Kaunas Zalgiris Thread

[Dreamcatcher]

To SF
Finally it's smth new because a radio was already broken with the same stories: JV is dying breed, noone in Lithuania except Saras and you understand contemporary basketball, barbarian Lithuanian culture, etc. Kazlauskas not being an elite coach is smth new. I'm not a fan of using a word "elite", but a coach who was one of the best in Europe deserves to be called like that. CSKA that had Kirilenko and elite roster to win EL went for Kazlauskas exactly because he was one of the best coaches in Europe. Greece NT thought the same. About his influence: when he came to China according to him he had to change things mentally a lot because young players were too respectful to older and etc but he did that and China could play high level basketball. That's obviously was a big influence. Anyway, Kazlauskas's career: teams he coached and achievements he had says a lot - definitely enough to call him an elite coach even if i'm not used to use this word.
I don't like an idea to compare him with Saras. Jasikevicius is coaching only several years. He has a huge potential but exactly at his age Kazlaskas's Zalgiris won EL title. Let many years come to compare them.
I like Saras (who doesn't in Lithuania?) but you acting like a fanboy threating him already the best coach in Europe and underrating such huge one like Kazlauskas in comparison with Saras. So far he coached only poor Zalgiris. To become the best coach won't be easy at all. Let's say why you think he should do better than Itoudis who managed to integrate Mike James and whose CSKA so far played an elite basketball without downfalls and won title?

[Svajunas]

I would accept Kemzura as a coach. 2010 ball we played was amazing. I know we couldn't do it with Z roaster, but I believe that Kemzura could bring the best of our guys. Now we need to sign him for something like 2+1 and basicly give him a year to implement his system.

Maskvytis could be a option too. While the other two I don't really like as coaches yet.

[MrRager]

I would accept Kemzura as a coach. 2010 ball we played was amazing. I know we couldn't do it with Z roaster, but I believe that Kemzura could bring the best of our guys. Now we need to sign him for something like 2+1 and basicly give him a year to implement his system.

Maskvytis could be a option too. While the other two I don't really like as coaches yet.

I'm glad Kemzura is out of the list. I feel like he didn't prove himself as a successful HC, maybe being a good assistant coach are his ceilings. That 2010 WC could've been a fluke, remember, nobody expected anything from that, so he could've just rolled the dice and let players play the type of game they enjoy playing. For short tournaments this could lead to the success, but given the long and stressful season of the EL, it might be harder to implement it.
I hope Maskvytis will be given a chance (but his situation is more difficult because of the buyout), but Adomaitis wouldn't disappoint me either. He achieved pretty good results under a bad management in Rytas, while the game style of the NT was attractive, but there was a simple lack of luck in some situations.

[auris1]

Auris, I assume you got angry or emotional, or maybe even got couple of beers (why not), but I bet you may have different attitude today or month. It sounded like typical Lithuanian sacred cow protection. You surely seen Kazkauslas coaching. You surely seen Jasikevicius coaching. Now tell me that you still think Kazlauskas was ever coaching any team better, than Jasikevicius coached Zalgiris last 4 years?

Look , my response wasnt based on anger , just on disbelief . Just imagine that thing i wrote with a lot smiley faces , shoulder shrugs etc. Virtual high five.

[auris1]

I'm glad Kemzura is out of the list. I feel like he didn't prove himself as a successful HC, maybe being a good assistant coach are his ceilings. That 2010 WC could've been a fluke, remember, nobody expected anything from that, so he could've just rolled the dice and let players play the type of game they enjoy playing. For short tournaments this could lead to the success, but given the long and stressful season of the EL, it might be harder to implement it.
I hope Maskvytis will be given a chance (but his situation is more difficult because of the buyout), but Adomaitis wouldn't disappoint me either. He achieved pretty good results under a bad management in Rytas, while the game style of the NT was attractive, but there was a simple lack of luck in some situations.

