Originally posted by Jazz
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
7 EL clubs met privately, concerned with financial affairs managed by Bertomeu & EL
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Jazz View PostThat's a bit defeatist Bob. But yes, hard to have much belief in FIBA at this point.
Is there a way for basketball to go back to Euroleague of late 90s... I lost all hopes already. Money simply got too big, NBA influence too, principles/traditions in nowadays world means less and less and less
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mindozas View PostHow it is possible to believe in FIBA when they tried to fight ULEB back in 00s only till the day they were promised to be paid some sum annually by ULEB, and the fight was over... It didn't change till these days. It's obvious that FIBA cares about the money only and first of all it's them to blame for what happened with basketball. I dislike current EL format, I dislike it becoming similar to NBA, which I'm not a fan at all, but let's face it - if it was not Jordi, then it was just a matter of time when anyone else would've stepped up, cause clubs were getting angrier and angrier with FIBA impotence. The world was changing, money/opportunities started to get bigger and bigger, clubs saw these opportunities, also NBA started to take international players to NBA more openly, clubs couldn't do much about it, but FIBA was in stagnation, they simply ignored it all. They only moved their asses when smth really happened, just to shut up for another decade and more when got paid by those ULEB, which they called evil. Money rules. UEFA now faced the same shit. Money got bigger, but they did nothing about it, basically share some bigger part of the cake with the big clubs which feeds them the most. I'm not supporting any Super League, I'm all for sporting principles to rule the sport, but I understand the anger of big clubs too for UEFA's incompetence. Everyone knows that UEFA is corrupt as fck and has tons of money, but they are not quick to share it until some force majeur happens. Btw, covid wasn't big enough of force majeur, I don't remember some support from UEFA, well, but Super league was. Basically UEFA is still the same thieves, big clubs also cares about money the most. Football is still different universe from basketball and the rest in Europe, there's no NBA in football, so greed is bigger factor, but this tiny fact about both main organisations being lazy/corrupt and top clubs caring only about finances is very similar to basketball's FIBA and EL.
Is there a way for basketball to go back to Euroleague of late 90s... I lost all hopes already. Money simply got too big, NBA influence too, principles/traditions in nowadays world means less and less and less
Ceferin's Uefa is prime example of that arrogance, feeling like they're irreplaceable. Ceferin was on national television speaking about politics on Sunday, just few hours before they tried to steal Championship league away from him. Totally sure in himself and Uefa. And few hours later crying and speaking shit about everyone begun. He was eventually bailed out by British fans and British government, but all the problems are the same and not going away with saying how fantastic work Uefa is doing. And funny enough, Ceferin is very similar to Jordi. A small town lawyer working in his dad's office. No knowledge whatsoever how to run multi billion businesses.Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-22-2021, 10:25 AM.previously known as Beno
Comment
-
"I'm not defending X but both sides are bad so leave X alone"The Moon Is A SCAM(http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm)!
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mindozas View PostHow it is possible to believe in FIBA when they tried to fight ULEB back in 00s only till the day they were promised to be paid some sum annually by ULEB, and the fight was over...The Moon Is A SCAM(http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm)!
Comment
-
Originally posted by Killer Bob View PostIn 2018 the European Commission proposed a new draft directive to end the seasonal time change across the EU. And you can be sure that was done after numerous studies and surveys. Countries will alone decide on which time they will stay permanently. It's just about not changing it twice a year.
Idea of Super league is almost 10 years old, that's why I'm saying Ceferin is just acting to be surprised. The difference is that you have clubs with near or more than 1 billion of debt now. Covid made financial problems much worse.The Moon Is A SCAM(http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm)!
Comment
-
Originally posted by LuDux View PostSo is it normal to talk 12 years about SL that falls apart in 24 hours? Great planning by people that know what they're doing. Also plans to start SL exactly in 2021 were well under long before pandemic, so it's role in this announcement is minimal if any
Super league is about controlling billions of dollars, that couldn't go without a war no matter what. They tried and lost. Do you believe that Uefa reaction would have been different next year? Clubs from top to bottom are in deep shit because of Covid. Not only income, transfers are way down and that has influence on everyone.
Edit: Ok, I see you just quoted my post and didn't comment EU specifically. Sorry.previously known as Beno
Comment
-
If Stanković was incompetent, that means every succesor will be the same untill the end of time?
Could we say that Fiba isn't without a sin and that likewise euroleague is just a playground for what is best for 6 out of 11 (or is it 7 out of 13) of it's licence holders, which likely might not coincide with what's best for sport?
And don't get me wrong Bob, I am no fan of Čeferin and his meddling in politics either. I will support him for his stance again super league and criticize him for his colour blindness in regards to other things.
