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Thread: Turkish NT 2022

  1. #81
    Senior Member slice me nice's Avatar
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    I wouldn't skip any of these Saybir, Osmani and Kabaca. Each of them is valuable. Osmani can cover C for meaningful time that is a big bonus. Saybir has high basketball feeling, puts the ball on floor, good finisher, I can't dismiss him. Kabaca can shoot.

    I wouldn't use my 12th spot for Özdemiroğlu if Hazer performs very well in next preparation games aswell.

    Larkin - Hazer - Tuncer
    Korkmaz - Mahmutoğlu
    Osman - Bitim
    Kabaca - Saybir
    Şengün - Şanlı - Osmani

    I would like to see this team playing against better teams in prep period. Performances against Poland or Ukraine don't give much clue. The game against Greece will bring the actual potential of this team to light. Contribution from PF is key.
    Sports is not only considered as a superiority of physical capability. Perception, intelligence and morality assist it as well. The strong with less intelligence and comprehension can not cope with the less strong but with sufficient intelligence and comprehension. I like the sportsman who is intelligent, agile as well as morally upright.

    Mustafa Kemal ATATÜRK

  2. #82
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakz View Post
    I'm not that high on Ercan Osmani. He's a solid PF/C player for a BCL team, not more not less as for now. Considering his age, I also do not see much potential to become good enough to be an EL player.
    .
    He is 24

  3. #83
    Senior Member Nakz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    He is 24
    Exactly, which means he is probably at about 75% of his potential at least. Not everyone is like Sertac and will develop significantly close to their 30s..

  4. #84
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakz View Post
    Exactly, which means he is probably at about 75% of his potential at least. Not everyone is like Sertac and will develop significantly close to their 30s..
    My expectation that he is exactly like Sanli. Their paths are similar until now, but Osmani is bigger talent then Sanli.

    Sanli was always good but never had a chance to show that with poor minutes on the court (If Dunston and Pleiss didn't injured, Sanli would probaly play in some bottom BSL club right now)

    That is big problem od Turkish basketball, we are prone to underestimate good players and they are waiting old age to get true chance. For Osmani is right moment to take bigger role.

    We don't need to agree about his potential(I think he has all what is needed for one modern EL pf), but if this isn't moment then when?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by slice me nice View Post
    I wouldn't skip any of these Saybir, Osmani and Kabaca. Each of them is valuable. Osmani can cover C for meaningful time that is a big bonus. Saybir has high basketball feeling, puts the ball on floor, good finisher, I can't dismiss him. Kabaca can shoot.

    I wouldn't use my 12th spot for Özdemiroğlu if Hazer performs very well in next preparation games aswell.

    Larkin - Hazer - Tuncer
    Korkmaz - Mahmutoğlu
    Osman - Bitim
    Kabaca - Saybir
    Şengün - Şanlı - Osmani

    I would like to see this team playing against better teams in prep period. Performances against Poland or Ukraine don't give much clue. The game against Greece will bring the actual potential of this team to light. Contribution from PF is key.
    Yeah my bad. I totally forgot about Özdemiroglu. You are totally right. Lets take all three to the tournament and skip Özdemiroglu. We hopefully can add Akay and Bona next year to the roster and thats it!

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakz View Post
    Exactly, which means he is probably at about 75% of his potential at least. Not everyone is like Sertac and will develop significantly close to their 30s..
    He has tremendous upside. He had the most stupid injuries of all time and couldnt play a proper season so far. Once he was attacked by some street dogs and broke his hand by securing himself etc. We cant say he will 100% reach this potential but he has everything to be great in Europe.

    Look at those Bandirma bigs. Sengün, Kabaca, Osmani.
    loading... Haltali, Mestoglu adding Hazer this is the half of the Turkish NT.

    Huge thanks to Ahmet Gürgen who freed us from playing with Semih Erden. It would have been the case if there was no Ahmet Gürgen.

  7. #87
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    This hype about Saybir and comparation with Kabaca and Osmani is ridiculous

    1st he is not pf. 202 cm is short for that position. Or someone will claim he is new Hines maybe

    His natural position is SF. But all of the suden someone put him on pf, Why is that? Because he is one of the worst shooters, even Balbay is better. He can't play on position where at least decent shooting is required, isn't it? So let move him to pf, it's safer.. No it's not. Almost every pf nowadays is good shooter from outside(at least spot up)

    So comparing him with Kabaca and Osmani(both natural power forwards and sharp shooters) is like comparing cat and dog.

