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Thread: 7 EL clubs met privately, concerned with financial affairs managed by Bertomeu & EL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    I have only one question, why Premier league is generating that much money? Would it had generated the same amount of money, if there were playing dropouts from better leagues?

    I even agree in some way, there's no point of having Euroleague, if we're having average players there. Just play domestic leagues and some short tournament like Champions league in football.
    It's benchmarking the products of (to some degree) comparable worth.

    If the dropouts from other leagues only, would play in premier league, it would surely earn less than they do now from the TV deals. But it would be even worse if Champions league and european / world championship TV rights would be out there available for free. Try earning 100 M € for champions league tv rights, while Premier league rights gets sold for 10 M € only and they share simmilar attention/marketability? Of course all the networks would bid for Premier league rights and no matter the popularity, they would never bid to the ammount they are paying right now (is it over a billion per season?), if there was comparable product either champions league or euro championship available for piece of change in comparison.
    Of course all this is hypothetical and none of that is going to happen, since they are all very interconnected and as I mentioned before, it is not a zero-sum game. If a Premier league earns a better TV deal, that is a great news for Champions league. It's impossible for premier league to be hugely popular, while euro championship and champions league being completely ignored, it's the same sport, same players, different competitions.
    Surely lack of stars would affect marketability, but the core, big spenders are to a large degree also team fans and they might still support their team no matter what. It's their enthusiasm that makes things moving, not some David Beckham groupies.

    Premier league is a good product, that through benchmark increases the ammount of money TV networks are willing to pay for either champions league or european / world championship. Eventually it also goes the other way around. With that increased investment, the media has to take precautions to protect their (big) investment, therefor producing so much material, publicity, exposure. That's one of the factors why football seems so far ahead from everyone else, even in countries where it is actually not, because Media are paying big bucks and need football to be there at no.1 to make it worth while. Fans eventually follow.
    And that is also why, while various sports might be benchmarked against each other, they hardly earn same € "per viewership" compared to football.

    The goal of euroleague should be, to achieve big enough investments from TV networks, so that the latter start protecting their investment with additional buzz and content.
    However instead of supporting the Fiba NT windows, Bertomeu acts like it is a zero sum game and those windows eating up on his piece of cake. Well, he obviously isn't some far sighted fella'.
    Euroleague on it's own will likely never be able to reach the critical point, they need succesfull and big € earning eurobasket, since that is basicaly the only exposure to basketball for vast masses of europeans and they need succesfull and competitive national championships in order to mobilise fans out of their few core licenced teams. That's long term and it takes brains and guts. Short term solution: increase the number of games for more revenue.


    It is a long and painstaking process, of continual growth and improvement that football managed to ride through 90ies on, which basketball missed, maybee even missed for good, since in these times tv viewership is dropping and my guess is that TV networks will now likely be conservative with their bidding.
    Last edited by Joško Poljak Fan; 04-15-2021 at 01:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    You have written a roman, I will be a lot shorter.

    It's not the problem of Larkin, Micic, Veseli...playing in Euroleague, but them being face of the league is. And yes mostly everyone worth something and not being old is playing or will play in Nba very soon. And things are going down rapidly with kids going there. Look at guards in Europe, Nando, Chacho, Llull, Shved, Delaney, Teo, Belinelli, Spanoulis...What's common for all of them?

    About Nba, would I been watching Nba without Jokic, Doncic, Bogdanovic...No. I would have watched only playoffs like in MJ times. And btw. Nba playoffs are great basketball.

    About Acb and other leagues. Real is playing 50 games there and is still losing a lot of money. So apparently there's a problem with European basketball that goes beyond Jordi. Bottom line is, you have to have a product people are interested in. And all start with players.

    I'm sure you can produce another angry reply, but I'm for sure not a problem. I'm watching Euroleague, Acb, Nba and still enjoy playing recreational basketball.
    Yes, G League is really starting to take off as a developmental league so this is definitely attracting more Europeans. For instance it seemed to do Poku a lot of good. All the while he was still getting paid a NBA contract. To make matters worse if college basketball does start to allow players to make money that could attract even more young Euros.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    It's benchmarking the products of (to some degree) comparable worth.