The battle that Uleb has won in 2000 was something completely different. But Uleb winning in 2000, by no means justifies what euroleague has become in 2020. A coup against a dictator (fiba in 90ies) has evolved into a new dictatorship.Originally posted by Jon_KoncakThat's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"
Comment
-
Originally posted by Killer Bob View PostI honestly don't understand what are you arguing about? My comment was how inefficient and bureaucratic EU is. It's not about, if whole Europe will have summer or winter time, it's free decision for every country to do whatever they find better. It's only about, if they will change time twice a year or not. If they cannot decide on that, you shouldn't be surprised, if they cannot decide on much more important matters.
Super league is about controlling billions of dollars, that couldn't go without a war no matter what. They tried and lost. Do you believe that Uefa reaction would have been different next year? Clubs from top to bottom are in deep shit because of Covid. Not only income, transfers are way down and that has influence on everyone.
Edit: Ok, I see you just quoted my post and didn't comment EU specifically. Sorry.
If it's free decision then why nobody abbandoned it? Also EU wasn't slow, it was too fast
Under the proposal, member countries were expected to decide by 31 March 2019 which time they would observe year round. This was however considered a fairly tight timescale by many.[13][14] The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, which coordinates changes to the time zone database used by most computers and smartphones, notes that "With less than a year's notice there is a good chance that some computer-based clocks will operate incorrectly after the change, due to delays in propagating updates to software and data."[15] The airline industry points out the complexity of revising all airline schedules, particularly in terms of ensuring slot availability on flights outside the EU, and recommends keeping the status quo or deferring the change until at least 2021.[16] An informal meeting of EU transport ministers on 29 October 2018 suggested that many member states would not support the "unrealistic" timetable and that implementation could be pushed back to 2021.[14]The Moon Is A SCAM(http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm)!
Comment
-
Originally posted by Joško Poljak Fan View PostIf Stanković was incompetent, that means every succesor will be the same untill the end of time?
Could we say that Fiba isn't without a sin and that likewise euroleague is just a playground for what is best for 6 out of 11 (or is it 7 out of 13) of it's licence holders, which likely might not coincide with what's best for sport?
And don't get me wrong Bob, I am no fan of Čeferin and his meddling in politics either. I will support him for his stance again super league and criticize him for his colour blindness in regards to other things.
The battle that Uleb has won in 2000 was something completely different. But Uleb winning in 2000, by no means justifies what euroleague has become in 2020. A coup against a dictator (fiba in 90ies) has evolved into a new dictatorship.Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-22-2021, 01:17 PM.previously known as Beno
Comment
-
Originally posted by Killer Bob View PostMy problem is that I haven't seen any plausible program what happens after Euroleague is dismantled. My logic is saying that big clubs would all lesser their budget considerably. You're saying that will be countered by smaller clubs having bigger interest. But to make that work you still need competition, which will bring a lot more interest from public and generating a lot more money. How realistic is that, having in mind that Fiba will have everything in their hands again?
I don't see that as an issue. In fact the EL system has encouraged some of their participants to overspend and I am not sure to what goal, apart from the prestige. Eventually teams with a core of very invested fans and a good share of tickets revenue in their budget, would again head towards some (just; imo) advantage. Namely, the likes of Žalgiris, Bayern, Maccabi, Panathinaikos, Baskonia from EL and some more from lower levels, that have healthy aproach to growth.
In my opinion overspending of some teams is also the reason of a slow organic growth of the league in general, making futile whatever non-over-spenders do to try to close the gap, since the difference is way to big, while also being created outside of how well the bball club is doing bussines. Overspending some 10, 20 % seems reasonable, but with 50+% that's creating a gap that isn't healthy or reasonable. In a closed enviroment with numerous games that are established in order to "protect" these investments, chances to move up or down the ladder aren't big.
That makes me wonder: when was the last time a true euphoria occured within euroleague fan bases and how many of those were there in the last decade? That's like tickets being sold out within few minutes, all the talk in the city being focused on the next game etc. Compared to Aris in 80ies, Žalgiris with the title, Virtus-Fortitudo duels, Partizan in 92', Olimpija in 97-00, Maccabi in 04' and Sharp's threepointer, Olympiacos with Rivers and Panathinaikos with Bodiroga. And numerous smaller ones, I might not be aware of, or forgot about them.
That's the enviroment that generates sales, be it merchandise, tickets or eventualy TV revenue.
It's been a while since I made a detailed comparison in F4 appearances... in 90ies, 00ies and start of 10ies, sure some might say that there should be fair sporting criteria by which the best team qualifies to the F4, while most marketing guys would prefer some level of uncertanty, as in the 90ies, more evenly spreading those F4 appearances through more teams.
