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Thread: 7 EL clubs met privately, concerned with financial affairs managed by Bertomeu & EL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    How it is possible to believe in FIBA when they tried to fight ULEB back in 00s only till the day they were promised to be paid some sum annually by ULEB, and the fight was over...
    It's over?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    In 2018 the European Commission proposed a new draft directive to end the seasonal time change across the EU. And you can be sure that was done after numerous studies and surveys. Countries will alone decide on which time they will stay permanently. It's just about not changing it twice a year.

    Idea of Super league is almost 10 years old, that's why I'm saying Ceferin is just acting to be surprised. The difference is that you have clubs with near or more than 1 billion of debt now. Covid made financial problems much worse.
    So is it normal to talk 12 years about SL that falls apart in 24 hours? Great planning by people that know what they're doing. Also plans to start SL exactly in 2021 were well under long before pandemic, so it's role in this announcement is minimal if any

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuDux View Post
    So is it normal to talk 12 years about SL that falls apart in 24 hours? Great planning by people that know what they're doing. Also plans to start SL exactly in 2021 were well under long before pandemic, so it's role in this announcement is minimal if any
    I honestly don't understand what are you arguing about? My comment was how inefficient and bureaucratic EU is. It's not about, if whole Europe will have summer or winter time, it's free decision for every country to do whatever they find better. It's only about, if they will change time twice a year or not. If they cannot decide on that, you shouldn't be surprised, if they cannot decide on much more important matters.

    Super league is about controlling billions of dollars, that couldn't go without a war no matter what. They tried and lost. Do you believe that Uefa reaction would have been different next year? Clubs from top to bottom are in deep shit because of Covid. Not only income, transfers are way down and that has influence on everyone.

    Edit: Ok, I see you just quoted my post and didn't comment EU specifically. Sorry.
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    If Stanković was incompetent, that means every succesor will be the same untill the end of time?
    Could we say that Fiba isn't without a sin and that likewise euroleague is just a playground for what is best for 6 out of 11 (or is it 7 out of 13) of it's licence holders, which likely might not coincide with what's best for sport?
    And don't get me wrong Bob, I am no fan of Čeferin and his meddling in politics either. I will support him for his stance again super league and criticize him for his colour blindness in regards to other things.

    The battle that Uleb has won in 2000 was something completely different. But Uleb winning in 2000, by no means justifies what euroleague has become in 2020. A coup against a dictator (fiba in 90ies) has evolved into a new dictatorship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    I honestly don't understand what are you arguing about? My comment was how inefficient and bureaucratic EU is. It's not about, if whole Europe will have summer or winter time, it's free decision for every country to do whatever they find better. It's only about, if they will change time twice a year or not. If they cannot decide on that, you shouldn't be surprised, if they cannot decide on much more important matters.

    Super league is about controlling billions of dollars, that couldn't go without a war no matter what. They tried and lost. Do you believe that Uefa reaction would have been different next year? Clubs from top to bottom are in deep shit because of Covid. Not only income, transfers are way down and that has influence on everyone.

    Edit: Ok, I see you just quoted my post and didn't comment EU specifically. Sorry.
    My point was that EU beurocracy performed difficult task without glitch as far as I know, while wise old men worked on something 12 years and it fell apart in 24 hours. I'm not saying that beurocracy always better than "oligarchs" or "invisible hand" or whatever, but in this case it was.

    If it's free decision then why nobody abbandoned it? Also EU wasn't slow, it was too fast
    Under the proposal, member countries were expected to decide by 31 March 2019 which time they would observe year round. This was however considered a fairly tight timescale by many.[13][14] The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, which coordinates changes to the time zone database used by most computers and smartphones, notes that "With less than a year's notice there is a good chance that some computer-based clocks will operate incorrectly after the change, due to delays in propagating updates to software and data."[15] The airline industry points out the complexity of revising all airline schedules, particularly in terms of ensuring slot availability on flights outside the EU, and recommends keeping the status quo or deferring the change until at least 2021.[16] An informal meeting of EU transport ministers on 29 October 2018 suggested that many member states would not support the "unrealistic" timetable and that implementation could be pushed back to 2021.[14]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    If Stanković was incompetent, that means every succesor will be the same untill the end of time?
    Could we say that Fiba isn't without a sin and that likewise euroleague is just a playground for what is best for 6 out of 11 (or is it 7 out of 13) of it's licence holders, which likely might not coincide with what's best for sport?
    And don't get me wrong Bob, I am no fan of Čeferin and his meddling in politics either. I will support him for his stance again super league and criticize him for his colour blindness in regards to other things.

