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  • #16
    Originally posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
    It's a sensitive subject, so my intention is not to convince people in my belief or to engage in such discussion, but here are my thoughts on this, and I'm back to basketball related stuff:

    1. No one sane is going to support war. No one sane is going to approve killings of any civilians from any country. And definitely there isn't any evil nation or society whose people enjoy suffering and killings of other people. If we want to condemn any nation as "evil", I'm sure we can find countless examples from past in each country (especially those whose mouths are full of moral lectures now) that will suggest that wrong doings of their political leaders or their ideologies are making all nations “guilty” if we are making that kind of generalizations. In that sense no one is clean and we should just destroy each other, because every freaking nation is holding some grudge towards some other nation for wars, crimes etc. from the past.

    2. When things like this happen, people tend to make very superficial generalizations and condemn an entire nation because of some individuals or political decisions of their State officials. However, if someone is ready to condemn an entire Russian society or Russian people (or whomever in certain context) because of Putin's acts, why wouldn't that same person appreciate Russian people or Russian culture through individuals like Dostoevsky, Tolstoy etc. You see, if we are going to use the same logic then we have a lot more or at least equally enough reasons to appreciate than to hate or condemn. How about that?

    3. There are no good sides here. That's not hard to understand. Where were all these people who condemn Russia today when USA, NATO and all those allies were bombing the shit out of Middle East in the name of "Demoracy, pacification and Western values"? All those countless innocent people died there and nobody cared enough to say a word. I guess their lives are not as important as anyone else's. And those same people are giving moral lectures about what's right and what's wrong. That's the hypocrisy Serbian people felt on their skin far too many times and that's what we are pointing out with all sympathies and condolences to Ukrainian people. We know what they are going through because we've been there countless tomes in our history when we sacrificed everything we have to stay on the right path and always chose freedom before anything else. Between Putin and Biden (or Bush, Blair, Trump), I choose none of them (metaphorically and literally). The very simple and honest logic is – if you hate war and what Putin is doing, you will have to point out to all those who are now preaching against the war and have absolutely never taken the guilt for their own crimes and wrong doings. Let’s cherish everyone equally and let’s condemn everyone equally.

    4. About those Western values...sure, I'm all for democracy, freedom, peace and the rule of law. However, I'm all against with the way Western world is trying to implement those democratic values when it’s pretty obvious that there are other motives and interests hidden behind "democracy"? Or is someone going to persuade me that Bush, Biden, Blair etc. are just peacemakers who decided to make piece by killing everything on their way in the name of democracy? No, that's exactly opposite of democracy that they are preaching and just shows how much hypocrisy has taken over this world. There are only and only selfish motives and interests of big powers (including Russia), and democracy serves as a pretext to achieve those interests at any costs. The thing is that it's more obvious in more rigid Eastern societies while those "Western values" are well hidden behind democracy and somewhat harder to detect, but with absolutely same goal – making powerful even more powerful at all costs.
    Your "brothers" are committing war crimes, all those "but blair" and "but tolstoy" doesn't change that
    The Moon Is A SCAM(http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm)!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LuDux View Post
      Your "brothers" are committing war crimes, all those "but blair" and "but tolstoy" doesn't change that
      My brothers are all people who do good, no matter ethnicity, nationality. I thought that was clear from my post.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
        My brothers are all people who do good, no matter ethnicity, nationality. I thought that was clear from my post.
        Lots of excuses to stay "neutral" "War is bad, but"
        The Moon Is A SCAM(http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm)!

        Comment


        • #19
          No system is perfect, but we live in an imperfect world and have to choose one. Values which represent EU looks to me far better than anything else.

          If I understand you right, you're not condemning Russia's aggression against Ukraine, because others has done the same before? That's as wrong as it gets.

          Nobody is saying that Russian are evil, their leadership on the other hand is doing things that nobody has done in Europe for a long time. It's only normal that people condemn it.
          previously known as Beno

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          • #20
            all countries have their blood history,lost their loved ones in wars . Dont need to act that only Serbians lost their kids in wars...

            European people learn from past such dictator who dares with tanks and bombs come to other country have no limits.Entire europe never was so sure and stood together like today.They forgot pasts dissagreement when Putin broke all rules between countries on February 24th

            From what i see only Belarus and lesser degree Serbia/Croatia from european countries didnt said openly by main faces of their country russian as country must must be punished for allowing such evil things still happening in 2020s.

            European other countries people wont forget that when it all this evil will finish who was standing ale neutral wanted to get pluses from both ways .

