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Thread: War in Ukraine

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    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Default War in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
    Well, they are leaving because some posters are jumping on Serbia (like Serbia has anything to do with what is going on now) without having tried to understand Serbia's position on this matter, which I'm trying to point out.

    I already explained our "neutral" position, and won't repeat some facts that are easy to understand no matter how despicable war is.
    If you don't write anything for 1 year and then suddenly write that you're leaving because some people don't understand Serbia's position is just laughable. You have left as active poster, not you, long time ago and that didn't have anything to do with people "disrespect" Serbia.

    Being neutral means that Putin can do whatever he wants. Finland wants in Nato, I should attack them too. Or maybe start with Baltic states, I'm sure Nato won't start a war with me.

    Putin has to be stopped. That's the main goal for Europe, Serbia included, at the moment. That hasn't anything to do with Nato or what USA did in the past. You can hate USA and still understand how important that is.
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-05-2022 at 09:50 AM.
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    Senior Member Serbian_Layup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    If you don't write anything for 1 year and then suddenly write that you're leaving because some people don't understand Serbia's position is just laughable. You have left as active poster, not you, long time ago and that didn't have anything to do with people "disrespect" Serbia.

    Being neutral means that Putin can do whatever he wants. Finland wants in Nato, I should attack them too. Or maybe start with Baltic states, I'm sure Nato won't start a war with me.

    Putin has to be stopped. That's the main goal for Europe, Serbia included, at the moment. That hasn't anything to do with Nato or what USA did in the past. You can hate USA and still understand how important that is.
    I don't hate anyone because I know very well the distinction between politics and people.

    You, however, still don't understand what I'm writing about.

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    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
    I don't hate anyone because I know very well the distinction between politics and people.

    You, however, still don't understand what I'm writing about.
    I understand very well. I have few friends with Serbian origin and they have very similar stance. We're against war, but.. And then you have million reasons why guilt is on both sides. But all this is just bullshit. We have known aggressor, who has no reason to be with tanks in Ukraine and has to be stopped as soon as possible. You don't need to be Nato or USA friend to condemn what Russia is doing.

    I have read Serbian newspapers at the beginning of the war, your president blindly admitted that Serbia's main concern is how not to have problems with EU, while having great relationships with Russia. It's more about Serbian benefits than anything else.
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-05-2022 at 10:37 AM.
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    Senior Member Serbian_Layup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    I understand very well. I have few friends with Serbian origin and they have very similar stance. We're against war, but.. And then you have million reasons why guilt is on both sides. But all this is just bullshit. We have known aggressor, who has no reason to be with tanks in Ukraine and has to be stopped as soon as possible. You don't need to be Nato or USA friend to condemn what Russia is doing.

    I have read Serbian newspapers at the beginning of the war, your president blindly admitted that Serbia's main concern is how not to have problems with EU, while having great relationships with Russia. It's more about Serbian benefits than anything else.
    I will repeat again, if you had been terrorized by NATO bombs for 78 days, if you had watched your country in flames, your people dying, and your natural resources poisoned, you would understand our political position much better.

    I will try to put it this way. People in Ukraine are suffering for real because Putin’s attack is an act of aggression (which it is), while on the other hand people of Serbia and Montenegro (and basically entire Middle East) were calling for NATO bombs and their killings is totally justifiable. Let me rephrase it – when you kill innocent people in the name of “democratization and pacification” - it’s justifiable and no condemnation of crimes is needed; but when you kill innocent people in hostile and aggressive acts, then we are going to raise our voices and condemn everyone who isn’t with us. Hypocrisy, anyone? You still think there is a big difference between Putin and “civilized” world? There is a fine line you can recognize that KILLING is the means that both sides use to achieve their “democratic” or imperialistic goals.

    There is no excuse to answer evil with an even bigger evil. If you are preaching freedom, democracy and value lives as the most sacred possession, how can you do the same thing that your enemies are using to accomplish their goals (gaining more power) by killings. Do you realize that paradox? It doesn’t make you better in the slightest just because you preach democracy, where in fact there is no difference between you and the others you are condemning as evil. You are using the same means that evil does (I don’t mean “you” personally, just trying to explain my argument). And I can write something about those “democratic goals” that didn’t turn out to be so democratic after all (see Middle East). Should we talk about Afghanistan and how it turned out just a couple of months ago? What was the result? Killings, killings, then some more killings. Democracy? Gone with the wind.

