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Thread: Lithuania in Eurobasket 2022

  1. #161
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    That's list without foreigners and Zalgiris players. Overall Gailius is 8th and Lukauskis 17th. The horror!

    I'm pretty sure Girdziunas and Williams always started at PG, not that I can prove it easily now that starters data disapeared from LKL website

  2. #162
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuDux View Post
    That's list without foreigners and Zalgiris players. Overall Gailius is 8th and Lukauskis 17th. The horror!
    I understand that is was without foreigners,but when we try to find lkl players that maybe could help NT in window games there is nothing there to choose from.

    Only few Rytas players ... all other top 25 ltu players plays not in lkl. ( i dont count zalgiris as lkl team)

    One good young prospect that looking prommising this season is Sargiunas so far.

    When 42 basketball old men outscoring lkl young fellas i cant take them seriuosly as real prospects sorry.

    Real long time NT members at age of 20-22 was showing real results on lkl levels.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    neither Curry neither Lillard are pure PG. How they playing game of basketball thats closer to Sg . Look at Warriors/Blazers games they arent even bringing the ball half of the time. Draymong always leading warriors team in asisists.

    Lillard in Olympics wasnt looking like Pg at all. He was just shooting but wasnt creating. Give ball to Durant near 3 point line and get out of his way that not playmaking

    L.James and J.Harden is more real PG how they play than Curry or Lillard or Irving.

    They are like Lekavicius size is pg,but playing style like SG. Today in positional basketball diffrence between PG and SG is getting less and less.

    Velicka is closer to Lukas than to Kalnietis or Jasikevicius by playing style.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 10-12-2021 at 05:17 PM.

  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Velicka is closer to Lukas than to Kalnietis or Jasikevicius by playing style.
    You are wrong on this one. He was treated as one of the biggest p'n'r masters at the age 16-17 (No1 in assists in U17WC, U18EB tournaments and never lower than 3rd overall in all tournaments he played and his teams were sucessful). He was dominating some games assisting wise, providing a hustle, defence in some games barely scoring the ball. To compare him with Lekavicius (2.9as as his youth level record) who could never properly pass anything except a kickout is inedequate. Velicka passing skills translates PRO, 5.6as in 27min playing in Bundeslliga as 21yo is a good result. I've seen him playing enough in French, Germany and Italy. He can play at the point and it would be huge question whenever Kalnietis was up to Velicka's level passing wise at this age, I doubt. You simply have wrong perception in your mind about Velicka. Lekavicius simply can't make some of the passes like long cross court passes, baseball passes, overhead passes and off course p'n'r passes as Velicka is capable. The reason why I prioritize both Jokubaitis and Marciulionis in terms of passing is their more consistent decision making, game reading, but Velicka has all tools to be high level facilitator, at least Kalnietis' level without ant doubt.

    To put Kalnietis and Jasikevicius in one sentence is wrong though.

    Just watch this one alone carefully to make proper impression about Velicka's passing upside:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQwj...nel=Eurospects
    Last edited by Straight forward; 10-12-2021 at 06:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Marciulionis son will be bust like first Sabonis son

  5. #165

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    It's time to talk about the shift which recently happened and Lith basketball community didn't realize yet. It's the decline of 3 position. When we look at our biggest competitors, Serbia has insanely deep 3 position with Lucic, Kalinic, upcoming unique Pokusevski or super talented Nakic (Serbia is super stacked in all positions except 1 TBF), France has Batum, Cabarrot, the same Yabusele can play 3, or even Fournier, Spain has Hernagomez bro, Claver, Abrines, Abalde. The thing is that we can't match this with our Ulanovas, Kuzminskas, Butkevicius. We ain't competing with this line-up, specially with recent Ulanovas and Kuzminskas decline (OK, Ulanovas may bounch back, get in shape, but we can obviously see that some-one like Kalinic can eat Ulanovas alive). Position 3, ever since 2017, has been on a decline. When the most ready and ATM best 3 is Butkevicius...Houston, we have a problem! We talk about position 4, but the way I see it we may have the bigger problem at 3. Literally playing against best Euro teams we have a hole at 3 compared to what those teams have (specially Serbia, France). We see that Kuz is done. Ulanovas is also very limited. Butkevicius is more of a personification of the crisis (a guy who could never make it in EL, suddenly our best option..). It is essentially important what are we getting NEW in few years, what such players as Sedekerskis, Kulboka, Brazdeikis, Sirvydis can bring. We need an upgrade and soon because our 3 position becoming not a competition for top teams. The good news is that at least defensively I know that Sedekerskis can be thrown on such beasts as Kalinic, Batum and so on. But we also need offense. However you look, today Ule, Kuz, Butke are very limited offensive players.