    With his shooting (not)ability the only position where he can survive is center and then could be decided if Sanli or Sengun should move for him

    On serious note, I realy think that he has some basketball genes and qualities, but it's realy shame that guy who probably plans to live from this sport is such stupid to not improve shooting. Or he is lazy, I don't know. If I am on his place, every day 2-3 hours individual shooting with good personal coach. Until then he isn't serious player, considering he is too short for Center(or even PF), and way too bad shooter for small forward

  8. #88
    Senior Member Nakz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    This hype about Saybir and comparation with Kabaca and Osmani is ridiculous

    1st he is not pf. 202 cm is short for that position. Or someone will claim he is new Hines maybe

    His natural position is SF. But all of the suden someone put him on pf, Why is that? Because he is one of the worst shooters, even Balbay is better. He can't play on position where at least decent shooting is required, isn't it? So let move him to pf, it's safer.. No it's not. Almost every pf nowadays is good shooter from outside(at least spot up)

    So comparing him with Kabaca and Osmani(both natural power forwards and sharp shooters) is like comparing cat and dog.

    With his shooting (not)ability the only position where he can survive is center and then could be decided if Sanli or Sengun should move for him

    On serious note, I realy think that he has some basketball genes and qualities, but it's realy shame that guy who probably plans to live from this sport is such stupid to not improve shooting. Or he is lazy, I don't know. If I am on his place, every day 2-3 hours individual shooting with good personal coach. Until then he isn't serious player, considering he is too short for Center(or even PF), and way too bad shooter for small forward
    We could not see much of Saybir at Efes, but I actually think and hope he will have a breakout season at Bursa this year, just like Bitim did last year. Alimpijevic really picks the correct Turkish players based on his budget. His shooting is actually not that bad (for a PF). People, especially Turks, overvalue height. You can see the youth teams of Turkey are almost always one of the tallest of all teams. He has pretty good athleticism and aggressiveness to make up for his relatively short size.

    I agree Osmani was unlucky the last few seasons, he did however still have a lot of meaningfull minutes at BJK, but not impressed me as a high caliber player. He is pretty quick with his feet for his size, has a decent shot and looks mentally strong. He however lacks the athleticism and post moves, which are crucial at the C role.

  9. #89
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakz View Post
    We could not see much of Saybir at Efes, but I actually think and hope he will have a breakout season at Bursa this year, just like Bitim did last year. Alimpijevic really picks the correct Turkish players based on his budget. His shooting is actually not that bad (for a PF). People, especially Turks, overvalue height. You can see the youth teams of Turkey are almost always one of the tallest of all teams. He has pretty good athleticism and aggressiveness to make up for his relatively short size.

    I agree Osmani was unlucky the last few seasons, he did however still have a lot of meaningfull minutes at BJK, but not impressed me as a high caliber player. He is pretty quick with his feet for his size, has a decent shot and looks mentally strong. He however lacks the athleticism and post moves, which are crucial at the C role.
    As I know he is prediscted to be PF(except in SMN post)

    BTW In your words he is with 24y too old to develope till his max, but Saybir with 23y draw much bigger expectations from your side? is that one year so important or something else?

  10. #90
    Senior Member Nakz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    As I know he is prediscted to be PF(except in SMN post)

    BTW In your words he is with 24y too old to develope till his max, but Saybir with 23y draw much bigger expectations from your side? is that one year so important or something else?
    With Saybir, I think he can develop and already show a lot more, when he gets a significant role at a team. In the UK game for example he really showed he can contribute. For Osmani, I watched a lot of games from him in the last few years, but did not see significant development. He was/is even a backup of Haltali, who is also not that great at BJK. So no, it is not only the age.