    If the dropouts from other leagues only, would play in premier league, it would surely earn less than they do now from the TV deals. But it would be even worse if Champions league and european / world championship TV rights would be out there available for free. Try earning 100 M € for champions league tv rights, while Premier league rights gets sold for 10 M € only and they share simmilar attention/marketability? Of course all the networks would bid for Premier league rights and no matter the popularity, they would never bid to the ammount they are paying right now (is it over a billion per season?), if there was comparable product either champions league or euro championship available for piece of change in comparison.
    Of course all this is hypothetical and none of that is going to happen, since they are all very interconnected and as I mentioned before, it is not a zero-sum game. If a Premier league earns a better TV deal, that is a great news for Champions league. It's impossible for premier league to be hugely popular, while euro championship and champions league being completely ignored, it's the same sport, same players, different competitions.
    Surely lack of stars would affect marketability, but the core, big spenders are to a large degree also team fans and they might still support their team no matter what. It's their enthusiasm that makes things moving, not some David Beckham groupies.

    Premier league is a good product, that through benchmark increases the ammount of money TV networks are willing to pay for either champions league or european / world championship. Eventually it also goes the other way around. With that increased investment, the media has to take precautions to protect their (big) investment, therefor producing so much material, publicity, exposure. That's one of the factors why football seems so far ahead from everyone else, even in countries where it is actually not, because Media are paying big bucks and need football to be there at no.1 to make it worth while. Fans eventually follow.
    And that is also why, while various sports might be benchmarked against each other, they hardly earn same € "per viewership" compared to football.

    The goal of euroleague should be, to achieve big enough investments from TV networks, so that the latter start protecting their investment with additional buzz and content.
    However instead of supporting the Fiba NT windows, Bertomeu acts like it is a zero sum game and those windows eating up on his piece of cake. Well, he obviously isn't some far sighted fella'.
    Euroleague on it's own will likely never be able to reach the critical point, they need succesfull and big € earning eurobasket, since that is basicaly the only exposure to basketball for vast masses of europeans and they need succesfull and competitive national championships in order to mobilise fans out of their few core licenced teams. That's long term and it takes brains and guts. Short term solution: increase the number of games for more revenue.


    It is a long and painstaking process, of continual growth and improvement that football managed to ride through 90ies on, which basketball missed, maybee even missed for good, since in these times tv viewership is dropping and my guess is that TV networks will now likely be conservative with their bidding.
    I understand theory of all that, but my question still stands. Premier league, LaLiga, Champions league...all have the best players in the world, and that's the main reason people are watching and consequently paying them. On the other hand all the best and the most perspective basketball players are in Nba, how should Euroleague or Fiba market those leftovers, even if we forget how less popular basketball is in comparison to football? Explain to my son, why should he watch any kind of basketball in Europe, except NT competition? Even my generation is not watching much basketball anymore, except Luka and NT, younger generations are watching near 0 and I doubt very much that will get better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    It's benchmarking the products of (to some degree) comparable worth.

    If the dropouts from other leagues only, would play in premier league, it would surely earn less than they do now from the TV deals. But it would be even worse if Champions league and european / world championship TV rights would be out there available for free. Try earning 100 M € for champions league tv rights, while Premier league rights gets sold for 10 M € only and they share simmilar attention/marketability? Of course all the networks would bid for Premier league rights and no matter the popularity, they would never bid to the ammount they are paying right now (is it over a billion per season?), if there was comparable product either champions league or euro championship available for piece of change in comparison.
    Of course all this is hypothetical and none of that is going to happen, since they are all very interconnected and as I mentioned before, it is not a zero-sum game. If a Premier league earns a better TV deal, that is a great news for Champions league. It's impossible for premier league to be hugely popular, while euro championship and champions league being completely ignored, it's the same sport, same players, different competitions.
    Surely lack of stars would affect marketability, but the core, big spenders are to a large degree also team fans and they might still support their team no matter what. It's their enthusiasm that makes things moving, not some David Beckham groupies.

    Premier league is a good product, that through benchmark increases the ammount of money TV networks are willing to pay for either champions league or european / world championship. Eventually it also goes the other way around. With that increased investment, the media has to take precautions to protect their (big) investment, therefor producing so much material, publicity, exposure. That's one of the factors why football seems so far ahead from everyone else, even in countries where it is actually not, because Media are paying big bucks and need football to be there at no.1 to make it worth while. Fans eventually follow.
    And that is also why, while various sports might be benchmarked against each other, they hardly earn same € "per viewership" compared to football.