    Now I argue that even in 2022 our 3 position may be the weakest link, weaker than 4. I project that this season Tubelis will disperse any doubts about his level as he will totally dominate NCAA and we'll have an ALL STAR Sabonis and upcoming FIBA star Tubelis at 4. These should be treated as "nominal" (even if their not per se) pieces at 4 and it's surely better than some duo of Ulanovas, Butkevicius. The good news only is that wings as Sedekerskis, Kulboka can be moved 3-4 and this might give is some flexibility (specially, I have no doubts about Sedekerskis defensive impact) and it will allow us to stop the bleeding partially. But we need an upgrade and soon. It's so utopian to think that we actually can win something while having obvious positional disadvantages compared to best teams. "Oh, realistically we have inferior 2,3,4 positions, but we have such a good centers and 1992 generation in prime...". Good luck with that, LOL. We seen the outcome of positional disadvantage Doncic vs Butkevicius (and all others who tried). It's deadly.

    So far Kuz barely playing in EL and here's comparison between Ulanovas and Sedekerskis:

    Sedekerskis 20min, 6.8pts, (90%/33%...no FT shot), 11ef
    Ulanovas 27min, 5,7pts (20/30/20), 1,7ef
    Last edited by Straight forward; 10-15-2021 at 12:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Marciulionis son will be bust like first Sabonis son

  6. #166
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    One more TF fantasy rant is no stubborn and not seeing big picture im not even try to argue that. He is putting same names for like 4 years and we will do that for 2-3 and eventually some of those names will be ready to play well for NT.

    And no PF is by far our weakest position is not even close. IN SF atleast we have what to put there.

    IN PF we simply putting centers and SF position players because no high quality level to put.Thats when you know its really bad situation at that position.

    about pure pg and conmbo guard discusion. You dont need to show me 4 years old video from kids tournamets im saying what i seeing in men level.

    From what i saw in men level Velicka is more combo . His mindset is how beat my men 1 vs 1,not how to put my teammates in right position for them to score.

    Thats where main diffrence is between pure pg and combo guard.

    We cant judge asists numbers if one guard plays 20-22min and other doominates the ball for 35min like Velicka was doing in kids tournaments.

    Westbrook is also always top 5 in assists when he played 42min and dominates the ball all the time.Is he true pg ? no.

  7. #167

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    I think you didn't see enough of Velicka at PRO level (I have feeling all you have it's Velicka in FIBA windows which is nothing and if that's truth you're aiming for Hepcat's level at his point). I'm not saying that he's freakin' CP3, Simmons or Rondo, but you overemphasize his EGO and imagine him as some nutcase ISO scorer. Look how he presented him self in SL "I like to involve others", and he was so hesitant to look for his own shot, Jokubaitis looked like 10 times more Westbrookish than Velicka Second, you underrate Velicka's organizational and passing skills. Watch him actually play in the club. He'll surely get there, he'll be truth PG and likely a starter for EL team. Again, 5.6as in 27min in Europe is really good number (last season), this season 4as in 22min.

    U20 Velicka 28min, 6.6as
    U19 Jokubaitis 26min, 5.6as

    Even in FIBA windows, he was delivering 3.5as in 15.5min against Belgium and Denmark.

