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Thread: Euroleague Regular Season: Round 22 And 23: Double Round Week

  1. #41
    Senior Member Obina's Avatar
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    Fener is a different team with Guduric. From -40 in Kaunas and Berlin, to serious top8 team.

    Ofc it's not only because of Guduric. NDC, Vesely and Pierre improved a lot.

  2. #42
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    I don't know why people look on Eddie as defensive hole, I think it's just the opposite. We have the strongest defence with him and Pierre in the court.
    At the start of the year, Eddie had the athletic tools to be an average defender but he was not, since he was not interested in defense + his fundamentals in defense (where to move, when to jump or not etc) were quite bad. I think his understanding of defense is improving, but also he tries much harder now. It's a mix of Kokoskov convincing him and his progression as a player imo.

    Also, those two usually play together with Brown on the court. Brown and Pierre are incredible defenders for Euroleague level and they elevate others as well.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  3. #43
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obina View Post
    Fener is a different team with Guduric. From -40 in Kaunas and Berlin, to serious top8 team.

    Ofc it's not only because of Guduric. NDC, Vesely and Pierre improved a lot.
    Yesterday after the game when asked about his performance in the last weeks, Vesely said that "I almost always came back without fully healing. Now I'm feeling 100% physically". I don't know how much truth there's to it, but hopefully he stays healthy.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
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    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
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  4. #44
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    He really looks awesome this year. Yesterday there was a scene when he switched in one set at two different guards from Maccabi and he stayed in front even they tried to crossover and change direction. In my opinion he is the key factor for your rise.

    Fener is different than other teams. And that makes them so dangerous. They attack a lot from position two and three with a lot of blocks, back blogs, hand offs and cross rotations. It looks good. It reminds on Bayern and Valencia but of course with more individual quality. It's really a joy to watch your team at this moment. What I like most and what got lost in European basketball a little is that everyone is involved and everyone is trusted to take a shot at every moment in the game. This is a key receipe for winning mentality.

  5. #45
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    The main reason for Fener's boost from 5/10 to 12/10 is Guduric who took Ulanovas role(not exactly but in fact he limited Ulanovas's minutes on the court). I am glad that I was right all the time about that.
    Now even Ulanovas could be useful like last night with 3 assists and one postup shoot. It's more then enough from him. The most important thing is if he forget about 3pt shooting. As a matter of fact he should forget about shooting at all.

    Second reason is Vesely, who came back to his form before the injury, I would say that he is now even better because he makes mid range shoots and FTs with better percentage then in his best seasons.

    Third is Pierre, who showed character and we need that in the roster. I am sure that Barthel will show the same.

    Fourth is De Colo, but just because there is not Sloukas anymore beside him. It was painfully to watch them in the same time on the court. He just moved closer to his CSKA mode but still he didn't touch his peak.

    Though, there are still many problems that need to be solved if we want to have any chance to be contender without HCA in April.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Adon's Avatar
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    The worst PAO since Galis' era. I can hardly watch their games. At least, they are developing some young Greek players and Pappagiannis is shining, justfying all my support to him since he had come back from NBA.

    Oly is somewhat better, perhaps they can reach top-8 this year, Span has become a problem though. PIR -3 yesterday

  7. #47
    Senior Member Serbian_Layup's Avatar
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    I don't think that Gudurić alone should be credited for recent Fener's rise in the standings. It was obvious that Fener had systematic problems in their offensive scheme, primarily lack of another player who can be a triple threat as a scorer, playmaker and penetrator. That was unlocked by the Gudurić signing who can do a little bit of everything. Kokoškov loves to have guards/wings who can manipulate with lots of different offensive schemes, and that requires deeper skill-sets which he found in De Colo, Brown and Gudurić. Now, at every time on the floor he has at least two players who fit his offensive scheme which is predicated on capability to move the ball, make plays for others from multiple positions, make extra pass for an even better looking shot. His playbook is huge, he is always coming out of timeouts with a sweet play for an open shot or an easy look for big guys. It's not by accident that Vesely looks so much better than earlier in the season. And he has excellent complimentary players like Pierre, Ulanovas and Barthel to provide good defense and work around those guys. Not to mention Kyle O'Quinn who as I remember from his NBA days is a crafty finisher around the basket and will provide depth in the frontcourt. Fener might be very dangerous in the playoffs, I think they have the biggest upside of all teams