    The goal of euroleague should be, to achieve big enough investments from TV networks, so that the latter start protecting their investment with additional buzz and content.
    However instead of supporting the Fiba NT windows, Bertomeu acts like it is a zero sum game and those windows eating up on his piece of cake. Well, he obviously isn't some far sighted fella'.
    Euroleague on it's own will likely never be able to reach the critical point, they need succesfull and big € earning eurobasket, since that is basicaly the only exposure to basketball for vast masses of europeans and they need succesfull and competitive national championships in order to mobilise fans out of their few core licenced teams. That's long term and it takes brains and guts. Short term solution: increase the number of games for more revenue.


    It is a long and painstaking process, of continual growth and improvement that football managed to ride through 90ies on, which basketball missed, maybee even missed for good, since in these times tv viewership is dropping and my guess is that TV networks will now likely be conservative with their bidding.
    Really fantastic post, especially about the media companies protecting their investments. But the other thing about football is that it is too big to fail. It doesn't matter how many hyped games turn out to be disappointing, it just never loses its audience.

    And going back to the title of this thread, is there any chance that those 7 disgruntled teams could consider FIBA as an alternative?

    Also good to see Terrorizer back posting again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    I understand theory of all that, but my question still stands. Premier league, LaLiga, Champions league...all have the best players in the world, and that's the main reason people are watching and consequently paying them. On the other hand all the best and the most perspective basketball players are in Nba, how should Euroleague or Fiba market those leftovers, even if we forget how less popular basketball is in comparison to football? Explain to my son, why should he watch any kind of basketball in Europe, except NT competition? Even my generation is not watching much basketball anymore, except Luka and NT, younger generations are watching near 0 and I doubt very much that will get better.
    I think he'd rather know why you got him a Real shirt with Tyus' name and number on the back.

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    Terrorizer

    You must be kidding saying that basketball shares 2nd spot with ice hockey in sports hierarchy in your country. I knew many russians from basketball and noone of them would say smth like that. They would only say it's not even close. Recently your junior ice hockey NT failed in WC and that was smth big and drew attention like always. Nothing to compare with basketball. I remember even when your senior NT won EC in 2007 it wasn't any big event in Russia. In some other sports it would be.

    Also figure skating draws very much attention in Russia. Some Zagitova is a star in your country. Who is Shved knows only those rare people who watch basketball.

    Seriously you are the only one russian who i ever met (strong word, but still) and who would put basketball among top3 sports in Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    I understand theory of all that, but my question still stands. Premier league, LaLiga, Champions league...all have the best players in the world, and that's the main reason people are watching and consequently paying them. On the other hand all the best and the most perspective basketball players are in Nba, how should Euroleague or Fiba market those leftovers, even if we forget how less popular basketball is in comparison to football? Explain to my son, why should he watch any kind of basketball in Europe, except NT competition? Even my generation is not watching much basketball anymore, except Luka and NT, younger generations are watching near 0 and I doubt very much that will get better.
    Certanly euroleague can not market it's competition the same way NBA does, while having only leftovers playing for them. Agreed. That is why the current competition system is utter nonsense. But more or less that's a lazy excuse, easily discarded when digging deeper into various comparisons.
    As much as some people would say NCAA system has absolutely no sense whatsoever, the result is that... it's incredibly succesfull in marketing players that are 99% way below the euroleague level, let's be fair some games are on Slovenian 1st league level. And NCAA is succesfully marketing bonds with "alma mater", which are way smaller and weaker than bonds most europeans have with the region, city they live/lived in or nationality or the "football bigger brother" club in some cases. If people would give as much credit to the quality as you say you do, than NCAA would never be earning the bucks they do. And neither would vast majority of european football leagues, who cares about Ajax-Eindhoven? So, yeah, it's not only possible, but quite feasible.