    When you stick with some false narrative in your head you tend to go till the end no-matter facts.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 10-15-2021 at 05:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Marciulionis son will be bust like first Sabonis son

  8. #168
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Comparing at this point Jokubaitis Barcelona guard with 2 level tier teams guard Velicka is like comparing neptunas with zalgiris players stats in lkl.

    In fiba combine 2 games stats doesnt show picture from Czech 20 pts diffrent game,real game was versus Denmark and there he was tottaly lost .

    I saw enough highlights and enough stats with Velicka 30min games with 13-14 taken shots and only 4-5 asists that not how real pg is playing (that combo style) and his team loosing everywhere in men level to this point. At it was atleats in 4 diffrent clubs.

    If Velicka didnt get 30min playing time he run away.From Barcelona youth team and French team .

    To this point i got such impression Velicka doesnt care about team results ,only about how to get his. Thats not PG mindset,that combo guard mindset.

    No i can imagine why only 6month diffrence between Jokubaitis and Velicka and they never played together in kids tournaments. Most likely Velicka said to coaches if im not getting 30min im not comming. At that point Velicka was bigger prospect.

    Going just on asisist like you do fun fact for you : Kalnietis made more assists in NT in 15 years streach than Jasikevicius in his 15 years with less played games too.

    Doesnt it make him better pg or better floor general ? ofcourse not.

    And still dont get why you writing 4 years old stats from kids tournament whem in talking about men level.

    if my narrative is wrong tell me in last 3 seasons in men level which Velicka team won atleast 50% of games?

    When pg plays 30min and shoots more shots that his teams SG yeah i have a problem calling such PG real PG.

    Im calling such guard combo. Like Lillards and Irvings of the world.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 10-16-2021 at 07:13 AM.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    comparing Sedekerskis stats with Ulanovas after 3 games is juts funny especially after Sedekerskis career high. Why dont you just compare round 3 games and make argument who is better after one game? it would look even more convincing.

    Sedekerskis have same offensive limitations as Ulanovas and Butkevicius and still dont changed my mind i want all 3 on our NT final roster.

    I already understood that you dont look at history at all how things work in NT and living on your fantasy world where u-24 kids will win something againts best worlds men.

    But even you should realise that coach Maskvytis have 3 diffrent SF players of 1m98-2m01 that is his kids Ulanovas,Butkevicius,Giedraitis before writting your fantasies about SF position.

    IF you really believe Maksvytis gonna cut his experienced battle tested boys and take your 22-23 raw kid lineup without no experience instead you are really living in your own made fantasy world.

    Nobody is making jokes how Arnas didnt stop Luka after seeing that in Olympics playoofs NTs with 6-7 nba players on roster was simply double teaming Doncic all the time (best basketball minds realised nobody can guard that men 1 vs 1) .

    But lots of people are making jokes in ltu podcasts how Sedekerskis would have ale shut down Luka
    Last edited by Shawshank; 10-16-2021 at 07:31 AM.

  10. #170
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Giedraitis out for 2 months. I think it's unnoficial number based on similar injuries. Possibly because somebody put too much weight on his young shoulders

  11. #171

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    Shaw, At least have some dignity and check stats properly.

    Velicka playd 25min in France, taking 8 shots. In Germany played 27min, taking 8 shots. In Italy thus far playing 22minutes, taking 7.3 shots. His teammate SG Josh
    Mayo playing 24min and taking 8 shots, wing Jordan Parks playing 27minues and taking 10 shots (Velicka only 4th,5th in playing time). Stop spreading bullshit. Velicka taking very normal, even moderate amount of shots. Defensively minded T. Walkup was taking 7.3 shots in 24min last season in EL for Zalgiris. Compare that with some Mike James, who was taking 15 shots per 29min for CSKA and you will know that you completely wrong treating Velicka as selfish combo ISO scorer.

