelis (but, well, only few teams might have globally, that's not even spot on direction to go with).
    hahahaha let him come let him play and then we can talk about it. Its way too early. The guy you should be talking about implementing is Murauskas. He is the guy who can help you a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by christodoulou76 View Post
    Which national teams are likely to do better than they did at this Eurobasket in Latvia in 2025? Which teams are likely to do worse? Those of you who are more knowledgeable than me about young prospects in Europe and the general state of national federations and leagues should be able to answer this. I am very curious to hear your answers.

    for what it's worth (probably not much) here are the final standings of the last few u20 tournaments

    u20 eurobasket 2022
    1. ESP
    2. LTU
    3. MNE
    4. ISR
    5. TUR
    6. CRO

    u20 eurobasket 2019
    1. ISR
    2. ESP
    3. GER
    4. FRA
    5. LTU
    6. TUR

    u20 eurobasket 2018
    1. ISR
    2. CRO
    3. GER
    4. FRA
    5. TUR
    6. SRB
    Germany has also won the last two Albert Schweitzer tournaments (very similar competition to u18 world championship)

    Since everybody is just ranting/rambling about their team I will do my part.

    BIGMEN: Germany should be golden in the big man department. I say should, because we should have been in this tournament too, but in the end we are playing with Wolfahrt-Bottermann (WoBo)...

    I think the only changes we will see in this department from the current roster until the olympics (if we qualify again) will be replacing WoBo with Maxi Kleber, Sengfelder with Mo. Wagner (both guys need minutes of course, but some injury will pop up for sure). If Maxi quits permanently because of his poor injury history, Oscar Da Silva is the perfect replacement.

    I have lost hope on Isaiah Hartenstein playing, but he would be the perfect replacement if Voigtmann is injured instead. Very young and promising: Ariel Hukporti, who was Franz's teammate in the under18 and is playing in Australia to improve his draft stock. When I saw the list of nominated guys in the German extended roster I was kind bummed not to see his name already this summer. He is going to be the starting center of the Australian champions this year probably, so I am eager to see how he develops.

    In five years my best case scenario bigs roster is: Hartenstein,Hukporti,Mo.Wagner,Da Silva + some surprise development I cannot predict now

    WINGS: Franz is already established as the new Dirk, LOL. Jokes aside, I think in this olympic cycle again no drastic change, it's basically Giffey (if he does not quit with a title in his hometown this year :P ) fighting to keep his spot against now injured Isaac Bonga and Paul Zipser. For the future after Paris 2024, we also have Olinde who has already a lot of Euroleague season under great coaches under his belt. I like him a lot but he is a bit caught in between being too light for the 4 position and too weak of a ball handler for the wing, amazing defender though. The ALBA berlin line-ups with him and Da Silva together on the court were murdering on defense this year. We should recreate that in the NT.

    Much younger, there is Luc Van Slooten, who at 14 played with the under 16 and looked like the German Luka Doncic (a 205 cm playmaker with good handles and shot) and was higher regarded than Franz Wagner until 3 years ago (In the Albert Schweitzer 2018 which we won he played a lot more than Franz despite being younger). Sadly German coaches seem to have screwed him into thinking he is a big-man and he did not train ball-handling anymore... He plays big minutes for the Bundesliga club owned by Dennis Schröder though (which has the merit of launching German young players on the big stage), so not all hope is lost he becomes a go-to-guy. The other super-interesting prospect is now 15 years old, Declan Duru: he plays for Real Madrid's juniors and looks like a crack. The "problem" is that he might still grow a lot, and become too tall for a wing, which is what he plays now. I say problem in quotes because he might actually then become kind of a German baby-Giannis if he keeps growing but preserves his ball-handling and coordination (his physique is already impressive).

    GUARDS: The rotation Dennis, Maodo, Obst, Justus Hollatz should stay the same for the next 3-4 years. Nick Weiler-Babb maybe will really also stay for more years, and not only to get his very important German passport (I love him as a player and he sounds like a great teammate). After that, the most ready folks are the guys from ALBA as usual, Jonas Mattiseck and Malte Delow, who also have already played a bunch of Euroleague at 21/22 years of age and were part of great under20/under18 teams before covid19, which christodoulou76 listed in the quoted post. As I mentioned in another thread when asked about future German guards, I still like Kostja Mushidi as a dark-horse to make a splash, but he is 24 "already" and attitude problems supposedly. I have great expectations for Benjamin Schröder who is playing at Oklahoma university this year after dominating in German youth leagues.