            Dont need to be suprised that yesterday some ltu fans got emotional couldnt believe that somebody from well educated european countries can be still bough by russian money when such horrible things is happening .

            No trillions in money or tons of gass Russia will not pay out from those war crimes they support putin doing.
            Last edited by Shawshank; 04-04-2022, 11:20 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Killer Bob View Post
              No system is perfect, but we live in an imperfect world and have to choose one. Values which represent EU looks to me far better than anything else.

              If I understand you right, you're not condemning Russia's aggression against Ukraine, because others has done the same before? That's as wrong as it gets.

              Nobody is saying that Russian are evil, their leadership on the other hand is doing things that nobody has done in Europe for a long time. It's only normal that people condemn it.

              You understood it wrongly, like that fellow Ludux above. I'm against Russia's aggression, I'm against war and anything that causes pain and suffering. With that being said, I'm also against blindness and hypocrisy of moral puritans who did the same in the past and preach that this is only Putin's fault, because it isn't. Everyone in NATO and EU are equally responsible for what's going on now in Europe. This is just the breaking point, consequence, what matters is all those causes that have led to this and that have been brewing for years. And if you look a little deeper you will see that all of them took their part in that "cause and effect chain".

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
                You understood it wrongly, like that fellow Ludux above. I'm against Russia's aggression, I'm against war and anything that causes pain and suffering. With that being said, I'm also against blindness and hypocrisy of moral puritans who did the same in the past and preach that this is only Putin's fault, because it isn't. Everyone in NATO and EU are equally responsible for what's going on now in Europe. This is just the breaking point, consequence, what matters is all those causes that have led to this and that have been brewing for years. And if you look a little deeper you will see that all of them took their part in that "cause and effect chain".
                All are equally guilty quote is the biggest nonsense in any kind of situation. Did Europe did something wrong in past decades? Sure it did, but that doesn't mean they're equally guilty for Putin's actions. Putin did it not because Europe or Nato was threat for Russia, but because he believed that they're weak and things will went similar as it has gone with Crimea. He was wrong. Tell me now, who will be guilty, if Putin decides to attack Finland, because they're scared as shit and want in Nato suddenly? Or what do you thing would have already happened to Baltic states, if they haven't had been in Nato? If Putin showed anything to his neighbours with this war is, that being Nato member brings you the best protection available.

                Kasparov has written that 7 years ago. https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/t...9781610396219/

                So yes, West is guilty too, but not in the way you believe.
                Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-04-2022, 11:37 AM.
                previously known as Beno

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Killer Bob View Post
                  All are equally guilty quote is the biggest nonsense in any kind of situation. Did Europe did something wrong in past decades? Sure it did, but that doesn't mean they're equally guilty for Putin's actions. Putin did it not because Europe or Nato was threat for Russia, but because he believed that they're weak and things will went similar as it went with Crimea. He was wrong. Tell me now, who will be guilty, if Putin decides to attack Finland, because they're scared as shit and want in Nato suddenly? Or what do you thing would have already happened to Baltic states, if they haven't had been in Nato? If Putin showed anything to his neighbours with this war is, that being Nato member brings you the best protection available.
                  Do you realize that NATO and Russia will always be in opposite directions? You do realize that both of them are trying to maximize their own and minimize the other's power? You surely realize that it's not going to end well no matter what because they are pushing each other's limits to the point of breaking. I'm not taking Putin's side, but I'm surely not going to share one sided opinion.

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                  • #24
                    Well, the Kremlin thought it can go in and conquer Ukraine easily in days, the Ukrainian army would run away and the people would greet the Russian army as rescuer. There would be some western sanctions but there was enough money which was saved by Kremlin. It was a long term plan to conquer Ukraine. Putin even dared to questioning the existence of Ukraine and the right of self-determination and he threatened the world with nuclear assault if they get involved in the war.

                    His reasons got more and more idiotic. First, he said there would be a genocide towards Russians in the Ukraine then he said he doesnt want US war ships in Sevastopol although there was a new contract of using Sevastopol by the Russians and the NATO doesnt accept countries with unsure borders, so it was never planned to accept the Ukraine in the NATO. BTW there is no way we can talk about an east extension of NATO. The members apply for membership no one is forced being a member.

                    Kremlin should ask itself why the so called brothers want to join to the EU. This is an archaic imperialistic way of thinking and there is no way we could accept this.