    Just one another thing to be clear, I’m all in for Western values, but I’m disgusted by their discrepancy between preaching and acting.

    And there is no "but" with us, war is never an option. However, we are going to point out from our own experience and our own grief, that neither side is purely angelic or demonic. There is something "demonic" on both sides.

    Putin absolutely must be stopped, but that means this world would have to be reborn on completely new principles, because neither side is "angelic" enough to change this world. I understand your argument, but this is how I feel. Be free to feel and think differently.

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    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    World is fucking ugly place sometimes, nobody is denying that and nobody will change that in near future. I believe we, Europeans, have to focus primarily on Europe, in what kind of Europe we want to leave. In this Europe Putin is anomaly. He wants to return decades back, when Russia was still superpower. We cannot allow that. I know life is not that simple and there is past difficult to be forgotten, but in the end it shouldn't be that difficult to choose right path either.

    I want Serbia and all other Balkan countries in EU as soon as possible, because this's the only good/safe solution.
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    Senior Member Straight forward's Avatar
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    Instant respect to Czech Rep. They first showed proper balls and sent tanks to Ukrainians to combat women and kids raping and killing Russian troops. What Russian troops are doing is open genocide. Three Ukrainian women had been raped by Russian troops for 3 days, while their mother gone mad. Spoiled, sleepy and sissy Europe should properly wake up if it's not too late. Ukrainians are fighting back as heroes and we fail to give them proper guns to do that. It's a shame.
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    Ukraine is under unacceptable aggression, and I'm against this military campaign as much as the next guy, but point of view and experience of my nation is a bit of unique. While Ukrainian army is backed by billions - worth of Western aid, when we were in similar situation that same Western world reacted with embargo to to give or sell any kind of weapon to all sides, which was sneaky move because our army literally started with zero tanks while enemy had full capacities of the former YPA! Zelenskyy still use every chance to criticize and shame Europe and NATO because they "didn't do enough", so how much frustrated should we be

    We had to arm ourselves by this way



    The Clinton Tapes - Taylor Branch
    Clinton said U.S. allies in Europe blocked proposals to adjust or remove the embargo. They justified their opposition on plausible humanitarian grounds, arguing that more arms would only fuel the bloodshed, but privately, said the president, key allies objected that an independent Bosnia would be “unnatural” as the only Muslim nation in Europe.

    He said they favored the embargo precisely because it locked in Bosnia’s disadvantage. Worse, he added, they parried numerous alternatives as a danger to the some eight thousand European peacekeepers deployed in Bosnia to safeguard emergency shipments of food and medical supplies. They challenged U.S. standing to propose shifts in policy with no American soldiers at risk.

    While upholding their peacekeepers as a badge of commitment, they turned these troops effectively into a shield for the steady dismemberment of Bosnia by Serb forces. When I expressed shock at such cynicism, reminiscent of the blind-eye diplomacy regarding the plight of Europe’s Jews during World War II, President Clinton only shrugged.

    He said President François Mitterrand of France had been especially blunt in saying that Bosnia did not belong, and that British officials also spoke of a painful but realistic restoration of Christian Europe.

    Against Britain and France, he said, German chancellor Helmut Kohl among others had supported moves to reconsider the United Nations arms embargo, failing in part because Germany did not hold a seat on the U.N. Security Council.
    Due to his elegance and imagination, Mirza Delibasic was one of the continent's greatest ever players.

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    Senior Member remigijus's Avatar
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    Question does anybody thinks that in end when russia will lose " macho" putin will have enough courage to shoot himself in his ural bunker like hitler did ????? =DDDDDDD

    Last edited by remigijus; 04-08-2022 at 01:06 PM.
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    Senior Member remigijus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiHBasket View Post
    Ukraine is under unacceptable aggression, and I'm against this military campaign as much as the next guy, but point of view and experience of my nation is a bit of unique. While Ukrainian army is backed by billions - worth of Western aid, when we were in similar situation that same Western world reacted with embargo to to give or sell any kind of weapon to all sides, which was sneaky move because our army literally started with zero tanks while enemy had full capacities of the former YPA! Zelenskyy still use every chance to criticize and shame Europe and NATO because they "didn't do enough", so how much frustrated should we be