    The battle that Uleb has won in 2000 was something completely different. But Uleb winning in 2000, by no means justifies what euroleague has become in 2020. A coup against a dictator (fiba in 90ies) has evolved into a new dictatorship.
    My problem is that I haven't seen any plausible program what happens after Euroleague is dismantled. My logic is saying that big clubs would all lesser their budget considerably. You're saying that will be countered by smaller clubs having bigger interest. But to make that work you still need competition, which will bring a lot more interest from public and generating a lot more money. How realistic is that, having in mind that Fiba will have everything in their hands again?
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-22-2021 at 01:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    My problem is that I haven't seen any plausible program what happens after Euroleague is dismantled. My logic is saying that big clubs would all lesser their budget considerably. You're saying that will be countered by smaller clubs having bigger interest. But to make that work you still need competition, which will bring a lot more interest from public and generating a lot more money. How realistic is that, having in mind that Fiba will have everything in their hands again?
    The current euroleague participants would likely decrease their budgets, true.

    I don't see that as an issue. In fact the EL system has encouraged some of their participants to overspend and I am not sure to what goal, apart from the prestige. Eventually teams with a core of very invested fans and a good share of tickets revenue in their budget, would again head towards some (just; imo) advantage. Namely, the likes of Žalgiris, Bayern, Maccabi, Panathinaikos, Baskonia from EL and some more from lower levels, that have healthy aproach to growth.
    In my opinion overspending of some teams is also the reason of a slow organic growth of the league in general, making futile whatever non-over-spenders do to try to close the gap, since the difference is way to big, while also being created outside of how well the bball club is doing bussines. Overspending some 10, 20 % seems reasonable, but with 50+% that's creating a gap that isn't healthy or reasonable. In a closed enviroment with numerous games that are established in order to "protect" these investments, chances to move up or down the ladder aren't big.
    That makes me wonder: when was the last time a true euphoria occured within euroleague fan bases and how many of those were there in the last decade? That's like tickets being sold out within few minutes, all the talk in the city being focused on the next game etc. Compared to Aris in 80ies, Žalgiris with the title, Virtus-Fortitudo duels, Partizan in 92', Olimpija in 97-00, Maccabi in 04' and Sharp's threepointer, Olympiacos with Rivers and Panathinaikos with Bodiroga. And numerous smaller ones, I might not be aware of, or forgot about them.
    That's the enviroment that generates sales, be it merchandise, tickets or eventualy TV revenue.

    It's been a while since I made a detailed comparison in F4 appearances... in 90ies, 00ies and start of 10ies, sure some might say that there should be fair sporting criteria by which the best team qualifies to the F4, while most marketing guys would prefer some level of uncertanty, as in the 90ies, more evenly spreading those F4 appearances through more teams.
    A (very) quick look:
    90ies F4 appearances 4x Barca, 3x Oly, Pao,2x Split, Benneton, Limoges, Partizan
    00-09: 8x CSKA, 7x Maccabi, 6x Pao, 4x Baskonia, 3x Barca...12x all the rest
    10-19: 9x CSKA, 7x Real, 5x Oly, 4x Barca, Fener... 11x all the rest

    Euroleague's goal should be that participating in it shouldn't be taken for granted, but some sort of an achievement instead. You probably remember Olimpija fans in 00-10, no matter the results, we were there and fans took it for granted. That's not the enthusiasm that sells anything, quite the opposite. I believe the same could be happening right now with euroleague teams that stayed in for too long, appreciating it about as much.
    I believe there is a number of teams that could step in instead of some "old powers" and succesfully make up for those. The likes of Virtus, AEK, Hapoel, different French teams such as Strasbourg, numerous Spanish, Turkish teams. Adding different fanbases and potentialy contributing to euroleague increasing it's relatively narrow reach.