I am surprised with Kemzura's decision, no lies. Obviously , i have no inside information , so i can only speculate. Maybe the issue was money, or length of the contact ? Lack of control in making decisions regarding team selection, playing style , back court staff? Maybe he didn't want a pressure that comes with a job? Maybe it wasnt just right time for him. Or .. was he even considered for the job? Time will tell.
So who are we left with if we go with Lithuanian coach?
Most likely - Maksvytis or Adomaitis.
Not likely at all - Kurtinaitis and Kazlauskas. But both fit a profile.
Sernius , Butautas or Stombergas?
Or Seskus perhaps?

[Straight forward]

Shawshank, your assumption that time's perspective is the key here is false because in Kazlauskas era there were coaching who worked at the higher level, like Obradovic. I always treat coach by his actual work, not titles. Messina to me is overrated great, he snatched some titles, but from what've seen I never was impressed with his work. Obrodovic in 00's (and 10's) was very very close to what Saras is bringing now.

Dreamcatcher, I disagree. I would dear to say that I'm the least Lithuanian bias poster in this forum, or one of the leaders at this point. I can make mistakes valuing players/coaches, but I don't have usual Lithuanian partiality which is common for average BB fan. If I see where JV, Domas suck I'll emphasize, if I see where Saras/Kazlauskas suck I'll name. I can also overrate some of Lithuanian players, but not because they are Lithuanians, but because I simply projected something too much for them here or there. I don't treat Saras as the best coach in Europe, I probably agree that you need titles for this, but I treat him as the coach who influences the team and the final result the most from what I can see now. It will be extremely interesting how he will handle Barsa. I project that he will control it not much less (if any) than he controlled Zalgiris, will allow improvisation much less than any other coach would for such talented roster, and at the end of the day he will be controlling the outcome of the game much more than any other coach in Europe at the moment.

Now, back to topic. I love that Grigonis and Lekavicius staying. And I love that Zalgiris most likely will have to go for solid foreigner. I thought that's the best choice in the first place. Ulanovas loss? I don't know...He's a very unique piece, but I don't think he's a difference maker. So this shouldn't hurt Zalgiris that much. I just don't know how such pieces as Dimsa, Vasturia fit Zalgiris now. I feel they badly needed Saras to lead them. Now to become an integral parts of the team will be much more difficult for these guys.

[Shawshank]

Shawshank, your assumption that time's perspective is the key here is false because in Kazlauskas era there were coaching who worked at the higher level, like Obradovic. I always treat coach by his actual work, not titles. Messina to me is overrated great, he snatched some titles, but from what've seen I never was impressed with his work. Obrodovic in 00's (and 10's) was very very close to what Saras is bringing now.

So if Kazlauskas back in the day was 4-5 best europes coach you dont consider that europes elite? Yes Obradovic was better so what?

I see most of things,players,coaches,playing style you judge simply by your personal taste ,dont take any other seriuos criterias to be objective.

I try to judge more by results and achievements.If coaches system brings seriuos achievements it means it works ,doesnt matter i like his style or not that irrevelant,main things are results.Its not a beauty contest.Main goal is to win in sport not to look sexy playing it.

I always thought that achievements and are coaches personal work and proof of his level no?

but hell STF personal taste means more,who cares about medals,titles .

Good thing is that STF know everything and will let us know when world elite coaches will make mistakes.Thanks you for that you are so kind for this forum readers )

[Straight forward]

So if Kazlauskas back in the day was 4-5 best europes coach you dont consider that europes elite? Yes Obradovic was better so what?

I see most of things,players,coaches,playing style you judge simply by your personal taste ,dont take any other seriuos criterias to be objective.

I try to judge more by results and achievements.If coaches system brings seriuos achievements it means it works ,doesnt matter i like his style or not that irrevelant,main things are results.Its not a beauty contest.Main goal is to win in sport not to look sexy playing it.