    Some people will prefer watching only the best in their job, some others will choose to support someone they feel close to. To each his own.
    Last edited by Joško Poljak Fan; 04-17-2021 at 07:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    I want to point out out that european basketball is losing its unique atmosphere. outside of technical or player quality aspect, the atmosphere is lacking latelty sadly I find these corona games without attendance more pleasant than last years games played in packed arenas.

    el higher ups and team execs are trying to tame the fans, I don't know if they want the fans watch the game quietly sipping wine or something, now we have kiss cams and some other bullshit. And I am not saying "lets bring the flares and occasional coin showers back!". they killed the passion of european basketball trying to emulate the nba model. add that to the quaranteed spots in the league ignoring basketball merit... el games used to be national events.

    if el wants more views and tv money. they need to bring the old format and the fans back. nba model is not the road to follow. what s the point of being an nba knock off anyway, if people wants to watch that they ll choose nba over knock off el.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    Certanly euroleague can not market it's competition the same way NBA does, while having only leftovers playing for them. Agreed. That is why the current competition system is utter nonsense. But more or less that's a lazy excuse, easily discarded when digging deeper into various comparisons.
    As much as some people would say NCAA system has absolutely no sense whatsoever, the result is that... it's incredibly succesfull in marketing players that are 99% way below the euroleague level, let's be fair some games are on Slovenian 1st league level. And NCAA is succesfully marketing bonds with "alma mater", which are way smaller and weaker than bonds most europeans have with the region, city they live/lived in or nationality or the "football bigger brother" club in some cases. If people would give as much credit to the quality as you say you do, than NCAA would never be earning the bucks they do. And neither would vast majority of european football leagues, who cares about Ajax-Eindhoven? So, yeah, it's not only possible, but quite feasible.

    Some people will prefer watching only the best in their job, some others will choose to support someone they feel close to. To each his own.
    NCAA is non professional league, there is where they draw appeal. And even this amateur league is driven by stars. Do you really believe that professional NCAA would have brought money? Teams having to pay their players? Teams having to be successful to survive?

    I would gladly watch every game of amateur Olimpija playing Aba league. But I have no interest whatsoever to watch random Americans or subpar Europeans in the same league.

    How can you feel close to random Americans, who are changing every year?

    If it's that simple, why very solid league, Acb, where it's obligatory to play home(Spanish) players, is not making money?
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-17-2021 at 03:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    Waterpolo is eycellent example. Besides Italian league all others are not peofessional and survive just because of states financial injections. Serbia is best waterpolo country in the world, you have goals on every lake and swimming pool in every city, same goes for Montenegro and Hungary and Croatia but in 95 percent of the cases players earn less than average office salary and games are except Olympics and World Cup uninteresting to the public.
    Ok, but volleyball and handball are mostly professional as far as I know. I also don't think that top athletes should earn annual medium-sized town's budget, as is the case with NBA. In a very competitive sports like basketball I think that salaries for pros should be qualitatively more than those for average office inhabitants but I also do believe that hundreds times ratio in salaries between professional athletes and your Average Joe is morally wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    It's not a mantra but a fact that no sponsor in Europe will pay sustainable money for basket. Just example: in Germany BBL isn't even covered on TV but in online media.
    I've just checked the situation with football and it looks the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports...cts_in_Germany

    ARD and ZDF only show highlights of Fussball Bundesliga games. Everything else is available only on subscription-like model (SKY and DAZN). Actually this wiki article says that in basketball situation is even better as Sport1 shows one game per week. Either way, I watch it through livestreams (if my memory serves me right Magenta Sport is the channel organizing translations) and the technical quality of translations themselves is very solid, one of the best in Europe. I can't say anything about live commentary as I don't speak Deutsch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    When I was at Eurobasket 2015 you couldn't find 1 banner in all Berlin. People didn't know that it is even played. I would love it to be different but it's simply lacking interest.
    I agree with you that there are many problems with proper marketability of basketball here in Europe but nevertheless those games of Bundesmannschaft were attended by more than 12,000 people per game and other games attracted numbers in a range from 4,000 to 9,000 spectators (except for some games with Iceland NT generaly attended by 3,500 - 4,000 people). In comparison, 2018 FIVB World Champiomship had average attendance of 4,139 per game, 2019 FIVB World Cup had average attendance 2,310. By the way, I was surprised to find out that Handball Euro Championships attracts more spectators than basketball and volleyball European Championships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    You have written a roman, I will be a lot shorter.
    I won't write another "roman" but I think that we are very different in our outlook about sports and it's better to leave it at that. For me sports was never about the stars and all the glossy chick attracted by the presence of those. That's why I always choose NCAA over NBA if I want to watch some overseas games. I mean, to watch basketball exclusively because of Doncics and LeBrons is like reading only books written by Nobel Prize in Literature laureates or, for even better comparison, watching exclusively Oscar-awarded movies. For me, it's a very weird choice. Yeah, in some things I'm essentially an arthouse guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Bottom line is, you have to have a product people are interested in. And all start with players.
    I know, that people are led to believe that there's nothing of value players-wise aside from the most hyped up megastars (just like, to continue with movies analogy, many people think that if there's no Brad Pitt or Scarlett Johansson caliber Hollywood stars in the movie it is not worth watching), but there are literally thousands of basketball players who could be actually exciting to watch if the proper angle of view is chosen. And as a basketball fan for quite a some time, I was more excited about seeing Gorenc/Tusek over Vujacic/Udrih or, for another oldie example, Soragna over Bellinelli. You just need another ways of marketing those players/teams and the product they produce. And NCAA example, numerous times mentioned by others, shows that in principle it is very much possible.