    We had to arm ourselves by this way



    The Clinton Tapes - Taylor Branch
    Nobody expected that russian army will be so pathetic ...NATO experts are in shock how russia fooled world about "modernization of second army in the world" =DDDD condolence to serbia if this is your main military ally you are f...... .=DDDDDD . Just love to see how effective NATO weapons are . Saint Javelin and nlaws makes russian tanks useless. But so far all nato military aid was defense weapons . Now its time to send serious Lethal Weapons. Can you imagine what Ukraine could do with russia army if they had patriot air defense system, f22, Panzerhaubitze 2000, leopards or abrams =DDDDDDDDD

    Last edited by remigijus; 04-05-2022 at 06:05 PM.
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    Senior Member Straight forward's Avatar
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    Another genius move by Bertomeu to held EL final 4 in Belgrade. Anti NATO and Russian supporting soil...Yet another brilliant move by clueless Spanish. Let's make a show at the heat of bloodshed in Ukraine in the soil which actually ally with Russian barbarians. And Serbians, don't even bother...It's all good! Yes, NATO aggression is destructive, but that was the OUTCOME of Serbians initiated ethnic cleansing of Albanians. All this shit...as evil NATO bombed us and we didn't deserve that a tiny bit is bullshit. Dictatorship brutality can be stopped only with force. The beast, the barbarian, the killer understands only the language of sheer force. Or could NATO just nicely ask to stop war crimes? Please...The land of rape and honey had to be stopped. So, when next Serbian guy will jump on this message, first ask a question for yourself? Why Serbia after so many years still remains authoritarian country? Why independent media is pressured, civil liberties oppressed etc,? Is that because of NATO too? Clueless Bertomeu should be gone from EL for good. He has been making so many BS decision recently that he lost any credibility. The guy's a joke and has to go. Serbia voluntary supports the bloodshed of Ukraine. It's your right to support brutal dictatorship which slaughter and rape people in Butcha and all over Ukriane, but get the f..out far away from human rights supporting European Union seriously. Freedom and lives matter here for us! Candidate's status should be taken away from Serbia.

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    Moderator Jazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Another genius move by Bertomeu to held EL final 4 in Belgrade. Anti NATO and Russian supporting soil...Yet another brilliant move by clueless Spanish. Let's make a show at the heat of bloodshed in Ukraine in the soil which actually ally with Russian barbarians. And Serbians, don't even bother...It's all good! Yes, NATO aggression is destructive, but that was the OUTCOME of Serbians initiated ethnic cleansing of Albanians. All this shit...as evil NATO bombed us and we didn't deserve that a tiny bit is bullshit. Dictatorship brutality can be stopped only with force.
    Those NATO bombings killed a lot of civilians. It's well established how the majority of Serbian people feel towards NATO and the reasons for that. That said, to kick the Russian teams out of the competition and then hold the F4 in the country of a longtime Russian ally is pretty confused decision making.


    As for Bertomeu, I think he is finally leaving after this season?

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    Senior Member Straight forward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    Those NATO bombings killed a lot of civilians. It's well established how the majority of Serbian people feel towards NATO and the reasons for that. That said, to kick the Russian teams out of the competition and then hold the F4 in the country of a longtime Russian ally is pretty confused decision making.


    As for Bertomeu, I think he is finally leaving after this season?
    So what was the right thing to do? Not to do anything? To continue the bloodshed of Albanians?

    I hope he's gone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    So what was the right thing to do? Not to do anything? To continue the bloodshed of Albanians?

    I hope he's gone.
    Just stating that the feelings of Serbia towards NATO have long been established.

    It seems like the decision to move the F4 to Belgrade was made in early March, at which point the war was already underway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    It seems like the decision to move the F4 to Belgrade was made in early March, at which point the war was already underway.
    Exactly...Which makes Bertomeu such a lunatic...incredible
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    Senior Member remigijus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    Just stating that the feelings of Serbia towards NATO have long been established.

    It seems like the decision to move the F4 to Belgrade was made in early March, at which point the war was already underway.
    Strange feelings serbians have......they blame NATO not Milošević. So by this logic Germans should blame allies not hitler because at the end of ww2 allies bombed many german cities and many civilians died ??..

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    I was told that war criminals like Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic are still considered as heros in some parts of Serbia. The second one was able to obscure himself for years in Serbia despite being sentenced.