A (very) quick look:
90ies F4 appearances 4x Barca, 3x Oly, Pao,2x Split, Benneton, Limoges, Partizan
00-09: 8x CSKA, 7x Maccabi, 6x Pao, 4x Baskonia, 3x Barca...12x all the rest
10-19: 9x CSKA, 7x Real, 5x Oly, 4x Barca, Fener... 11x all the rest
Euroleague's goal should be that participating in it shouldn't be taken for granted, but some sort of an achievement instead. You probably remember Olimpija fans in 00-10, no matter the results, we were there and fans took it for granted. That's not the enthusiasm that sells anything, quite the opposite. I believe the same could be happening right now with euroleague teams that stayed in for too long, appreciating it about as much.
I believe there is a number of teams that could step in instead of some "old powers" and succesfully make up for those. The likes of Virtus, AEK, Hapoel, different French teams such as Strasbourg, numerous Spanish, Turkish teams. Adding different fanbases and potentialy contributing to euroleague increasing it's relatively narrow reach.
The guys I used to play recreational basketball with, were a pretty good eye opener for me. Apart from (obviously) Olimpija and national team, they discussed NBA a lot, march/april was really informative about which NCAA team to watch, some ABA talks and of course at the times of eurobasket they have seen as many games as their wifes and kids would allow it Of course they considered Slovenian national championship as basicaly irrelevant. However they still ended up watching those games and ... year after year paying attention if anyone has anything to say about the euroleague, it seemed that those about 15 guys, basketball wise pretty fanatical and relatively well educated about it, altogether watched maybee 10 games of euroleague per season. That's way less euroleague games seen on TV than overall bball games they attended through season. If they're not the target audience, who is?
That makes me believe interest in euroleague isn't particulary great now, to begin with and it's not as if we are talking some huge shock therapy.Originally posted by Jon_KoncakThat's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"
Comment
-
Originally posted by Joško Poljak Fan View PostThe current euroleague participants would likely decrease their budgets, true.
I don't see that as an issue. In fact the EL system has encouraged some of their participants to overspend and I am not sure to what goal, apart from the prestige. Eventually teams with a core of very invested fans and a good share of tickets revenue in their budget, would again head towards some (just; imo) advantage. Namely, the likes of Žalgiris, Bayern, Maccabi, Panathinaikos, Baskonia from EL and some more from lower levels, that have healthy aproach to growth.
In my opinion overspending of some teams is also the reason of a slow organic growth of the league in general, making futile whatever non-over-spenders do to try to close the gap, since the difference is way to big, while also being created outside of how well the bball club is doing bussines. Overspending some 10, 20 % seems reasonable, but with 50+% that's creating a gap that isn't healthy or reasonable. In a closed enviroment with numerous games that are established in order to "protect" these investments, chances to move up or down the ladder aren't big.
That makes me wonder: when was the last time a true euphoria occured within euroleague fan bases and how many of those were there in the last decade? That's like tickets being sold out within few minutes, all the talk in the city being focused on the next game etc. Compared to Aris in 80ies, Žalgiris with the title, Virtus-Fortitudo duels, Partizan in 92', Olimpija in 97-00, Maccabi in 04' and Sharp's threepointer, Olympiacos with Rivers and Panathinaikos with Bodiroga. And numerous smaller ones, I might not be aware of, or forgot about them.
That's the enviroment that generates sales, be it merchandise, tickets or eventualy TV revenue.
It's been a while since I made a detailed comparison in F4 appearances... in 90ies, 00ies and start of 10ies, sure some might say that there should be fair sporting criteria by which the best team qualifies to the F4, while most marketing guys would prefer some level of uncertanty, as in the 90ies, more evenly spreading those F4 appearances through more teams.
A (very) quick look:
90ies F4 appearances 4x Barca, 3x Oly, Pao,2x Split, Benneton, Limoges, Partizan
00-09: 8x CSKA, 7x Maccabi, 6x Pao, 4x Baskonia, 3x Barca...12x all the rest
10-19: 9x CSKA, 7x Real, 5x Oly, 4x Barca, Fener... 11x all the rest
Euroleague's goal should be that participating in it shouldn't be taken for granted, but some sort of an achievement instead. You probably remember Olimpija fans in 00-10, no matter the results, we were there and fans took it for granted. That's not the enthusiasm that sells anything, quite the opposite. I believe the same could be happening right now with euroleague teams that stayed in for too long, appreciating it about as much.
I believe there is a number of teams that could step in instead of some "old powers" and succesfully make up for those. The likes of Virtus, AEK, Hapoel, different French teams such as Strasbourg, numerous Spanish, Turkish teams. Adding different fanbases and potentialy contributing to euroleague increasing it's relatively narrow reach.