I always thought that achievements and are coaches personal work and proof of his level no?

but hell STF personal taste means more,who cares about medals,titles .

Good thing is that STF know everything and will let us know when world elite coaches will make mistakes.Thanks you for that you are so kind for this forum readers )

The point is, that in 00's there were coaches who coached very similarly to current Saras. It's not like everything changed absolutely radically and now every coach is way better than any 00's coach were as you pointed out.

To me Kazlauskas was borderline elite, not elite. He had some great stretches, but never established himself as unmovable elite coach (the one who transit only between elite EL clubs).

Surely, I value team's achievements. To me, to bring Zalgiris, with this budget and talent, to top 8 territory and even final 4 one year, was extremely huge achievement. Winning EL is huge because EL format is brutal. You can make absolutely best team, but there's no series so you can lose one game in a fluke. But let's mind that Kazlauskas had much bigger talent. Edney could take over the game the way Pangos, Micic couldn't. Bowie was huge. So Zalgiris had 2 true perimeter stars. Stombergas as a wing was dropping 13ppg. Quality all around roster. It was huge win, but Zalgiris also had tons of individual and team talent.

My point is, that in this data, this stretch of Saras' Zalgiris, I've seen more impressive and more dominant coaching performance than I've seen in 1998-2000 Zalgiris.

[Straight forward]

Plaza and Alex Mumbru are among candidates for head coach position. The latter, IMO, would be a perfect! It may be a blow for Kulboka at this point, he has been giving him some credit.

[LuDux]

Zalgiris minute distribution with in EL with Rivers on board minus 3 blowouts and 2 games that Landale and Jankunas missed
Geben 4, Landale 21, Leday 21, Jankunas 15, Hayes 21 (total 82)
Ulanovas 25, Milaknis 22, Rivers 21, Lekavicius 21, Walkup 28, Jokubaitis 1

[Straight forward]

Love the new head coach choice. Instead of going for average Lithuanian, they picked intriguing potential and globally relevant figure who might work into the greatness of coaching. I do think he will study Saras' ways carefully as well and will mix something into his own. Interesting!

[Mindozas]

Losing Saras is huge, there's nothing to add about coaching/scouting part, he was mastermind in club's rise, but also he helped to lift whole organisation to new level, brought back to club that winning mentality, which we lacked since Kazlauskas days. That was one of the main weaknesses in club for years. I really hope that we will manage to keep it somehow and not fall to that slump when we were heading to away games against top clubs not to lose big and that was already ok or overall were seen as strictly home team. For that reason I was kinda against the idea to bring Lith coach. We never had good experience with average Lith coaches and with all due respect to current (younger) LT coaches generation, I just can't see who could lead Zalgiris now. Maybe Maksvytis in few years. Maybe Kairys. I think this Schiller guy worth a risk, knew the name, but didn't know almost anything about him as I follow NBA too randomly, what to say about G-League, but as much as I've read about him during these days, his profile is really close to what Zalgiris needs. It might work out great, it might be a fail, but as I wrote - IMO it worth a risk.
Talking about roster, Ulanovas leaving was only a matter of time, lately every summer he was thinking about trying his luck abroad and wanted that badly, so finally he will have a chance, good luck to him. Even tho, I have a feeling that next summer he might be back Changing Leday and Landale with Rubit and Lauvergne looks decent on paper, but Lauvergne's injuries' history is worrying, of course if not it, we would barely get a chance to sign player of his caliber, so maybe it will turn out as great deal. Rubit is proven player, who didn't really got a chance in Oly's mess last season. But his game/stats in short playing stretches were good enough to expect him to bring back his game from Bamberg days.
What I would like to add now is obviously SF with a good shooting touch, Nunnally is the name floating around for couple of weeks. IMO for Zalgiris it would be decent choice. Also will continue my rants about a need of creative PG. Last season I criticized management and Saras for not bringing creative PG after Perez failed to impress. Coach managed to hide this issue under his schemes, good ball movement, but that worked only when our shots were falling. But when it didn't, we were in deep trouble, creativity was big issue. Walkup can execute well, but he is not a creator. Lukas is SG in PG body. Vasturia is kinda creative all-around player, but I can hardly see him helping too much right away. There were talks about him being loaned, but that was like month ago, maybe new coach will have different idea.