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    Look you guys... What authority in Russia has doing its horrible. Its question what other countries can do to help Ukrainian people. Sanctions towards russian students and artists surely cant help. If countries in Europe cannot find other gas resourse than Russia,any sanctions are senseless .I would support gas suplying sanctions to Russia, what would make Russia serious problems, unlike sanctioning individuals makes no problem for power in Russia. Also,I support taking properties to oligarchs from Russia.
    Last edited by Nemanja95; 04-09-2022 at 10:34 PM.

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    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    We have to understand one thing with Russia and Serbia propaganda what is going in those countries.

    People are brainwashed by well prepared system from very early days and it very hard for them to accept that what they believed for 20 or 30 years was simply truth from one side and tottaly masking why those bombs was put on Serbia in the first place.

    It seems most Serbian people were thought killers nato decided just without single reason start bombing Serbia ...Same like world war 2 germans cities was destroyed without no reason right?

    Hitler/Milosevic was angels send from heaven that how i guess in serbian books those 2 devils is pictured and teach their kids in history lessons such one sided crap .

    Jugoslavia in early 90s was blocked from sport competion like 2022 Russia is . Its not an accident.

    In 2050 russians gonna tell their kids in history lessons how their patrach Vladimir Putin was fighting evil people in Ukraine

    I still have hope that with internet power younger generation wont allow themself to be brainwashed one sided like that
    Last edited by Shawshank; 04-09-2022 at 07:07 PM.

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    Point of the view of most Serbians is completely wrong, but doesnt differ much of other people in other cases.Its easy for someone from Germany, Usa,Lithuania, to have compassion for Ukrainians, when their enemy made aggression. But why we divide mens and countries? Why there isnt compassion like this for Avghanistan,Syria, Iraq,Palestine? Why there isnt? Simply, because they have to ask question about Usa and European imperialism, and breaking human rights,etc...

  20. #20
    Senior Member Straight forward's Avatar
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    The funniest thing is that Russia is announcing their people that they already cut all the gas delivery to Germany (which is a lie) and now Germans are freezing This narrative that Russians are living better (while in reality many regions live in poverty) than the rest is real. One Lithuanian relative from Russia came to Lithuania and he brought soup as the present and said something like "you poor Lithuanians left the union (Soviet) and have been living in such poverty so I brought you these goods"... They sincerely believe that, specially those provincial regions who have TV with national channels and barely have anything to eat. Actually Ukrainians for quite some time lived in a mess and thought that Russia is even a bit better place to live than Ukraine, but adequate understanding of how people live in the West (when they saw it) actually opened their eyes and that's one of the reason's why they are fighting for free and independent Ukraine. But we should also understand that Russians are not idiots. They are normally thinking people, just some of them can't reach any other information than Kremlin's nonsense. Many young people (I would say absolute majority of young Russians, like 14-45yo) understand everything very clearly and understand that national channels produces propaganda or a good part of toxic propaganda, but nevertheless many of them are all OK with that. They are willing to justify Russian aggression with bullshit reasons cause in their veins running the thirst of imperialist power. That's one of the reason why Russia tolerate filthy rich dictator while the masses starve - dictator takes responsibility for imperial crimes, he delivers aggressive imperialist politics. Now young Russian troops rape, kill and rob Ukrainians and those left in Russia feel like their teaching their enemy and bringing glory and greatness to mother Russia. There's the thirst of imperialism that is alive in Russia for many ages. That's why they are OK with dictatorship, they don't know the alternatives and they naturally grown into this way of existing. Poverty (chaotic, libertine way of life), aggression, imperialist ideology is their bread and water. Personally, I think only forced demilitarization and forced reforms would make a difference to Russia. If these things were needed for nazi Germany, too times more is needed for long ages imperialist barbarian paupers Russians. After Putin another Putin coming. Russia will think that Germany and France are poor compared to them for another 100 years... that's the reality...

    Bright and westernized Russians are leaving for Georgia, Finland, Poland and else were and there's plenty of them...Some of them run away because they afraid mobilization and they don't want to die in the war, but not necessary is against Russia's imperialism. For example, Alexey Navalny...brave and strong critic of Putin, but even he says "Kyiv belongs to Russia".

    To lesser extent the same is true to Serbia. Unfortunately authoritative and imperialist tradition runs deeply through Serbians veins...And only long decades of education and living under true democracy can change that, but unfortunately current Serbian authority is pseudo democratic. It's authoritarian democracy, latent dictatorship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
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