    And I can say that basketball-wise rugular seasons of the best NCAA conferences (like Big Ten, for example) offer better quality of basketball being compared to egular seasons NBA, not on the level of players' personal "star potential" but on the level of the game itself. It's much more varied and multi-dimensional in both offense and defense. And it is much more tension-filled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    Of course all this is hypothetical and none of that is going to happen, since they are all very interconnected and as I mentioned before, it is not a zero-sum game. If a Premier league earns a better TV deal, that is a great news for Champions league. It's impossible for premier league to be hugely popular, while euro championship and champions league being completely ignored, it's the same sport, same players, different competitions.
    Surely lack of stars would affect marketability, but the core, big spenders are to a large degree also team fans and they might still support their team no matter what. It's their enthusiasm that makes things moving, not some David Beckham groupies.
    Completely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    The goal of euroleague should be, to achieve big enough investments from TV networks, so that the latter start protecting their investment with additional buzz and content.
    However instead of supporting the Fiba NT windows, Bertomeu acts like it is a zero sum game and those windows eating up on his piece of cake. Well, he obviously isn't some far sighted fella'.
    Euroleague on it's own will likely never be able to reach the critical point, they need succesfull and big € earning eurobasket, since that is basicaly the only exposure to basketball for vast masses of europeans and they need succesfull and competitive national championships in order to mobilise fans out of their few core licenced teams. That's long term and it takes brains and guts.
    Actually, success of both national leagues and national team competitions should increase the level and marketability of the top inter-European club competition. Belgian footballers playing in the top leagues make more people outside of the national team core local supporters not to switch to another channel/livestream when Belgian NT plays and Beligum NT medal finish in the last World Cup makes more people interested in the leagues where these top Belgian players compete. Similarly, a good run from some German teams (not named Bayern) in the Champions League make more non-Germans paying attention to (football) Bundesliga. JPF is absolutely right: if the system works as it should, then success of any continental competition helps other interconnected competitions to increase in popularity. It's not a zero-sum game, quite coontrary, it's collaborative. Or at least it should be collaborative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    Short term solution: increase the number of games for more revenue.
    And that's exactly the only IMG+Jordi's plan. Now we see it happening in 7Days Cup.

    Truth is that with all the changes EL didn't became more popular. For example, during 2013-2014 with EL of 24 teams among which were such "non-marketbale" teams like Budivelnyk, Zielona Gora and Nanterre, 9 teams had 9,000+ average attendance and five years later EL 2018-2019 has 6 such teams (out of 16 carefully pre-selected Jordi's darlings) with negative trend in attendances for most participating teams. The whole point in favour of closed league was that while there is only marginal excitement about watching Barcelona - Zielona Gora, attendances and general interest would increase once there are no such games. Somehow that didn't work as planned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    Also good to see Terrorizer back posting again.
    Thanks a lot for your kind words, mate. By the way, I always appreciate your input and I especially like in your posts something I most defintely lack in mine - the way you express your argument firmly yet in a very restrained, non-biting manner.