    The guys I used to play recreational basketball with, were a pretty good eye opener for me. Apart from (obviously) Olimpija and national team, they discussed NBA a lot, march/april was really informative about which NCAA team to watch, some ABA talks and of course at the times of eurobasket they have seen as many games as their wifes and kids would allow it Of course they considered Slovenian national championship as basicaly irrelevant. However they still ended up watching those games and ... year after year paying attention if anyone has anything to say about the euroleague, it seemed that those about 15 guys, basketball wise pretty fanatical and relatively well educated about it, altogether watched maybee 10 games of euroleague per season. That's way less euroleague games seen on TV than overall bball games they attended through season. If they're not the target audience, who is?

    That makes me believe interest in euroleague isn't particulary great now, to begin with and it's not as if we are talking some huge shock therapy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    The current euroleague participants would likely decrease their budgets, true.

    I don't see that as an issue. In fact the EL system has encouraged some of their participants to overspend and I am not sure to what goal, apart from the prestige. Eventually teams with a core of very invested fans and a good share of tickets revenue in their budget, would again head towards some (just; imo) advantage. Namely, the likes of Žalgiris, Bayern, Maccabi, Panathinaikos, Baskonia from EL and some more from lower levels, that have healthy aproach to growth.
    In my opinion overspending of some teams is also the reason of a slow organic growth of the league in general, making futile whatever non-over-spenders do to try to close the gap, since the difference is way to big, while also being created outside of how well the bball club is doing bussines. Overspending some 10, 20 % seems reasonable, but with 50+% that's creating a gap that isn't healthy or reasonable. In a closed enviroment with numerous games that are established in order to "protect" these investments, chances to move up or down the ladder aren't big.
    That makes me wonder: when was the last time a true euphoria occured within euroleague fan bases and how many of those were there in the last decade? That's like tickets being sold out within few minutes, all the talk in the city being focused on the next game etc. Compared to Aris in 80ies, Žalgiris with the title, Virtus-Fortitudo duels, Partizan in 92', Olimpija in 97-00, Maccabi in 04' and Sharp's threepointer, Olympiacos with Rivers and Panathinaikos with Bodiroga. And numerous smaller ones, I might not be aware of, or forgot about them.
    That's the enviroment that generates sales, be it merchandise, tickets or eventualy TV revenue.

    It's been a while since I made a detailed comparison in F4 appearances... in 90ies, 00ies and start of 10ies, sure some might say that there should be fair sporting criteria by which the best team qualifies to the F4, while most marketing guys would prefer some level of uncertanty, as in the 90ies, more evenly spreading those F4 appearances through more teams.
    A (very) quick look:
    90ies F4 appearances 4x Barca, 3x Oly, Pao,2x Split, Benneton, Limoges, Partizan
    00-09: 8x CSKA, 7x Maccabi, 6x Pao, 4x Baskonia, 3x Barca...12x all the rest
    10-19: 9x CSKA, 7x Real, 5x Oly, 4x Barca, Fener... 11x all the rest

    Euroleague's goal should be that participating in it shouldn't be taken for granted, but some sort of an achievement instead. You probably remember Olimpija fans in 00-10, no matter the results, we were there and fans took it for granted. That's not the enthusiasm that sells anything, quite the opposite. I believe the same could be happening right now with euroleague teams that stayed in for too long, appreciating it about as much.
    I believe there is a number of teams that could step in instead of some "old powers" and succesfully make up for those. The likes of Virtus, AEK, Hapoel, different French teams such as Strasbourg, numerous Spanish, Turkish teams. Adding different fanbases and potentialy contributing to euroleague increasing it's relatively narrow reach.


    The guys I used to play recreational basketball with, were a pretty good eye opener for me. Apart from (obviously) Olimpija and national team, they discussed NBA a lot, march/april was really informative about which NCAA team to watch, some ABA talks and of course at the times of eurobasket they have seen as many games as their wifes and kids would allow it Of course they considered Slovenian national championship as basicaly irrelevant. However they still ended up watching those games and ... year after year paying attention if anyone has anything to say about the euroleague, it seemed that those about 15 guys, basketball wise pretty fanatical and relatively well educated about it, altogether watched maybee 10 games of euroleague per season. That's way less euroleague games seen on TV than overall bball games they attended through season. If they're not the target audience, who is?