  8. #48
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    I agree with all of it Serbian_Layup, one addition: Early in the season Vesely was mostly utilized as a finisher. After the catastrophic losses Kokoskov puts him in the high post (sometimes in the low post) and the distributes the ball from there using his great court vision as a big. That not only made the offense more deadly but also took the ball out of Brown's hands in the half-court, where he tends to hold the ball too much or turns it over. Brown also now can focus more on defense.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  9. #49
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    I agree with all of it Serbian_Layup, one addition: Early in the season Vesely was mostly utilized as a finisher. After the catastrophic losses Kokoskov puts him in the high post (sometimes in the low post) and the distributes the ball from there using his great court vision as a big. That not only made the offense more deadly but also took the ball out of Brown's hands in the half-court, where he tends to hold the ball too much or turns it over. Brown also now can focus more on defense.
    Vesely is taking 10.5 shots per game in last 7 games. He's taking longer shots and he hits very good % of those shots. He was averaging only 8 shots before and had bad % considering how close those shots were. Vesely always was psychologically problematic player. It looks to me Kokoskov unlocked his self confidence. Big, who can hit midrange shots is of course much more valuable for the coach and different game plans.

    Interesting part of Fener's story is, that they got better while Real and Cska have lost crucial players.

    http://www.overbasket.com/rsplayers....=000925&cmp=EL
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 01-27-2021 at 04:52 PM.
    previously known as Beno

  10. #50
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Power ranking after last events:

    1. Barca
    2.
    3.
    4. Milano
    5. Efes, Zenit, Real, CSKA, Fener.

  11. #51
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    I agree with all of it Serbian_Layup, one addition: Early in the season Vesely was mostly utilized as a finisher. After the catastrophic losses Kokoskov puts him in the high post (sometimes in the low post) and the distributes the ball from there using his great court vision as a big. That not only made the offense more deadly but also took the ball out of Brown's hands in the half-court, where he tends to hold the ball too much or turns it over. Brown also now can focus more on defense.
    Though I agree that Vesely sometimes takes and distributes the ball(and he does it perfectly), saying that he took the ball out of Brown is exaggeration. De Colo and Guduric took the ball from his hands.

    Brown is turnover machine and that's obvious, but there is something tragicomic in way he does that. I never saw in my life player who is capable to turn over the ball in such various ways. His skillset is quite ok but something in his head isn't. Pity, he could have been one of top point guards

  12. #52
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Did Fener fans noticed, how Vesely is playing better without Barthel, playing some time as Pf?
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  13. #53
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Vesely is taking 10.5 shots per game in last 7 games. He's taking longer shots and he hits very good % of those shots. He was averaging only 8 shots before and had bad % considering how close those shots were. Vesely always was psychologically problematic player. It looks to me Kokoskov unlocked his self confidence. Big, who can hit midrange shots is of course much more valuable for the coach and different game plans.

    Interesting part of Fener's story is, that they got better while Real and Cska have lost crucial players.

    http://www.overbasket.com/rsplayers....=000925&cmp=EL
    Vesely started the season bad in terms of %, but he had already started to develop his mid-range last season. It could be a fluke, but it seems he got more consistent this season.