  11. #91
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakz View Post
    With Saybir, I think he can develop and already show a lot more, when he gets a significant role at a team. In the UK game for example he really showed he can contribute. For Osmani, I watched a lot of games from him in the last few years, but did not see significant development. He was/is even a backup of Haltali, who is also not that great at BJK. So no, it is not only the age.
    Osmani and Haltali are light years apart, their roles and basketball knowledge couldn't even be compared

    You underestimate him and that's ok, everybody has his own glasses for looking players. I have eye for talents and good players, never missed until now.

    Both, Osmani and Kabaca if they get good support(minutes) from the coaches will be players from whom we can expect great games.

    Saybir is different case, he needs to work on himself because his skilset is very poor for his height. He has character and physics, but in 2 or three year from now he will be eaten by every mediocre same age American, because for euro guys you must have something more then just muscles

  12. #92
    Senior Member slice me nice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    This hype about Saybir and comparation with Kabaca and Osmani is ridiculous

    1st he is not pf. 202 cm is short for that position. Or someone will claim he is new Hines maybe

    His natural position is SF. But all of the suden someone put him on pf, Why is that? Because he is one of the worst shooters, even Balbay is better. He can't play on position where at least decent shooting is required, isn't it? So let move him to pf, it's safer.. No it's not. Almost every pf nowadays is good shooter from outside(at least spot up)

    So comparing him with Kabaca and Osmani(both natural power forwards and sharp shooters) is like comparing cat and dog.

    With his shooting (not)ability the only position where he can survive is center and then could be decided if Sanli or Sengun should move for him

    On serious note, I realy think that he has some basketball genes and qualities, but it's realy shame that guy who probably plans to live from this sport is such stupid to not improve shooting. Or he is lazy, I don't know. If I am on his place, every day 2-3 hours individual shooting with good personal coach. Until then he isn't serious player, considering he is too short for Center(or even PF), and way too bad shooter for small forward
    I don't know how you got that impression but nobody is hyping Saybir. He can be a useful player for limited minutes with his current shape, nothing more. You said he is not a PF which is a claim that is on verge of ignorance and also said he is short for being PF which is pure misconception. Saybir is 203, the average height of Power Forwards in Euroleague is 204,75 cm. You act him like he is 1.95 and totally a undersized guy. His size is ok for this position.

    I agree his shooting is not bright, but believing that Kabaca and Osmani are sharp-shooters are again wrong. Kabaca and Saybir have the same career 3-PT percentage which is exactly 30%. Kabaca a had better shooting season recently, that's another story and currently Kabaca is a better shooter than Saybir since he has improved that aspect of his game remarkably, but again he is far from being called as a sharpshooter. Sharp-shooters are the ones who shoot with 40% or more upon high shot volume. I don't even need to say Osmani has very low 3-PT shot volume to be called as a shooter. He is not a reliable perimeter threat because he rarely uses his shot, instead he posts up and being used as rolling big.

    Judging players by only looking at their shooting ability is the outcome of the primitive basketball understanding. Shoot, shoot, more shoot. I already acknowledge Saybir hasn't improved himself, his shooting percentage remains same. This is indeed a bad sign. But, I would not say to enrich our offensive options at that position. Saybir will give us mobility and transitioning from offense to defense. If he ends up in final roster, he won't see much playing times, but I am sure we will get the maximum from him in limited minutes. Kabaca is still the first option in my book aswell.
    Sports is not only considered as a superiority of physical capability. Perception, intelligence and morality assist it as well. The strong with less intelligence and comprehension can not cope with the less strong but with sufficient intelligence and comprehension. I like the sportsman who is intelligent, agile as well as morally upright.

    Mustafa Kemal ATATÜRK

  13. #93
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slice me nice View Post
    I don't know how you got that impression but nobody is hyping Saybir. He can be a useful player for limited minutes with his current shape, nothing more. You said he is not a PF which is a claim that is on verge of ignorance and also said he is short for being PF which is pure misconception. Saybir is 203, the average height of Power Forwards in Euroleague is 204,75 cm. You act him like he is 1.95 and totally a undersized guy. His size is ok for this position.

    I agree his shooting is not bright, but believing that Kabaca and Osmani are sharp-shooters are again wrong. Kabaca and Saybir have the same career 3-PT percentage which is exactly 30%. Kabaca a had better shooting season recently, that's another story and currently Kabaca is a better shooter than Saybir since he has improved that aspect of his game remarkably, but again he is far from being called as a sharpshooter. Sharp-shooters are the ones who shoot with 40% or more upon high shot volume. I don't even need to say Osmani has very low 3-PT shot volume to be called as a shooter. He is not a reliable perimeter threat because he rarely uses his shot, instead he posts up and being used as rolling big.