    That makes me believe interest in euroleague isn't particulary great now, to begin with and it's not as if we are talking some huge shock therapy.
    I don't believe comparing past to now is relevant. When I was going to school, basketball was in my environment (Siska) sport #1. We were basically playing only basketball, football was seen as sport for others. We spent every afternoon in Ilirija. Nowadays, kids are playing/training mostly only football. Nobody is watching any kind of basketball on TV, Luka and big NT competitions, the only exception. Football has won, sadly but true.

    The other difference between those times and nowadays is quality of basketball in Europe. You had the best players from Europe playing in Europe back then, many fantastic South Americans and even some very decent ex NBA players. Now the best players are Mirotic, Larkin, Vesely, Nando...Solid players but they cannot be face of the league, you won't bring younger population to watch them. There's no charisma around them.

    Popularity of basketball is down and quality of players is down. Not much to do. With lower budgets, you might lose even players like Larkin, Mirotic...which is not exactly devastating, but not helping for sure. And then you have ageing problem. Numerous of stars getting old. Who will replace Nando, Chacho, Llull, Teo, Calathes, Printezis, Spanoulis...?There were always young kids behind stars in the past, now those players are in Nba.

    World is changing. Even football has some problems with viewers, Nba is down too. Those new generations want something different, more exciting, faster...I don't see basketball in Europe providing that, no matter what.
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-23-2021 at 02:41 PM.
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    https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footb...crisy-23955747

    I believe writter explains very well what is all about. Ceferin has replaced Agnelli with Al-Khelaifi. President of a club, who is constantly breaching financial FairPlay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    I don't believe comparing past to now is relevant. When I was going to school, basketball was in my environment (Siska) sport #1. We were basically playing only basketball, football was seen as sport for others. We spent every afternoon in Ilirija. Nowadays, kids are playing/training mostly only football. Nobody is watching any kind of basketball on TV, Luka and big NT competitions, the only exception. Football has won, sadly but true.

    The other difference between those times and nowadays is quality of basketball in Europe. You had the best players from Europe playing in Europe back then, many fantastic South Americans and even some very decent ex NBA players. Now the best players are Mirotic, Larkin, Vesely, Nando...Solid players but they cannot be face of the league, you won't bring younger population to watch them. There's no charisma around them.

    Popularity of basketball is down and quality of players is down. Not much to do. With lower budgets, you might lose even players like Larkin, Mirotic...which is not exactly devastating, but not helping for sure. And then you have ageing problem. Numerous of stars getting old. Who will replace Nando, Chacho, Llull, Teo, Calathes, Printezis, Spanoulis...?There were always young kids behind stars in the past, now those players are in Nba.

    World is changing. Even football has some problems with viewers, Nba is down too. Those new generations want something different, more exciting, faster...I don't see basketball in Europe providing that, no matter what.
    Kids aren't playing half as much (or more) bball as we used to. That's no news. However even if the same euphoria isn't repeatable since times changed, even a package of smaller euphorias through europe would do more for european basketball than some London based team. That is how football grew to where it is right now. Even if the situation really changed and rising the same way is not repeatable, I am wholly convienced a lot of teams and their fanbases could revive if given a chance.

    I agree that it will be hard for euroleague to buid their own stars system, especialy now when euro and NBA game is interchangeable. And a closed league kind of needs such sysstem to market itself. That is why I am in favour of a competition system based on fan-allegiance instead of stars. You might be right and those days of local-nationalism are off, but I consider it still more likely to get some fanbase of 2,3,4 millions enthusiastic about their team in euroleague, than making a big name player, keeping him in europe and market the sh*t out of him.

    We can disagree on what's the optimal way to develop european basketball, however there are some cold hard facts, that are really hard to ignore. If stars would be the only way to develop the sport, than hockey in europe would be f*cked. On the opposite, it's not.
    1. Who is the best ice hockey player in Swiss national league and 2. how much does that league receive in terms of TV revenue?
    1. No idea whatsoever 2. iirc 30 M CHF per year = almost as much as euroleague is able to earn in the whole european market for arguably the 2nd most popular sport.
    It might be that Swiss younger population isn't all that keen on Zurich - Bern rivalry, but I would dare saying "case closed" anyway, since obviously enough people are in order for TV to pay that money...