    Also Killer Bob always points out that European football is successful because the best players are (generally) playing in Europe while European basketball is "unsuccessful" exclusively because "the best players" are in NBA. Yet I think that this is a very simplistic explanation. For example, volleyball is an indoor game like basketball and it's not some exotic stuff. And generally all the best volleyballers (including US ones) are playing in Europe... yet somehow volleyball didn't achieve football-like levels of popularity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drskull View Post
    I want to point out out that european basketball is losing its unique atmosphere. outside of technical or player quality aspect, the atmosphere is lacking latelty sadly I find these corona games without attendance more pleasant than last years games played in packed arenas.
    Oh, that's a very interesting point. And the one I mostly agree with. NBA markets itself as a sort of suburbian/bourgeois "tame entertainment", very non-gritty, very flashy&kitschy yet insipid. NBA live atmosphere is really mall-like. It's big and posh and flashy but ultimately lifeless and fake. Historically European tradition was very much unlike it. Supporting your local team in the arena was (mainly) a working class pastime with a distinctly urban feel, not as rowdy and violent as football but still passionate, sometimes even frantic, and generally rough around the edges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher View Post
    Terrorizer

    You must be kidding saying that basketball shares 2nd spot with ice hockey in sports hierarchy in your country.
    Look, I don't have stats and either way I don't know how exactly you can measure popularity. What is more popular in France - football's Ligue 1 or Roland Garros or Tour de France? Dunno. Also if you want to measure sports popularity by the official number of people actively participating in some sort of competitions, then there are some numbers for you: in the same France horse-riding comfortably sits at number three, below only football and tennis (basketball is fourth, judo is fifth, handball is sixth and rugby only seventh). Similar numbers for Russia can be found here: https://rsport.ria.ru/20190410/1552545169.html (link in Russian). I don't know how they calculate these numbers but football is first, volleyball is second (whut!?), swimming is third (I think 99% of those people here who do follow sports would be hard-pressed to name more than a couple of currently active Russian swimmers), "light athletics" is fourth, basketball is fifth while ice hockey is only tenth. Frankly, I don't think that you can really judge about sport popularity by these numbers.

    But I'm definitely not kidding. Look, maybe it's not as clear-cut as football's primacy but generally ice hockey and basketball are the next ones. These are among the most popular websites about sports in Russia: https://www.sports.ru and https://news.sportbox.ru The first one lists sports in the following manner: football - ice hockey - basketball - auto (means different types of racing, F1 is really popular in some circles here) - tennis - box/MMA/UFC (this one is really popular, btw, especially among the folks from Northern Caucasus and some other "ethnic" regions). The second one's list is football - ice hockey - basketball - boxing - Formula 1 - biathlon - tennis - MMA.

    If basketball wasn't even close as your "russians from basketball" tell you, then most probably these lists would be different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher View Post
    I remember even when your senior NT won EC in 2007 it wasn't any big event in Russia. In some other sports it would be.
    What sports are you talking about? By the way, I was shouting out of window when Spaniards failed to convert their last basket and some of my neighbours did the same, and people made street fireworks here when our team won back in 2007 (definitely not as massive as football street fireworks though). Yet it's Khimki, so here basketball could be slightly more popular than in a similarly sized Russian city.

    Either way, football (where Russia generally fails hard) is tenfold or even bigger in popularity to any sports which is second popularity-wise, be it hockey, basketball or whatever kind of sports your "russians from basketball" told you.

    About ice hockey vs basketball I think that basketball enjoys a bigger popularity if we consider playing the game (partially global warming is to blame, there are less and less openair improvised ice rinks here, during my early childhood my city of Khimki was full of them in winter, right now these are few and far between) and ice hockey enjoys a bigger popularity if we consider watching the game. Also you have to take into account some regional discrepancies. Russia is a big country and it's not entirely homogeneous sports-wise. Ice hockey is definitely very big in Urals and western Siberia (it's very popular in cities like Ufa, Chelyabinsk, Magnitogorsk, Novokuznetsk). But it's much less popular in Central Russia, where most Russians actually live.

    Attendance numbers are surprisingly tricky to find aside from top competitions but during the last non-coronaviruse VTB League season five Russian teams have attendance figures more than 3,000 (Khimki, Unics, Loko and Zenit were all in 3,000 - 4,000 range while Parma from basketball-crazed city of Perm' had solid 5,233 spectators per game). Football Premier Liga has average attendance at 13,416 and ice hockey's KHL had 6,492 average attendance. Some old volleyball numbers indicate that the most attended team had less than 3,000 spectators per game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher View Post
    Also figure skating draws very much attention in Russia. Some Zagitova is a star in your country. Who is Shved knows only those rare people who watch basketball.
    Figure skating? For real? I know one category of people who are really passionate about it. These are women in their late 40s/50s/60s. In most cases these "sports fans" never follow any other sports, aside maybe from rhythmic gymnastics and synchronized swimming. It's a very niche audience and aside from it no one gives a shit about figure skating. You just can't go into, for example, sports bar here in Russia and find figure skating being broadcasted there. Actually, aside from Olympics, in sports bars I've witnessed only three type of sports being broadcasted and actually watched - football (90% of the time), ice hockey and basketball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    NCAA is non professional league, there is where they draw appeal. And even this amateur league is driven by stars. Do you really believe that professional NCAA would have brought money? Teams having to pay their players? Teams having to be successful to survive?
    You're right that their amateur status is a big part of the appeal of college teams, although it is difficult to know how fans reconcile that with how well the top coaches are paid. So well that Coach K has been content not to move to the NBA in all those years.
    Also backing up your argument is just how popular high school football is in a state like Texas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorizer View Post
    Thanks a lot for your kind words, mate. By the way, I always appreciate your input and I especially like in your posts something I most defintely lack in mine - the way you express your argument firmly yet in a very restrained, non-biting manner.