    Judging players by only looking at their shooting ability is the outcome of the primitive basketball understanding. Shoot, shoot, more shoot. I already acknowledge Saybir hasn't improved himself, his shooting percentage remains same. This is indeed a bad sign. But, I would not say to enrich our offensive options at that position. Saybir will give us mobility and transitioning from offense to defense. If he ends up in final roster, he won't see much playing times, but I am sure we will get the maximum from him in limited minutes. Kabaca is still the first option in my book aswell.


    Saying Saybir's shooting is not bright is augmentative size of mountain

    I am very good at stats believe me, but what career percentage for 21y guy could tell? nothing
    Im just looking current condition and technics. Sharp shooter doesn't mean just being statistically over 40% and for sure not life time statistics for 21y old boy
    Further more even 40+ doesn't mean someone is sharp shooter. You have Melih over 40%, and Doncic way below, for instance But again Doncic made that stats in U20 age.

    There are many examples of players who improved shooting through career with high current percentage but lower in past seasons. Who cares how they shooted in past years, what is important is current state and what they can give to the team.

    I am thinking that your insisting on physics and muscles is rather primitive then my point of view through shooting. Or Saybir have other qualities maybe? "Saybir will give us mobility and transitioning from offense to defense" That's it? Realy modern basketball understanding But, believe or not, I agree with this and I wrote something similar already, but is that enough for sharing minutes with Kabaca?

    It's realy strange that considering I didn't even bashed a player(except for shooting which is obvious) and wrote some good things about him, you are trying to prove here as he isn't such awful shooter or at least not much worse then Kabaca.

    Question isn't Kabaca(cos he will be in the roster) or Saybir, but Osmani or Saybir. Game against Greece will show 99% who will play on EB.
    Last edited by janketa; 08-16-2022 at 08:48 AM.

  14. #94
    Senior Member okanial's Avatar
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    Kabaca is definetely the guaranteed pick between the 3. He is the youngest and the best shooter.

    Considering we will play Alperen for long stretches we don't want another post up player at 4. Alperen needs space to operate and is good to find open shooters so pairing Alperen and Kabaca should be good.

    Out of the other 2, I can't claim to know which is better. But I'd take whoever has the better defense cause we already have 3 offensive minded bigs in Şengün, Şanlı and Kabaca.

    Or we can always invite Semih Erden for veteran presence

  15. #95
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    We can find reasons to take them in for all three but most of the guys here really underestimate Osmani. Osmani has the most balanced offense - defense game. He lacks prep time with the team and it will take some time but a 213cm guy with fast legs is always money.

    Saybirs body is really a Euroleague body. His post defense was always a problem but it seems he developed there. He is a good transition scorer, can attack close outs smartly and is a good rebounder thats pretty much everything what he he offers. Another point against Saybir is that the other two always played with bigger roles in their teams.

    Kabaca has been in good shape since the Greek coach took over but he always was the most inconsistent guy with big ups and downs. There is always the possibility him to vanish completely. All three have their weaknesses and we cant claim any of them as a full fledged reliable PF candidate right now but in terms of offering the most my ranking is like this

    1. Osmani
    2. Kabaca
    3. Saybir

    but like I said I would take all three of them.

  16. #96
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    This is my wish(Without Melih and Tuncer)

    Larkin-Hazer-Dogus
    Korkmaz-Bitim
    Cedi-Birsen
    Kabaca-Osmani-Saybir
    Sanli-Sengun

    There is place for all three of them but of course that Kabaca and Osmani are better players with more minutes on the court.

    In reality Dogus and Birsen will be out, Melih and Tuncer in

  17. #97
    Senior Member slice me nice's Avatar
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    The point of my post was proving you wrong at your claims about Saybir. Unfortunately you are again a world away from things I corrected you.