Few cents to OT about Kazlauskas. In my book he was elite, no question about it, but as whole LT bball in that period when he started to shine (starting with Sabas generation leaving the stage), wasn't recognized as one and didn't get all the praise he deserved. Beside Kazlas, I mean mostly local players talent. We had so much of it, but lot of guys stuck in LT for too long. Such talent like Stombergas needed to win Saporta with 35pts final performance, then EL to get some attention... If situation would've been like it is nowadays, he would've been gone since some 1995. Overall, that decade club basketball was ruled mostly by Yugo coaches, then Messina, one Greek coach, who coached Oly, AEK and brought both to finals, damn, forgot his name, and slow, defensive, tactical bball was fashionable, especially in final stages of season lot of games were finishing even in 50-60s points range and that was a norm. Just remember that the same Kinder won EL in 1998, a year before Zalgiris, letting AEK score just a bit over 40pts. Kazlauskas turned it totally upside down, winning the league with offensive game, smart defense. It was innovative, brave, that change of direction, going against the trends and beating them all, beating big teams was elite alone. But it was taken a bit too cautious by foreign bball circles. Again, nowadays, top clubs would be after him right away, but back then it was seen a bit like one hit wonder or smth, nobody really wanted to change the whole concept. The same story with NT, he was amazing being able to adjust to the rosters he had - once he could play fast, creative game, like in his first stint, then like in last reign, he could totally change the gameplan, which looked to be doomed to fail, but still reach decent results. Afterall, it's kinda rare case when coach had success in both - coaching club and coaching NT. It's damn tough and shows how versatile coach is.
I won't compare Kazlauskas with Jasikevicius. One is a legend, other is on a way to become such. The difference is that for Saras is easier to be in a spotlight nowadays, unlike Kazlas, he surely will get all the chances he deserves abroad and I believe he'll take it

[Straight forward]

Seems like roster selection is done.

PG. Walkup, Lekavicius, Jokubaitis
SG Grigonis, Vasturia, Dimsa
SF Garino, Milaknis, Lukosiunas
PF Hayes, Rubit, Jankunas
C Lauverne, Geben, Blazevic

Despite a bit of lack of facilitating and pure creativity in both Walkup and Lekavicius, I like position 1. Both are growing players yet already established. I think Walkup will be OK at 1 with a bit more freedom. If he survived Saras strict ballgame, he will survive a bit more uptempo (I believe) and liberal BB at 1. Lekavicius should run more as well and he likes that. Jokubaitis hopefully can give decent 10min and sometimes to have a great games here and there. Solid position.

Grigonis makes this position intriguing because he may go for some 14-16ppg kinda season if he will be unleashed more and will have more touches and ISO situations. If Grigonis would collapse it would huge blow because both Vasturia and Dimsa are not established EL players and at the moment I have no idea whenever they will actually become permanent EL players. Under Jasikevicius, they would have expressed role at the mid of the season and would benefit the club, now it's 50/50. Kinda see very up and down season for those guys. Questionable position to say the least, specially that Milaknis and Lukosiunas won't provide much there as well.

SF seems to be decent with proven players in Garino, who is also a glue guy I assume. I hope he would have a good shooting season, because his mechanics looks great, but his accuracy goes up and down each Euroleague season. Milaknis will deliver a little bit. Vasturia hopefully as well. Lukosiunas is a wild card. I think average position, depending whenever Garino can give bigger offensive boost than he used to in Baskonia and whenever Vasturia will actually contribute.