    Also Killer Bob always points out that European football is successful because the best players are (generally) playing in Europe while European basketball is "unsuccessful" exclusively because "the best players" are in NBA. Yet I think that this is a very simplistic explanation. For example, volleyball is an indoor game like basketball and it's not some exotic stuff. And generally all the best volleyballers (including US ones) are playing in Europe... yet somehow volleyball didn't achieve football-like levels of popularity.
    Thank you. But I have to admit that my approach to posting on here often involves a lot of backspacing before I hit "reply." I l've always enjoyed how passionate and unfiltered your posts are.

    As for the "best players" argument, even with the addition of the two way contracts and a more robust development league, I think there will still be quality basketball players in Europe. Good players who don't quite fit the NBA whether that is because they are less athletic, undersized, late bloomers or their playing styles don't fit the prevailing trends of the time. Basketball is too global and NBA roster spaces are too limited for a total monopoly on talent. America alone produces more good players than could ever be signed to an NBA team.

    It looks like football has decided to follow the Jordi model:
    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/others/...closed-league/

  13. #53
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post


    It looks like football has decided to follow the Jordi model:
    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/others/...closed-league/
    We might see soon how easy is making money without best players.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    We might see soon how easy is making money without best players.
    On the contrary, I don't think you will have the pleasure.
    To all of us, that despised so much, what euroleague has evolved into (do mind, that in case they would propose this licencing straight away in 2000, when divorcing Fiba, they would too get burned to the ground), it has finaly come to the last battle. Winner takes it all. Do not let yourself believe for one second, that the outcome won't have big consequences on euroleague.

    SEOK, Terrorizer, EverGreen, Jon_Koncak, Picek... and hordes of others that aren't lurking these boards anymore (go wonder why *cough), or just occasionaly drop by at eurobasket times, PAOK, Aris, Aek, Hapoel TA and numerous other fans that might come across these boards by accident after 15 years... open a beer, today we drink to a start towards an end of this idiocracy, called euroleague. Cheers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    On the contrary, I don't think you will have the pleasure.
    To all of us, that despised so much, what euroleague has evolved into (do mind, that in case they would propose this licencing straight away in 2000, when divorcing Fiba, they would too get burned to the ground), it has finaly come to the last battle. Winner takes it all. Do not let yourself believe for one second, that the outcome won't have big consequences on euroleague.

    SEOK, Terrorizer, EverGreen, Jon_Koncak, Picek... and hordes of others that aren't lurking these boards anymore (go wonder why *cough), or just occasionaly drop by at eurobasket times, PAOK, Aris, Aek, Hapoel TA and numerous other fans that might come across these boards by accident after 15 years... open a beer, today we drink to a start towards an end of this idiocracy, called euroleague. Cheers!
    Financial markets don't share your "optimism". https://www.google.com/search?q=juve...&client=safari
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Financial markets don't share your "optimism". https://www.google.com/search?q=juve...&client=safari
    Than put your money where your mouth is. Juventus revenues were reportedly 188 M in 2019, with the supposed +300 M from the superleague they should improve their P/E notably and P/S by 150%. If you strongly believe in the succes of the superleague you still got yourself a very nice premium there with the share price going up from 0,77 to just 0,89, not even reaching the annual high of 1,05...
    In fact the dynamics behind that share price don't have as strong preferences regarding the outcome as we do, so it will eventually be a good indicator how thing are looking...
    Last edited by Joško Poljak Fan; 04-20-2021 at 07:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    Than put your money where your mouth is. Juventus revenues were reportedly 188 M in 2019, with the supposed +300 M from the superleague they should improve their P/E notably and P/S by 150%. If you strongly believe in the succes of the superleague you still got yourself a very nice premium there with the share price going up from 0,77 to just 0,89, not even reaching the annual high of 1,05...
    In fact the dynamics behind that share price don't have as strong preferences regarding the outcome as we do, so it will eventually be a good indicator how thing are looking...
    I do that for my living so I for sure won't take any unnecessary risks, especially not after jump like that. Spike of price indicated what first reaction of market was. It was very positive and it for sure wasn't what you're indicating. The problem I see with this stock is, that there's no real timetable, when this super league will start. So violative trading is to be expected.