    The two best super-young prospects for the long future are instead Isaac's younger brother Joshua Bonga (who played at Barcelona and Zalgiris youth already in the last years) as a playmaker and Jonathan Kalu as a shooting guard, which will be in Bayern's professional roster this year already at 17 years.

    All in all, I think we are going to be very very decent for a very long time. : )

    EDIT: corrected typos and brain farts.

  11. #31

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    from what everyone has said and from results in u20 tournaments, it seems

    Improving: GER, LTU, TUR, ESP, ISR
    Declining: CRO, GRE, POL, CZE

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridirkulous View Post
    Much younger, there is Luc Van Slooten, who at 14 played with the under 16 and looked like the German Luka Doncic (a 205 cm playmaker with good handles and shot) and was higher regarded than Franz Wagner until 3 years ago (In the Albert Schweitzer 2018 which we won he played a lot more than Franz despite being younger). Sadly German coaches seem to have screwed him into thinking he is a big-man and he did not train ball-handling anymore... He plays big minutes for the Bundesliga club owned by Dennis Schröder though (which has the merit of launching German young players on the big stage), so not all hope is lost he becomes a go-to-guy. The other super-interesting prospect is now 15 years old, Declan Duru: he plays for Real Madrid's juniors and looks like a crack. The "problem" is that he might still grow a lot, and become too tall for a wing, which is what he plays now. I say problem in quotes because he might actually then become kind of a German baby-Giannis if he keeps growing but preserves his ball-handling and coordination (his physique is already impressive).
    I didn't know Braunschweig was owned by Schroeder, good to know and pay attention to them.

    I thought that Ulm was kind of special in this way, since I remember they had some nice performing youngsters in the rotation when Olimpija played them. Not neccesarily superstar material, but those are overated compared to what decently talented players mean for the league, national team and other players.

    I was paying a lot more attention with the Benzing, Pleiss and Theis generations and even by than the improvement of the (raw) talent at junior cathegories for Germany was substantial and noticable. Right now, I think that no matter Germany is the host of the eurobasket, in case guards keep up with the level of wings and centers, Germany could become one of those classic powerhouses, with deep rosters even with notable absences, such as it's the case right now.
    Of course I can't go without bashing euroleague... that process would be notably faster if euroleague would open up, since longterm being bound to 2 teams at the highest level only, will be detrimental to the game development.


    Regarding France and talent I will just shrug without commenting. They have issues, definately, especialy by some of the more fundamental players traditionaly being cast aside in favour of the athleticism, which is a 20 years old story, but they are ultimately the one country that will never ran out of good guards. Various Albicy's, Okobo's and Cordinier's are good enough for them to battle 80% of eurobasket teams. And those will always be in abundance even if no new Fournier appears (which it will eventualy)


    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    If Slovenia can gather a decent fronline, that's all needed, IMO, cause they have the best guard prospect upside in Europe, I think. Samar, Glas, Ivankovic, Urban Klavzar, Osojnik, Jan Vide. Assuming Doncic stays active for another 10 years, Slovenia is in very comfortable position to fight for top spots.
    Even if my desire for that to be the case, might cloud my judgement a little bit, I think we should be fine. With some luck, even more than just fine
    The dangers here are still lack of role-players, due to big time scorers being in favour all the time and lacking the depth as far as development pool is concerned, kids being labeled as talented or untalented way to soon (that's pretty common issue everywhere, I hear), injuries and hasty career decisions that area lot of times promoted by managers and of course parents.

    However "2017" and Dončič wave is appearing out there. Kids play basketball a lot again, just as it was the case in the 90ies and that's the key. When every 5th kid dreams of being a basketball player, it's hard not to develop some of those eventualy...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    I didn't know Braunschweig was owned by Schroeder, good to know and pay attention to them.

    I thought that Ulm was kind of special in this way, since I remember they had some nice performing youngsters in the rotation when Olimpija played them. Not neccesarily superstar material, but those are overated compared to what decently talented players mean for the league, national team and other players.
    Yes Dennis first invested in his childhood club, then bought it completely. He said he now wants to convince Daniel Theis to play together with him there when they are 35 and too old for the NBA, and win the Bundesliga. I am curious as to how the salary payments will work...

    Ulm has that long-standing reputation, still. But now they are launching foreign talents rather than Germans, like Hayes, and Nunez next year.