    Your problem that you create opinions in your mind (not even checking the facts) and stick with it no matter what. You shouldn't count on your impressions, usually it misleads you big time. It happens for everyone, that's why we have to check facts.

    So every combo think about themselves and not team results? You are certain about this claim? Pure Manu, Wade, Jerry West...

    Now about SF.

    Be kind and stop using that word history, you know that I busted you with it N times already providing pure facts. You have to stop using that history term seriously. That word history usually means your false memory or distorted impression of the past and your laziness to check the facts, nothing much else (usually). You are the one who were saying that you know top 8 players of 2023 NT while in most Olympic cycles NT changes up to even 8 players.

    My simple thesis is that our SF section is too weak. Do you disagree with that? We had problems with it both 2019 and 2021. In 2019 Ulanovas was checking Fournier. A guard in SF body and he destroyed Ulanovas. In 2021 Butkevicius was checking Doncic, a guard in SF body and he destroyed him (not to blame him, Doncic destroys everyone and our coaches screwed anyway). Against Serbia's Kalinic I think the situation would be pretty much the same, we seen how easily he was eating Ule alive last week. My simple thesis is that we need improvement at 3 if we want to seriously contend. Sedekerskis size and toughness is a good start, even if that probably won't be enough.

    IMO, R. Giedraitis can't play 3. Too soft defensively.

    It's not about who Maksvytis will cut and who won't. My thesis wasn't about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Marciulionis son will be bust like first Sabonis son

  12. #172

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    Italian league:

    T. Dimsa 22.6mpg, 10,6ppg, 8,6eff
    A. Velicka 25.9mpg, 13ppg, 17,7eff


    Dimsa's team stands 6th, Velicka's 10th. Velicka more than two times more efficient thus far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
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  13. #173
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    i repeat again where Velicka teams won atleats 50% of games in last 4 seasons on men level ? including this year when he played ok not 30 but 25+minutes.

    Those loosing situations and teams is very tricky to judge players by, but wouldnt be so high on such type players in loosing situations. Somebody have to score point on bad teams too.

    Real deal players not just collect just stats but also helps team win games . Thats 4th season his team sucks and he control those teams ball for 25+min.I dont like this fact that is repeating for 4th season.

    Im not asking Velickas team win championship,but god damm can atleast once in his career his team win 50% of games when he is bringing ball for that team?

    I dont consider Velicka pure PG how he plays and nothing what to said changed my view on him.

    Im not saying he cant reach NT level i like that he have tough character in him, but just not as main brain of team,but as combo guard.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 10-18-2021 at 04:20 PM.

  14. #174
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    all thinking people reads history and learns from it not just in sports .You know why? because history repeats over and over again.We people are just too blind to see that .

    Im not saying that we have strongest SF in the world,but its far from our weakest position that was my point. Our guards and PF is in worse situation compared to worlds elite team if you wanna compare 1 vs 1.

    IM not affraid of Kalinic types at all Arnas,Ulanovas or same Sedekerskis will be just fine.Im way more im affraid how NT gonna defend Pg and SG positions.

    And yes Giedraitis can play SF and played alot in Baskonia and Alba offensively. He is 2m00 at end of the day surely he can,but NT need more him play in SG.

    But once again im not listening bullshit how we gonna change SF euroleague player too very raw G-league player that havent even smelled that pressure when entire nation is killing you after bad game in media.

    If NT have weak positions there is no fast fix and it doesnt matter what position we talk.

    Like Maksvytis said im not putting nba player on the bench just to play fiba champions league player ale Masiulis or Miniotas that maybe in theory fits better. Its just bad business.

    Skillsets in theory and realise those skills in big pressure NT team competions is two very diffrent things.

    You just want to put same raw boys of yours that you mentioning here for years,but now seeing yourself that they even at age of 23 will have seriuos problems making NT. When you predicted they gonna make it like at 21 already.

    And now because of that trying to make up problems in position where there is no problem compared to other positions.