The guys I used to play recreational basketball with, were a pretty good eye opener for me. Apart from (obviously) Olimpija and national team, they discussed NBA a lot, march/april was really informative about which NCAA team to watch, some ABA talks and of course at the times of eurobasket they have seen as many games as their wifes and kids would allow it Of course they considered Slovenian national championship as basicaly irrelevant. However they still ended up watching those games and ... year after year paying attention if anyone has anything to say about the euroleague, it seemed that those about 15 guys, basketball wise pretty fanatical and relatively well educated about it, altogether watched maybee 10 games of euroleague per season. That's way less euroleague games seen on TV than overall bball games they attended through season. If they're not the target audience, who is?
That makes me believe interest in euroleague isn't particulary great now, to begin with and it's not as if we are talking some huge shock therapy.
The other difference between those times and nowadays is quality of basketball in Europe. You had the best players from Europe playing in Europe back then, many fantastic South Americans and even some very decent ex NBA players. Now the best players are Mirotic, Larkin, Vesely, Nando...Solid players but they cannot be face of the league, you won't bring younger population to watch them. There's no charisma around them.
Popularity of basketball is down and quality of players is down. Not much to do. With lower budgets, you might lose even players like Larkin, Mirotic...which is not exactly devastating, but not helping for sure. And then you have ageing problem. Numerous of stars getting old. Who will replace Nando, Chacho, Llull, Teo, Calathes, Printezis, Spanoulis...?There were always young kids behind stars in the past, now those players are in Nba.
World is changing. Even football has some problems with viewers, Nba is down too. Those new generations want something different, more exciting, faster...I don't see basketball in Europe providing that, no matter what.Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-23-2021, 02:41 PM.previously known as Beno
Comment
-
Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Tottenham and six European clubs founded the Super League on Sunday, and by Wednesday it had died - but despite its death greed in football hasn't been quelled
I believe writter explains very well what is all about. Ceferin has replaced Agnelli with Al-Khelaifi. President of a club, who is constantly breaching financial FairPlay.previously known as Beno
Comment
-
Originally posted by Killer Bob View PostI don't believe comparing past to now is relevant. When I was going to school, basketball was in my environment (Siska) sport #1. We were basically playing only basketball, football was seen as sport for others. We spent every afternoon in Ilirija. Nowadays, kids are playing/training mostly only football. Nobody is watching any kind of basketball on TV, Luka and big NT competitions, the only exception. Football has won, sadly but true.
The other difference between those times and nowadays is quality of basketball in Europe. You had the best players from Europe playing in Europe back then, many fantastic South Americans and even some very decent ex NBA players. Now the best players are Mirotic, Larkin, Vesely, Nando...Solid players but they cannot be face of the league, you won't bring younger population to watch them. There's no charisma around them.
Popularity of basketball is down and quality of players is down. Not much to do. With lower budgets, you might lose even players like Larkin, Mirotic...which is not exactly devastating, but not helping for sure. And then you have ageing problem. Numerous of stars getting old. Who will replace Nando, Chacho, Llull, Teo, Calathes, Printezis, Spanoulis...?There were always young kids behind stars in the past, now those players are in Nba.
World is changing. Even football has some problems with viewers, Nba is down too. Those new generations want something different, more exciting, faster...I don't see basketball in Europe providing that, no matter what.
I agree that it will be hard for euroleague to buid their own stars system, especialy now when euro and NBA game is interchangeable. And a closed league kind of needs such sysstem to market itself. That is why I am in favour of a competition system based on fan-allegiance instead of stars. You might be right and those days of local-nationalism are off, but I consider it still more likely to get some fanbase of 2,3,4 millions enthusiastic about their team in euroleague, than making a big name player, keeping him in europe and market the sh*t out of him.
We can disagree on what's the optimal way to develop european basketball, however there are some cold hard facts, that are really hard to ignore. If stars would be the only way to develop the sport, than hockey in europe would be f*cked. On the opposite, it's not.
1. Who is the best ice hockey player in Swiss national league and 2. how much does that league receive in terms of TV revenue?
1. No idea whatsoever 2. iirc 30 M CHF per year = almost as much as euroleague is able to earn in the whole european market for arguably the 2nd most popular sport.
It might be that Swiss younger population isn't all that keen on Zurich - Bern rivalry, but I would dare saying "case closed" anyway, since obviously enough people are in order for TV to pay that money...
I would approach the problem of young players with a bit different angle; investments in good youth programs are very few in europe and compared to 20 years ago those got additionaly centralised to fewer clubs. We do not have the NCAA to take care of it, so unless the whole pyramid is taken care of, there is no system which can supply euroleague with players. That's why you just don't strangle the feeders, the way euroleague did...Originally posted by Jon_KoncakThat's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"
Comment
Comment