    I am very good at stats believe me, but what career percentage for 21y guy could tell? nothing
    Im just looking current condition and technics. Sharp shooter doesn't mean just being statistically over 40% and for sure not life time statistics for 21y old boy
    Further more even 40+ doesn't mean someone is sharp shooter. You have Melih over 40%, and Doncic way below, for instance But again Doncic made that stats in U20 age.
    You can't compare the percentages of guards with spot up forwards' percentages. If you claim Kabaca is a sharp-shooter, you should have very well known that his percentage as a spot-up shooter should be more than 40%. Otherwise, you can't define him as a sharp-shooter, but you can say he is a guy who is improving his shot and already has reliable shot. You even called Osmani as a sharp-shooter who barely averages one three point shot per game. These are seriously wrong evaluations for these guys from you.

    I am not trying to prove Saybir is a decent shooter or something, also yeah, career stats of young guys don't show something meaningful just like Kabaca's "current condition and technics" doesn't make him a sharp-shooter. You cheapen the value of terms by using them wrongly. Just like calling Korkmaz "brick shooter" or Kabaca "sharp-shooter".

    I am thinking that your insisting on physics and muscles is rather primitive then my point of view through shooting. Or Saybir have other qualities maybe? "Saybir will give us mobility and transitioning from offense to defense" That's it? Realy modern basketball understanding But, believe or not, I agree with this and I wrote something similar already, but is that enough for sharing minutes with Kabaca?
    I am not overvaluing physical assets of players over shooting skills. I state we already have enough shooting threat in our team. We have to enrich our offense. Sometimes we may need chaos basketball in short sequences. You put players like Saybir on floor in those times. He will penetrate, dribble, use his agility to surpass opponents. For my basketball taste, what he offers to us is enough to get some minutes in rotation. Where did I say we can depend on physicality and muscles of Saybir?

    Question isn't Kabaca(cos he will be in the roster) or Saybir, but Osmani or Saybir. Game against Greece will show 99% who will play on EB.
    Yes, this is out of question. Kabaca is in. Greek game will be decisive if we will take all these three guys or leave one of them at home.
    Sports is not only considered as a superiority of physical capability. Perception, intelligence and morality assist it as well. The strong with less intelligence and comprehension can not cope with the less strong but with sufficient intelligence and comprehension. I like the sportsman who is intelligent, agile as well as morally upright.

    Mustafa Kemal ATATÜRK

  18. #98
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slice me nice View Post
    Sometimes we may need chaos basketball in short sequences.
    We don't need Saybir for that, it's enough having Melih and Tuncer together on the court for total chaos Remember 3rd qt against Slovenia?

    You don't need to explain me what Saybir could contibute in short periods of time, after all I put him in my wish roster. But it's a question is it needed at all that PF should have such impact on transition when we already have great players for that chaotic situations, I mean Larkin, Cedi and Hazer are among the best in that segment

    BTW I see big misunderstanding about term sharp shooter, so I will change to smooth shooter. My intention wasn't to disccuss about percentage at all. Just when I see well schooled player, I will always give adventage over those brick throwers with weird strokes. Percentage will come sooner or later, like in Sanli's case.
    Last edited by janketa; 08-16-2022 at 11:14 AM.

  19. #99
    Senior Member slice me nice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    We don't need Saybir for that, it's enough having Melih and Tuncer together on the court for total chaos Remember 3rd qt against Slovenia?
    Hahaha, so true I do, I watched the game from courtside seats Watching Mahmutoğlu making childish mistakes got on my nerves too badly.
    Sports is not only considered as a superiority of physical capability. Perception, intelligence and morality assist it as well. The strong with less intelligence and comprehension can not cope with the less strong but with sufficient intelligence and comprehension. I like the sportsman who is intelligent, agile as well as morally upright.

    Mustafa Kemal ATATÜRK

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    So after watching the game against Georgia the best finishing lineup looks like Larkin - Bitim - Korkmaz - Osman - Sengün. I think thats the best trade-off between offence and defence.

    Georgia is really tough to play and will be the toughest game in the group. I would even consider taking Haltali to Eurobasket since he is the strongest center we have considering his height of course. I dont know how much of this softness is preserving and how much is inability but Sanlis current state is not acceptable.

    Jokic will kill us in the paint with such a defence in Turkey. We need to adapt Bona beginning next year to the NT.

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