    Once again NT history says before 23 very hard to make our NT and get a role there. Same history reapeats now with those same players you are advocating for years here.

    Untill our NT will have top 10 world tallents team that will not change.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 10-18-2021 at 04:44 PM.

  15. #175

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    Your criticism to Velcka is so random and selective that it's hard to seriously take it. Why his teams, obviously below average teams which he continuously choose to have plenty of playing time, prioritizing minutes at this point of his career, should win 50% wins? What this particular number means? So 2019/2020 Prienai, with 3,5 serious players in Velicka, Birutis, Miniotas had to take down Juventus, Neptunas, Lietkabelis, Rytas, Zalgiris? They finished 6th, actually prevailing against the teams like Pieno Zvaigzdes, Siauliai. There's mo way that on the paper young and thin Prienai was better than Juventus or Neptunas. In France, Germany, Italy he picked below average teams where he would surely het enough of minutes? Why would these inferior teams should be winning much? He's a good prospect, not a magician And since you only watch stats and highlights how can you have a picture of how he influences team's results overall? He's playing not for the best teams, but in really competitive leagues and very often looks like highest IQ player for his team.

    Velicka won't necessary play at the point all the time in the NT as a pass-first PG since we might have even better options than him, but he surely will be running at the point for his club teams as pure PG as he has been doing last 3-4 years and he still 21yo

    You're missing my point. My point is that our SF position is sneaky soft and weak. That's the thesis. When I say this, I don't care when and who might change that, or how bad is it compared to other positions. I'm simply stating the thesis. It's too weak and we need better (whenever it's coming) to win things.

    And don't put Sedekerskis into the puzzle like he's already a part of the NT and no-one even noticed. You at least understand that he had to be in the NT this summer. But he was cut and he never yet made it. He next summer should be one of the new blood that will be poured to the body of the NT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Marciulionis son will be bust like first Sabonis son

  16. #176

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    I decided to dedicate this post to this thread cause the player I'll try to scout is not particularly a prospect anymore, he's a 22yo PRO. I watched Labas GAS games closely recently and my enthusiasm about Ignas Sargiunas has been growing. Again, when I saw him playing U20, not that he was horrible, but I thought he was on the declining mode compared to previous torunaments, looked off shape, a little bit overweight. I thought that's it, the guy bulked up and lost it's advantages. Then followed some horrible, mysterious NCAA campaign, even rumors that he's retiring from basketball, but all this was just a wrap of steady development. The guy dedicated himself working on his body in USA and it gave dividends.

    Now, Sargiunas is exactly a combo guard (that's where my point about Velicka is becoming vivid, cause Velicka is still at different level handles and creating wise compared to Sargiunas). Sargiunas is one of the purest combo guard examples that I can come up with from Lithuanians, other would be Lekavicius. That is a score-first guard who can also fill the assists stat sheets, but is not particularly the one to organize the team's offense at the highest level. I think also Rooney could be treated easily as a combo guard, at least he was forced to play as such for Lithuanian NT, he was dishing 8,2apg in 1992 Olympics. Sargiunas has 4,2apg which is impressive.

    My thesis is that Sargiunas may reach the level of NT as combo guard/SG. So far he's the most pleasant surprise from young Lihuanian players this season. It's good news cause our position 2 is lacking higher calibre prospects. We have Grigonis. After him I do believe that D. Giedraitis and I. Sargiunas are the highest upside nominal prospects of 2. The comparison between the 2 are very interesting cause both have almost similar size. Giedraitis is better and more consistent decision maker, better shooter and better defender. Sargiunas is much better athlete and more explosive scorer and has more handles. The way basketball is build today, I believe Sargiunas has an edge heading forward because of the modern shift from a fundamental-driven style of play to a more scoring-oriented style and specially because Sargiunas is better athlete and less fragile (which seems to be the problem of both Grigonis and D. Giedraitis in their careers). I really wish luck for talented Dovydas, but he has been an injury prone thus far unfortunately. If your body collapses when you are 20yo it's not a good sign at all. Now let's discuss Sargiunas' pros and cons for this position:

    Positives: solid athlete, strong base, quick feet at both ends, explosive slasher, doesn't mind contact, can switch to primarily creator duties for some stretches, can make various high culture passes, has a mid range game, can hit the jimmy off the dribble, can float it in, decent motor defensively, active hands, shows promise as a shooter, has deep range.