    Question on Slovenian talents. How are the big-men? You had a battery of great bigs in Rasho, Smodis, E. Lorbek, Uros Slokar, Brezec. All in the same generation. Where are their kids?

  14. #34
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    For Croatia is very important development of young players of loaded generations of 99.-03., but for the first time most of them are not in hands of Croatian coaches so this is something new and it could be good thing. And it depends who will take over Croatian federation and who will be new coach. And after long time we have top prospects at PG position in Gnjidic and Kučić.

    Good thing lots of players are in Misko development clubs Mega and Studentski center so all of them will have big roles next season

    PG was very critical position last decade. Gnjidić and Kučić are both high level prospects. Gnjidić is like Planinić level prospect, but he has problems with a lack of alpha man mentality. If he can put this togheter he has a chance to be great. Next season in Cedevita for him is the season of truth. Can he play under pressure? Kučić is oposite. He has brains and balls, but is a late bloomer and he is catching up. IF we add Radovčić, Mavra and Kalajžić who are developing as potential good players for 10-15 min this position could become good for us

    SG is critical for us far more than PG. M. Drežnjak is developing into good role player and that is about it. There is kid named Filip Bjelanović 2002 that has hoops and hops, and non of you herd for him because he was sacked from all NT's because to put it short he is desroying him self, but if he somehow decides to dedicate himself to basketball he can become star. But other than Drežnjak who is rolle player prospect, we have no one close to NT. And other prospects like Runjić are more like Drežnjak or just not so promising

    At SF Boris Tišma will have an important role for Studentski and if he finally stays healthy he might prove why he was among the best 02. prospects. Also Duško Vujošević will mentor kids in Studentski center so that can be only plus for Prospects there. Leo Menalo signed with Virtus. is another star-level prospect with soft mentality. I don't expect him to have big role for Virtus in EL. He should choose lover level club, but you never know. I. Perasović will have big role for Cibona, but I am not a big fan of him at pro level. With them Luka Božić who was a good prospect for 96. Croatia will have a monster season for Zadar, but it looks he is player for lover-level clubs. T. Nakić moved to ACB league so we will see. He is good bet to become good player for some roles With maturing or never maturing Hezonja SF position is either star or bust

    At PF only God knows what is with Šamanić. Spurs gave up on him, and then he played like a monster in G league before the injury. Now he is without club, but it's not too late for him to get back on track. R. Prkačin moved to Girona and if anyone can develop a young player it's Aito. I don't think he has the tools to become superstar he was promised at age of 16, but he will do OK. Rudan will be one of the most important players for Mega and he should develop into a good player. Also 04. Jelavić moved to Mega and frankly he is our most talented PF. There is Tomislav Buljan who moved to Juventud this season. He has the toughness and is a good prospect too. Not a star, but I believe in this kid, because he is not soft. With this core and 98. born D. Drežnjak who is developing good and should become a potential player for 10-15 min and recoverd D. Šarić who did not become a star, but is good player we should be OK at PF

    At Center Matković already developed into good player and he is sort of what a modern center looks like. If he adds 3PT shoot he is set to be high-level role player. The perfect compliment to old-school Zubac and Žižić type of bigs. With them, Branković is on loan with Mega from Bayern and he should develop good. He is already a borderline NT player. The only problem is that he might be too tall to play basketball as modern bigs are not 220. Then there are Ivišić twins. Tomislav will be starting center for Studentski this season I guess, while more talented Zvonimir is again injured. With these guys and Zubac, Žižić and even Bender who is now center this position is locked with good players for years. Not stars, but good.



    Now, this makes do or go home for Croatia literally. Because these generations really have lots of talents, but there is a huge hole after 03. without too many prospects. There is a hype that Luka Ukić, son of Roko is the new Luka Dončić level prospect, but he is way too young. This could forever shoot down our basketball from the elite because there is a huge decline of young kids picking up a basketball. Key problems are for future first we need to find new leaders of our federation. After we need a new coach. And then we need to find new leaders. Šarić and Hezonja busted and did not prove they can be that, while from this deep list of prospects only 3 of them can really become stars, but there have big question marks. Gnjidić and Menalo have skill set and athletic abilities for star level, but they are soft as hell. While Tišma has skill set and can take over, but first is a bit too passive at times and 2nd he is a bit too unathletic.

    So very uncertain times for Croatia ahead that can lead to the total collapse of once sport that was so big in our country.
    Jordi Bertomeu sucks!

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