    I would approach the problem of young players with a bit different angle; investments in good youth programs are very few in europe and compared to 20 years ago those got additionaly centralised to fewer clubs. We do not have the NCAA to take care of it, so unless the whole pyramid is taken care of, there is no system which can supply euroleague with players. That's why you just don't strangle the feeders, the way euroleague did...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    And I telling you all production is going in Nba and not only that, they go there as teenagers. Maledon, Avdija, Poku, Hayes are not even good enough to have important role in Euroleague and they all went in Nba last year. Before players made a career in Europe and only then they went.
    So you're paying money to watch Giannis, Jokic and Doncic murder Poku and Avdija?

    If european teenagers of average talent can get NBA contracts, that tells me that the level of quality is much closer than before, it's just a matter of view point whether you consider it adequate or poor across leagues. Many old heads will say that basketball is far worse now than it was in past years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Cool, but we're talking here why Euroleague has problems with marketing. All the best football players are playing in Europe. All the most talented kids, who are not bigger than 2 meters are playing football. Normally that people are watching football.
    Btw. players you have named are prime example of mediocrity. Do you remember when we have been watching players like Drazen, Sabonis, Bodiroga, Kukoc, Gallis, Marciulonis...Or some real Nba players like Bob McAdoo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorizer View Post
    Well, that's a good news because any dissent and turmoil in Turkish Airlines IMG 7Days Jordileague means more chances for more just, more progressive and, yes, more profittable basketball system to prosper in Europe.


    Slave-like mentality like this is the root of the problem. I'm not a fan of Vesely (though he is a solid player) yet Larkin is a helluva player who will score 25+ per game with ease in the sloppy European club basketball of the late 90s - early 2000s and Micic is a great PG (and I said this even when he struggled mightily in Bayern). And how good would some late 90s Euroleague MVP like Rebraca fare in realities of today's European basketball? Most probably, in the case of Rebraca at the very best he would play a role simlar to someone like Tibor Pleiss (and he'll be absolutely destroyed by players like Tavares). Well, I'm not quite sure even about that since Pleiss at least has a decent shooting mechanics.

    I'm not saying that 90s - early 00s basketball sucked hard, these were exciting times with many great players and some very interesting teams. For example, France NT has one of their smartest and most exciting core of players in Rigaudeau-Mous Sonko-Risacher-Digbeu. And I suspect that numerous stars of that generation would adapt to modern basketball demands just fine, were they born - and evolve - later, yet this stuff is an alternative history, so there's a little sense in it. Yet if we drop those guys - in a shape they were in their prime - onto European basketball courts of today, they'll fail resoundingly. And that's much less of an alternative history.

    Basketball has changed, the demands for playing on the highest professional level have changed - and they've gone significantly up. In fact, we don't see that many European mega-stars exactly because the game has changed a lot. The sloppier the overall level, the mightier the leading guys seem. Players with Shved sort of role and mentality are thankfully a rarity these days (so Khimki was really unlucky to land exactly this sort of calamity of a player), yet they were much more common during earlier, less developed stages of Eurobball. A guy like Ibrahim Kutluay dropped 20+ seasons in Europe left and right back in the 90s. With all due respect, there is a zero chance to repeat such a feat these days for a player like Ibby. And 40 y.o. injury-plagued Sabas became a dominating center in EL (and overall regular season MVP) back in 2004. Let's see how 40 y.o. injury-plagued Pau will do in today's Euroleague.
    Killer Bob destroyed by facts and logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    So you're paying money to watch Giannis, Jokic and Doncic murder Poku and Avdija?

    If european teenagers of average talent can get NBA contracts, that tells me that the level of quality is much closer than before, it's just a matter of view point whether you consider it adequate or poor across leagues. Many old heads will say that basketball is far worse now than it was in past years.
    It's 82 games season with 30 teams. I'm sure you can find solid game to watch every night, if you want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Killer Bob destroyed by facts and logic.
    Yes comparing sportsmans between decades in any sports have a lot of sense. Tell me how many goals, would have Pele scored in modern football?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Yes comparing sportsmans between decades in any sports have a lot of sense. Tell me how many goals, would have Pele scored in modern football?
    It's not just about athletes becoming physically better. You're saying 'oh, the best European players all played in Europe back then, how nice" and you don't mention that the best European players now are in places 1,2 and 3 for the NBA MVP award.
    How did Galis and Kukoc compare to Jordan or Hakeem? Yet you're saying it was more fun to watch Galis, Kukoc and the mostly scrawny/overweight, pretty much talentless teammates of theirs.