                    Putin:

                    1. overestimated his own obviously lousy army
                    2. underestimated the will of self-determination of the Ukrainians
                    3. the unity of the western world
                    4. the deepness of sanctions

                    What he wanted to achieve was:

                    1. to humiliate the western world
                    2. create a buffer zone between NATO and Russia
                    3. Ukrainian resources
                    4. to be accepted as a world power
                    5. to decide about Europes destiny

                    what he got instead:

                    1. his army is revealed as a loughingstock
                    2. the longer the war is ongoing the more damage to the Russian economy
                    3. Russia got excluded from the western world
                    4. Russia strengthened the NATO that its existence was questioned.
                    5. the western sanctions will lead to collapse of the Russian economy on the long term once again

                    And one thing to the comparisons between Russia and the USA. I wont deny the USA made many mistakes itself but there was always a reason for interventions. Saddam Husein wanted to control the middle east resources all by himself and caused two Gulf wars. Bin Laden was the attacker of the world trade center and we see the situation after 20 years freedom in Afghanistan. Belgrade 1999 came after Srebrenica. They waited too long to act if you ask me. Ratko Mladic has bombed Sarajevo for days etc and the reason of the Yugoslavian war was Slobodan Milosevic I am sorry but thats the truth. USA never wanted to invade a country. It wanted to secure the supply of energy of the world and yes innocent people died.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
                      Do you realize that NATO and Russia will always be in opposite directions? You do realize that both of them are trying to maximize their own and minimize the other's power? You surely realize that it's not going to end well no matter what because they are pushing each other's limits to the point of breaking. I'm not taking anyone's side, but I'm surely not going to share one sided opinion.
                      And there's exactly where you're wrong. There is only one aggressor in this conflict. Russia has no reason to be in Ukraine with his army.
                      previously known as Beno

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Killer Bob View Post
                        All are equally guilty quote is the biggest nonsense in any kind of situation. Did Europe did something wrong in past decades? Sure it did, but that doesn't mean they're equally guilty for Putin's actions. Putin did it not because Europe or Nato was threat for Russia, but because he believed that they're weak and things will went similar as it has gone with Crimea. He was wrong. Tell me now, who will be guilty, if Putin decides to attack Finland, because they're scared as shit and want in Nato suddenly? Or what do you thing would have already happened to Baltic states, if they haven't had been in Nato? If Putin showed anything to his neighbours with this war is, that being Nato member brings you the best protection available.

                        Kasparov has written that 7 years ago. https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/t...9781610396219/

                        So yes, West is guilty too, but not in the way you believe.
                        Putin is surely an enemy with the way he has been acting, but does that make Bush or Biden "merciful angels"?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
                          Putin is surely an enemy with the way he has been acting, but does that make Bush or Biden "merciful angels"?
                          What has Biden done?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
                            Putin is surely an enemy with the way he has been acting, but does that make Bush or Biden "merciful angels"?
                            We're talking about war in Ukraine, not about dubious past actions of others. By your logics nobody is guilty of anything, because someone has before done something wrong. It's Putin's war, nobody has forced him in it.
                            previously known as Beno

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Killer Bob View Post
                              We're talking about war in Ukraine, not about dubious past actions of others. By your logics nobody is guilty of anything, because someone has before done something wrong. It's Putin's war, nobody has forced him in it.
                              You don't understand that past is always leading to presence. There is no other way around it. Everything that is happening now has its foundations in the past. By my logic, either everyone is guilty or no one is guilty. For quite some time I thought of this as a nonsense, because I was looking for a particular guilt, but I'm realizing, in reality, everyone is guilty. Think again if you think that NATO doesn't have its share of fault for what is happening now.

                              In no way, shape or form Putin can be justified, but the same can be applied to others. If not to that extent exactly, then certainly to a very recognizable degree. It's just that we are always looking for one sided culprits, but in reality it's much more than that.
                              Last edited by Serbian_Layup; 04-04-2022, 12:28 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Serbian_Layup View Post
                                You don't understand that past is always leading to presence. There is no other way around it. Everything that is happening now has its foundations in the past. By my logic, either everyone is guilty or no one is guilty. For quite some time I thought of this as a nonsense, because I was looking for a particular guilt, but I'm realizing, in reality, everyone is guilty. Think again if you think that NATO doesn't have its share of fault for what is happening now.
                                If your neighbour have friends you don't like and he's not always nice to you and his friends look a bit dangerous to you, you can invade his apartment, kill him and his family and usurp his property? Your neighbour and his friends are equally guilty for what have you done?
                                previously known as Beno

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