PF Seems to be nice. I like both Hayes and Rubit. Both can switch at D, both can stretch the floor a little bit, both are good defenders (Rubit great shot blocker). Jankunas hopefully can be decent for a little role at PF/C for some minutes. This position is good, IMO.

C: As already mentioned by various people centers position seem to be too traditional, too slow, filled with rather similar players. Maybe Lauverne can go some vegan and to be more mobile as he used to be, I don't know, but none of them can switch, none of them are great defenders. Pretty crappy position to be honest, unless Lauverne would really surprise. Expect Rubit finishing the games at C.

Overall, I think Zalgiris staff made what I expected. Solid job under corona and Saras less circumstances. As I said I like the risk with the coach, he should bring interesting things, even though he may fail big time as well. The roster didn't exceeded my expectations, but really match them. I think Walkup, Lekavicius, Grigonis, Hayes, Milaknis (and proven EL players as garino, Rubit and probably Lauverne) gives Zalgiris that solid ground to expect to do at least OK. Almost all established EL players are growing players and poised for strong season and everything else depends on the new coach, how he will utilise those mediocre guys like Dimsa, Vasturia and young guys like Jokubaitis, Blazevic. I could see the depth problems as a threat (imagine Dimsa, Vasturia, Blazevic, Geben, Lukosiunas, Jokubaitis, Jankunas struggle...none of them are established EL players yet, IMO, and Jankunas may be too washed out already), but overall I think pretty optimal take with some risk under current circumstances

[Mindozas]

Schiller seems to implement much faster game, more counters, that might help to hide creative PG missing, but in half-court offense there might be problems. Remember last game vs Zenit. Or some games before triples started to fall. Oh boy. I'd gladly push Walkup or Lukas to SG instead of Vasturia and would've added one real PG to run the offense. But that's my view, maybe coach and P-Mo are ok with current and will surprise me. Other than that it looks ok. Only worry is injuries. I'd have been very happy to see Garino signing in 2019, guy definitely had lot of potential, then followed by great World Cup, but another injury of the same knee he had before, it all in such relatively short stretch is worrying for sure. Maybe this break helped him to heal it properly, he is young enough, but if smth will go wrong it will cost a lot. Also heard he is not that cheap. So a gamble here.
Wrote about Lauvergne and the same issue already too. Other than that, I absolutely don't see any problems with such C line, it's like experts like Vysniauskas forgets that Rubit can easily play 5 and did a lot of it in Bamberg. Lauvergne also looks like lost some kg, at least from videos, maybe will be faster a bit, will revive his shooting touch. He wasn't worthless at it afterall back in the days, when even played 4 for some stretches. It's mostly psychological issue. Anyway, key is no injury, then I believe we'll be fine with frontcourt. Btw, intriguing to see what impact of such long break will have on Jankunas. Finally no need to rest cause of injury, heal smth, only practice and prepare. Some says in first sessions he again looks a bit faster than a snail
I also expect Grigonis to lift his number to some 15ppg, he seems to be ready to take that leader role.
Btw, Jokubaitis revealed that some players might still be loaned. Interesting. Maybe Blazevic, cause if Rubit will have minutes at 5, for him playing only in LKL is pretty worthless

Overall, interesting season infront of us. Looking at other clubs creating solid teams, and having no magician Saras on helm, I don't see us seriously fighting for PO, but I hope to stay in contention for it as long as possible

[Shawshank]

Mindozas

Jankunas is 36.5 old age now he can rest as much as he wants it won't help

Jankunas age is same as Songaila and Javtokas was last year in Zalgiris. I expect him looking similiar to those 2 in last season.

If you play Rubit at center, what zalgiris gonna do with 4 centers Lauvergne,Geben,Jankunas,Blazevic on the bench?


Obviously plan is to play Rubit at pf.Otherwise frontcourt doesn't make sense.

I agree with Vysniauskas front court looks too big and slow for today's standards atleast on paper.