    Negatives: Not an impressive size for 2, streaky shooter, inconsistent decision maker (turn over prone).

    Summa summarum, I like the package and treat him as the one who can really ripe into a solid backcourt option for the NT. His ability to play with the ball and facilitate while being an aggressive scoring threat makes him intriguing. He might be another piece which might assure that we wouldn't be lacking any handles and creation in 20s. If can develop his outside shot to a really high level, we might be having a real baller in him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Marciulionis son will be bust like first Sabonis son

  17. #177

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    I want say couple of positive things about current federation. First true story. Last evening, when I read Twitter I wrote polite, constructive email to M. Balčiūnas narrating the story about Matas Buzelis. I'm sure I was far from the only one writing to him that evening (and federations Twitter and Instagram was bombarded all over), but received the reply in minutes. Balčiūnas assured that tomorrow they are taking actions and that he didn't expect USA would make an offer so early. So instant reaction and Gedvilas wasn't even too proud to dedicate the video to a youngster inviting him to represent Lithuania. This shows that current federation is really down to earth. Now why Špokas federation didn't have any contacts with him? Jesus, just call him, ask if he would want to come to U18 Challenger, even include him to U19 WC roster, ar at least say we love your game "how you doing"...Nah, previous federation was too busy, too busy hiring Maskoliunas and incorporating Dimsas Masiulisis into NT, there's no time for truth generational talents who might be changing the landscape of Lith BB for upcoming 18 years.

    Second, I want to congratulate Balciunas for bringing reserve NT idea back. We should be absolutely having reserve NT and some Kemzura could be working with it. Why we had to cut this idea down is another question to Spokas. That was something good at least what previous federation was doing, but, no, let's cut it.

    I'm really happy Spokas and Co. is gone. Jesus Christ...Hiring Maskoliunas...spending millions on Kaunas tournament which worked only contra-productive...voluntary taking a part with Germany for a death group of Eurobasket 2022...completely sleeping on the biggest new generation young player....

    Why I have a feeling it's not over and some new "favors" of their job will come out in upcoming half of a year? Hell or high water, keep those guys away for Lithuanian basketball. 9th and FIBA men rankings (so -5/6 drop since the days of Balciunas federation times) and 5th in FIBA youth rankings (-3 drop).

    Sabonis is Lithuanian basketball legend and he will always remain so, but Sabonis as President of federation was a disaster. Previous federation lacked self-reflection. They didn't understand how sleepy, closed and losing they are as federation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Marciulionis son will be bust like first Sabonis son

  18. #178

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    OK, so I have to take my words back regarding previous federation's inactivity regarding Buzelis. Seems like Rolandas Radvila was connecting with him or something (if anyone has link to his post pleas e share with me). But then. again, what kind of a contact it was if 2 days before this one Buzelis writes on Twitter "If I could get invited". Did the boy forget about the fact that Lithuanian federation already contacted? I'm confused.

    And then, again, maybe I'm too harsh on Sabonis, maybe he just worked silently and his horrific public appearances made it look much worse than it actually was, maybe I'm too harsh, but nevertheless we see where we are today and that's not a good place to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Marciulionis son will be bust like first Sabonis son

  19. #179
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Your problem that you create opinions in your mind (not even checking the facts) and stick with it no matter what. You shouldn't count on your impressions, usually it misleads you big time. It happens for everyone, that's why we have to check facts.
    And you're criticizing other posters for not checking the facts? Most of the time all you do is extrapolate from your own hopes and expectations. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


  20. #180
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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