    Kokoskov not only instilled confidence but also wanted him to be a leader, it feels. I've never seen Vesely managing his teammates or holding them responsible as much as these last couple of weeks. When you add the fact that he's physically better (he moves around more freely), we see a performance (for a couple of weeks) maybe even better than his MVP season.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  14. #54
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Did Fener fans noticed, how Vesely is playing better without Barthel, playing some time as Pf?
    I disagree. He was also doing well with Barthel before he went down - Vesely could still stay in the perimeter as Barthel is good as the low post and can rebound (better than Ahmet at least). We were basically using Barthel in the 5.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  15. #55
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    Though I agree that Vesely sometimes takes and distributes the ball(and he does it perfectly), saying that he took the ball out of Brown is exaggeration. De Colo and Guduric took the ball from his hands.

    Brown is turnover machine and that's obvious, but there is something tragicomic in way he does that. I never saw in my life player who is capable to turn over the ball in such various ways. His skillset is quite ok but something in his head isn't. Pity, he could have been one of top point guards
    De Colo and Brown almost exclusively held onto the ball at the start of the season. Guduric definitely contributed a lot but Vesely also has more touches early in the offense, at the top of the painted area.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
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  16. #56
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    I disagree. He was also doing well with Barthel before he went down - Vesely could still stay in the perimeter as Barthel is good as the low post and can rebound (better than Ahmet at least). We were basically using Barthel in the 5.
    I believe Vesely isn't a C, never was. Is not good rim protector or rebounder. He was playing very well with Udoh too. Maybe Fener should bring a quality C next season and let Vesely mostly play on 4.
    previously known as Beno

  17. #57
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    I believe Vesely isn't a C, never was. Is not good rim protector or rebounder. He was playing very well with Udoh too. Maybe Fener should bring a quality C next season and let Vesely mostly play on 4.
    Vesely isn't a C, that's my point. On the other hand Barthel performed much, much better in C rather than PF for us. Barthel isn't as agile as Vesely but he's a better post defender and is a decent rebounder. Thus why I'm saying Vesely & Barthel works as a duo and absence of Barthel wasn't the reason in the games won recently.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
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    Şampiyonluk gelince

  18. #58
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    Vesely isn't a C, that's my point. On the other hand Barthel performed much, much better in C rather than PF for us. Barthel isn't as agile as Vesely but he's a better post defender and is a decent rebounder. Thus why I'm saying Vesely & Barthel works as a duo and absence of Barthel wasn't the reason in the games won recently.
    Vesely for sure has got more Pf minutes because of Barthel absence. Was that a reason for him and Fener playing better is debatable, but they for sure have won last 4 games without Barthel, so it looks to me his absence didn’t hurt them.
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  19. #59
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Vesely for sure has got more Pf minutes because of Barthel absence. Was that a reason for him and Fener playing better is debatable, but they for sure have won last 4 games without Barthel, so it looks to me his absence didn’t hurt them.
    I think you haven't watched Fener games back then... Vesely was already not defending the C while playing with Barthel, he was defending the perimeter etc. And as I said Vesely and Barthel together was not the problem, mostly not having De Colo and lack of creation from the forwards were the issues. The absence of Barthel didn't prevent us from winning, but it caused Vesely to play 30+ minutes every game which nobody wants considering his injury history

    Just checked Overbasket. Best trios of Fener in terms of Plus/Minus:

    1) Brown - De Colo - Vesely (+50)
    2) Brown - Pierre - Vesely (+45)
    3) Barthel - De Colo Vesely (+44)
    4) De Colo - Guduric - Vesely (+42)
    5) Brown - Guduric - Pierre (+42)

    Very interesting imo. Of course the minutes are not equal but Brown and Barthel were surprising to me.
    Last edited by vivo; 01-27-2021 at 08:06 PM.
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  20. #60
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    I think you haven't watched Fener games back then... Vesely was already not defending the C while playing with Barthel, he was defending the perimeter etc. And as I said Vesely and Barthel together was not the problem, mostly not having De Colo and lack of creation from the forwards were the issues. The absence of Barthel didn't prevent us from winning, but it caused Vesely to play 30+ minutes every game which nobody wants considering his injury history
    Where was he in offense? I didn’t say Barthel was a problem, I said Vesely looks better playing more time on Pf.
    previously known as Beno

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