    Talent production in Europe has gone UP by a gigantic amount, to the point where the best european players are the best world players and average European players can easily get NBA contracts, something that 30 years ago could only have happened for the Drazens of this world.
    We are at a point where even poor European players like Bender or Ntilikina can stay in the NBA for years.

    That doesn't show that there is a lack of talent production in Europe, it shows the opposite.

    It's 82 games season with 30 teams. I'm sure you can find solid game to watch every night, if you want.
    Last full regular season game I watched was a Mavs-Lakers game a couple years back. I remember being excited about as it was early on a Sunday but it was completely unwatchable.
    I've seen parts of other games since then and my conclusion is the same, hats off to whomever can watch a game 90% filled with 10-second posssesions but to me it's hilariously bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    It's not just about athletes becoming physically better. You're saying 'oh, the best European players all played in Europe back then, how nice" and you don't mention that the best European players now are in places 1,2 and 3 for the NBA MVP award.
    How did Galis and Kukoc compare to Jordan or Hakeem? Yet you're saying it was more fun to watch Galis, Kukoc and the mostly scrawny/overweight, pretty much talentless teammates of theirs.

    Talent production in Europe has gone UP by a gigantic amount, to the point where the best european players are the best world players and average European players can easily get NBA contracts, something that 30 years ago could only have happened for the Drazens of this world.
    We are at a point where even poor European players like Bender or Ntilikina can stay in the NBA for years.

    That doesn't show that there is a lack of talent production in Europe, it shows the opposite.


    Last full regular season game I watched was a Mavs-Lakers game a couple years back. I remember being excited about as it was early on a Sunday but it was completely unwatchable.
    I've seen parts of other games since then and my conclusion is the same, hats off to whomever can watch a game 90% filled with 10-second posssesions but to me it's hilariously bad.
    And where are playing those stars? Not in Europe for sure. How many years Drazen and Sabonis would have played in Europe, if they were born in 90s? 1? My point was that all the best played in Europe till their prime or even the whole career. And now? Garuba had great game yesterday, and he might played only 1 more game in Euroleague. Just wait few more years, when Nando&co. retire and players like Loyd dominates in Europe, if they don't get contract in Nba.
    You might not like watching Jokic, Doncic, Giannis...and I for sure don't care how random Americans look on the court in Europe.
    previously known as Beno

  18. #98
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    I don't know if you bother reading comments, you certainly don't bother understanding them.

    You might not like watching Jokic, Doncic, Giannis...and I for sure don't care how random Americans look on the court in Europe.
    I'm sorry but I just don't see the world through a racial/nationalist lense.

  19. #99
    Senior Member drskull's Avatar
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    I would not take it as a "racial" comment. no matter how good an american player is %90 of them don't get the rivalry and sense of belonging in europe. they see all this as a pit stop. I d see a european player (preferably turkish) in my teams jersey rather than an american. cos they get it.

    most european players will come back. nando has returned to europe for instance. vesely, mirotic...melli might return sometime soon. so I dont see players like loyd dominating. not every european prospect or star thrives in nba. finally I don't even see likes of giannis or dirk as european players. there will always be players like nando&co. I don't agree with that european basketball is doomed arguement. it is not 90s anymore, we dont have domestic stars here for a long time. we are used to it by now. yet players like bogdan, delaying that nba transition are a rarity.
    sex, droga i bodiroga.

  20. #100
    Senior Member Jazz's Avatar
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    A bit of a side issue but I always admired Euro fans who consistently stay up late to watch their favourite player or team. But I've always thought with so many regular season fixtures, how a fan of an NBA team could be overly invested in the outcome of any single game. Sometimes they play again the very next night. I know there's avid MLB fans in Europe too, and they play even more games than in basketball. I understand wanting to watch favourite players and preferably watching them live, even if it is late, but don't know how they'd get so hyped up each night.

    I know we have this debate too over Euroleague and games having less intensity or interest due to the increased volume of games, but at least for most of us there is no sleep deprivation involved in watching them.

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