2021 Olympic qualifying tournament

[Sikatrix]

indeed none. everything is qualitative (and therefore subjective).

that is why for every exception, fiba always say that they reserve the right to apply or interpret rules more restrictively in d future.

Which is why FIBA should write clearer, more specific rules instead of dependence on the whims of the Sec Gen.

[Labradoodle]

This is not explicitly written in FIBA's rules though and probably just some guesswork based on previous cases.

Personally obvious connections to a country should matter a lot more than basketball recruitment and a passport at 15(Indonesia/Qatar).

If the passport at 15 will be lowest denomination, that would seriously affect the ability of the Philippines to recruit diasporic Filipino. If residency and basketball heritage would have more weight in general, we would not see Dwight Ramos as a local. I mean, he obviously has his passport before 15, but he hasn't played locally yet even before he joined the national team.

Given our large diaspora and dual citizenship laws, we still have advantage with passport at 15 being an important weight in who is considered as local. All we have to do is to convince the parents of the prospect to claim their citizenship and passport,.versus the case of Indonesia where they will have to naturalize someone who was born to an Indonesian because Indonesia does not recognize dual citizenship.

Shifting emphasis from passport age to basketball heritage may backfire at least in the short term, but this may force the SBP to really take basketball youth developmeng way more seriously that just giving a good showing at the WC

[Labradoodle]

age on moving to the philippines is still basically about residency. it strengthened the required residency criterion.

now, studies that's an add-on yes; although fiba basically lumped it with playing experience so what mattered more was playing basketball in our country since college. this strengthened the required criterion of playing domestically.

the "other criteria" that was used in greg's case was actually in terms of getting a passport at an early age (just a year removed from 16).

Greg moving to the Philippines as an amateur/college baller is not the same as Jawato moving to Indonesia as a pro baller. Greg is like Kouame minus the citizenship while Jawato is more comparable to Justin Brownlee minus the Balinese ancestry

[Labradoodle]

It would probably better if the exemptions will just be abolished. They are "exemptions" a reason. And FIBA states that exemption decisions should not be taken "precedents" and are decided on case by case basis. In short, we can't use/cite Jawato's case with Pringle's situation. Pringle's case will have to stand on its own.

This is why I strongly believe that Jawato's exemption was a "mercy decision" from FIBA rather than an "ancestry decision". You see, among the co-hosts, they're the only ones who does not have a WC appearance.

A Jawato-less and Prosper-less Indonesia did not even make it to the SEAG podium. Thailand got Silver (with Tyler of course) and Vietnam, bronze (with their Viet-Ams)

[Labradoodle]

Agree with most if not all above..

Lets put it this way, if Jawato was from a nation that was not hosting the WC , I doubt he would get an exception ( that's just my opinion)

While I agree that Jawato having a parent born in Indonesia is a point for "significant connection", i honesty do not think lineage is weighted heavily as a factor . Generally lineage is not a major basis for granting citizenship for many governments due to many populations being formed by immigrants. 80 % of Nz for example is formed from families where a member of family last 3 generations (grand) is born overseas. BTW Fotu who got an exception neither of his parents were born or citizens of NZ .

I also do not think the process of granting a 2nd citizenship whether via legislation is viewed any less or gets less credit than a 2nd citizenship granted and confirmed later in life based on birth .

Residency and local play have the biggest weights for exception in my view .

While no 2 cases are exactly the same, If I were to compare Jawato vs Kouame's case in my view , Kouame has more merits to be exempted compared to Jawato. (Just me)

I agree. This is why I believe Jawato's exeption is rare. It has more to do with Indonesia being a co-host that Jawato's merits alone.

If, for example, we will co-host the WC with Australia and New Zealand, FIBA will probably grant us some rare exeption (parang suntokmsa buwan exemptions) in order to close the gap between us and AUS/NZ

Before his naturalization, Jawato was more like an import than the mixed diasporic Filipinos

[neo]

Greg moving to the Philippines as an amateur/college baller is not the same as Jawato moving to Indonesia as a pro baller. Greg is like Kouame minus the citizenship while Jawato is more comparable to Justin Brownlee minus the Balinese ancestry

Nobody is saying that its d same.

but whether you started playing or residing in a country for 5 years or 10 years or 15 years at d time of d application for exception, you are still able to address d 2 major explicit criteria. longer years will strengthen your case, but thats about it. that is why jawato was given exception even if he has been playing for less than 6 years in indonesia. the rules do not specify number of years nor contexts when it comes to residency and years of playing in domestic competitions.

[Labradoodle]

Jawato vs Slaughter is not even comparable.