    Ceferin&Co. have 1 huge problem. All their threats, if executed, will hit them harder than clubs in Super league and on top of that they will end in court with strong possibility of losing lawsuits. Do you really believe that Ceferin is fighting for football? It's about billions they're losing. Ceferin cannot do shit, the only one, who could have influence on this fight are fans. If they could somehow stood together and boycotted Super league, things might change. But that would be something totally unprecedented in sports history.

    I don't support Super league, but I don't support those archaic organisations like UEFA or FIFA either. Ceferin acting like it was total surprise is total bullshit. They just weren't able to make a deal, which could satisfy both sides.
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-20-2021 at 08:15 AM.
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    Okay, fair enough. It does sound unlikely to expect this new league would start in august already. I'm still convienced it should be a nice deal and that uncertanty along with fan reaction in UK, partialy Germany and France is contributing to meagre increase of share price.

    Whole situation will hit everyone very hard. In basketball it was a disaster, that might have set the sport back for a decade or even more. I think most of the commentators of current football happenings aren't aware of where was european basketball in let's say 1995-2000 and how low it dropped in 2005-2010 f.e.

    I don't expect UEFA to fight only for football, of course they will fight for money as well, but don't think that's the only reason. Small teams will fight for the pride first and they will fight emotionaly and hard. People do believe in pure sport essence, that being the best has to be prooved on court/field and majority of those won't be willing to change minds easily. The super league means changing the whole european sports culture... untill august!? that sure as hell doesn't sound too plausible...
    Euroleague at least took it's time and waited for 10 years with changes, in that period the opposition was weakened to the extent it couldn't do much about it.

    I understand the financial aspect behind it, with covid hitting the balance sheets, it's a move every manager would consider/do. And considering the american professional sports and they way things run there, I sure as hell understand the JP Morgan investment. But it smells a bit as a cognitive bias, while completely viable for a CEO or CFO, a complete nightmare for marketing and sales, as if they didn't really get a say in it.

    You don't have to be a fan of UEFA, superleague, euroleague of Fiba, none of those are perfect, none of those are the ultimate villain. It's about meritocracy vs.aristocracy. About prooving you deserve to play in the best european club competition, vs. getting the place due to your surname... (trying my best not to actually sound woke).

    And that is the reason why it will take much more than just great financial backing for superleague to succeed. The backlash will spread and could hit euroleague on it's way. Definately Fiba will ride this wave as hard as they can. Last but not least, the decision could even be a political one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    Problem for UEFA, like it was for FIBA 20 years ago, is being too big, too bureaucratic organisation. You have to be able to react much quicker nowadays. What is this new proposal for 2024? It's like EU needing 5 years to decide about summer time. We can say many things about Americans, but they're still light years in front of Europe, when it comes to businesses. Football was hit hard by Covid, you cannot wait 3 years to do something. Imho Fiba's inactivety was the main reason for breakdown 20 years ago in basketball and we can see similar pattern here. Big clubs having big debts put this plan in motion for sure, but on other hand UEFA could/should do more. Watching Ceferin praising how good work are they doing in last year was just funny knowing in what kind of problems football really is. Saying how everything is about greed, when clubs are billions under water is kinda strange. It's only survival mode for those big clubs, not much to lose.

    UEFA is getting around 2/3 of it's income from Champions league. Super league is more or less game over for UEFA as it is, so fight will be fierce for sure. If they decide for drastic measures, which I still believe they won't, it might put football 20 years back.
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-20-2021 at 10:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    It's like EU needing 5 years to decide about summer time
    Did Earth started rotating differently? Or human cycles mutated? I totally missed that change that required urgent action

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