1 - Greg is NOT a naturalized Filipino. He is natural-born. Jawato was literally and technically a foreigner before his naturalization. In short, Greg did not need work visa while Jawato did. Greg was not naturalized so he can be part of Gilas. Jawato was naturalized so can be in Timmas. Greg's exemption has a lot to do with the passport age.

2 - Greg moved to the Philippines is his youth, in his "basketball development years". Jawato moved to Indonesia as a basketball PROFESSIONAL. To have a job/make money

As DAdmiral said, I doubt Jawato would be granted this exemption had they not been a WC co host

[neo]

Jawato vs Slaughter is not even comparable.

1 - Greg is NOT a naturalized Filipino. He is natural-born. Jawato was literally and technically a foreigner before his naturalization. In short, Greg did not need work visa while Jawato did.

2 - Greg moved to the Philippines is his youth, in his "basketball development years". Jawato moved to Indonesia as a basketball PROFESSIONAL. To have a job/make money

As DAdmiral said, I doubt Jawato would be granted this exemption had they not been a WC co host

d discussion is about exception as per fiba rule.it is not about comparing greg and jawato (case to case nga eh).

1 - it does not matter if one is naturalized or someone with heritage who failed to secure a passport at 16. it is basically equal in d eyes of fiba. fiba citing jawato's ancestry is part of the "other criteria", not part of d two explicit criteria.

2- d number of years or context are for d subjective consideration only of d secretary general. what matters is residency per se.

i have posted long before that i think jawato's exception is a concession by fiba related to them being wc host. that is why i support any move or exceptfion now for whoever has d best shot, but strategically so as not to jeopardize future cases.

[DAdmiral]

Just say for argument sake Koon's passport was granted via naturalization process similar to Tyler Tio: https://news.abs-cbn.com/sports/06/0...ngs-for-ateneo
For all intent purposes 5 years from now if Koon plays for Ateneo his case for exception is exactly that of Kouame. There is no extra points for Koon having Filipino ancestry parents assuming his parents were never Filipino citizens or were neither born in the Philippines.

For most Pinoy fans the fact that Kouame is not of Filipino decent and is an import classification in the UAAP is something too difficult a concept to understand that he can play as a local. Which brings me to the question assuming Kouame indeed gets exempted to play as a local, what would be the response of the Philippine public? That is a serious question. Is there a possibility of an uproar and as usual like senate investigation lol

[Labradoodle]

^^Probably people will cheer for Kouame's localization for FIBA but will cry foul if ever the UAAP classifies him as a local and/or the PBA decides to accept naturalized players as locals.

Many Filipinos still cannot distinguish the difference between ancestry/genetics and citizenship.

[Sikatrix]

^^Nah Pinoys know what citizenship is and how it is different from ones roots.You just think lowly of pinoys I guess. How one gets access to citizenship most people dont understand I guess, as is normal to be fair.

[Labradoodle]

^^Most people don't distinguish between the two.

Why, in the first place, do people automatically say Sage Tolentino should get his passport before he turned 16 when they did not ask the question if Sage even has claim to PH citizenship given that he is 3rd/4th generation? The same with Remy Martin. Filipinos say "they should have gotten their passports" without even considering if they even have claims to citizenship.

The farther people are from the 2nd generation, the less likely will they be able to claim PH citizenship. The laws before the 2003 dual citizenship laws are what hindered 3rd, 4th and even second generation to not be able to claim PH citizenship (if their parents took a foreign citizenship before they were born)

The fact that most people assume anyone who has "Filipino blood" is a citizen is a testament that people don't understand that citizenship and ethnicity/ancestry are not interchangeable with each other.

[Sikatrix]

Normal Filipinos know what citizenship means. Typical pinoy pag sinabihan mo, american citizen relative nila, gets nila yun. So if you say Sage isnt a Filipino citizen theyll understand that too. Why Sage has difficulty obtaining citizenship well thats a different question and its 100% normal that people dont understand why. Partly because it hasnt been cleared up by anyone really.

The passport is just a universal document that proves you have citizenship. Thats the purpose why FIBA requires it.

Also Remy Martin has citizenship. Why are you doubting his right to citizenship? Any good reason?

[cocoyg]

Many will be surprised but they'll eventually accept it. Of course, those few but noisy critics will always be there. Look at Asi whose PBA retirement is long overdue. The government already ruled him a Filipino a long time ago but even here in IBN recently there are some who will mention that his citizenship is a sham.

[Sikatrix]

Many will be surprised but they'll eventually accept it. Of course, those few but noisy critics will always be there. Look at Asi whose PBA retirement is long overdue. The government already ruled him a Filipino a long time ago but even here in IBN recently there are some who will mention that his citizenship is a sham.

In fairness there was good reasons at the time to doubt Asi's right to citizenship but factually thats done. He is a citizen. He is Filipino and to be fair he has served the country well.