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Euroleague Regular Season: Week 29

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  • Originally posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Larkin would have killed anybody to have such a career like Mirotic. I admit though that Larkin had great half of a season. But on the other hand, he would still rather be solid bench player in Nba than star in Efes.
    This is true but I do think that if you offered him 12 years being an NBA backup or 10 years of that plus two as the most lauded player in Europe he'd choose the latter. Probably.

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    • Originally posted by Jazz View Post
      This is true but I do think that if you offered him 12 years being an NBA backup or 10 years of that plus two as the most lauded player in Europe he'd choose the latter. Probably.
      Larkin was NCAA superstar and his father was baseball superstar, so ending in Europe is more or less nightmare scenario for him. He has for sure enjoyed this year in Europe, but when solid offer comes, next minute he will be in Nba. And he won't get staring position there.
      previously known as Beno

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      • Originally posted by Killer Bob View Post
        Larkin was NCAA superstar and his father was baseball superstar, so ending in Europe is more or less nightmare scenario for him. He has for sure enjoyed this year in Europe, but when solid offer comes, next minute he will be in Nba. And he won't get staring position there.
        He doesn't seem to be hating it that much.

        Somewhat offtopic but:
        I know you're a big advocate for European players going to the NBA but how would you assess the club career of someone like Calderon who spent most of his career on non playoff teams in the NBA and didn't win any big domestic or continental trophies in Europe (obviously a hugely decorated international career) VS many of his peers who didn't hang in the NBA for long (or at all) but who won a lot more trophies. You're a Real fan but do you think Llull should have tested himself in the NBA?

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        • Originally posted by Jazz View Post
          He doesn't seem to be hating it that much.

          Somewhat offtopic but:
          I know you're a big advocate for European players going to the NBA but how would you assess the club career of someone like Calderon who spent most of his career on non playoff teams in the NBA and didn't win any big domestic or continental trophies in Europe (obviously a hugely decorated international career) VS many of his peers who didn't hang in the NBA for long (or at all) but who won a lot more trophies. You're a Real fan but do you think Llull should have tested himself in the NBA?
          For Americans coming from superstar level in NCAA to Europe, is like coming from Euroleague to Slovenian league for Europeans. Do you believe that anybody in US give a shit how Larkin is playing in Europe? I’m not sure that even his father cares.

          Every sportsman wants to compete in the highest level. Nba is far the highest in basketball. Do you remember Drazen? His status was God-like in Europe, but he still went in Nba in very different times then now, much more difficult for non Americans and started from almost 0. Why? He wanted to compete with the best.

          Imho Llull should for sure tested himself in Nba. But it’s personal decision, so I cannot say much about that.
          Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-05-2020, 02:05 PM.
          previously known as Beno

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          • No, I'm quite aware that the vast majority in America don't care about European basketball. They wouldn't be hiring Nick Nurse ahead of Ettore Messina if they did.
            It's absolutely not Larkin's childhood dream to be a Euroleague star but I'm sure he's found it to be very rewarding, even if he would still jump at the chance to be a backup on a decent NBA team. Very few ex NBA players do what he has done in EL this season.

            And surely his dad does care Bob, that's cold!!

            Yes the NBA is the highest level but my Calderon example is a good one. Multiple seasons with the Raptors where they probably weren't even cracking 20 wins (not his fault), that's not really competing.
            And Drazen had obviously won a lot in Europe before going over.

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            • Originally posted by Jazz View Post
              No, I'm quite aware that the vast majority in America don't care about European basketball. They wouldn't be hiring Nick Nurse ahead of Ettore Messina if they did.
              It's absolutely not Larkin's childhood dream to be a Euroleague star but I'm sure he's found it to be very rewarding, even if he would still jump at the chance to be a backup on a decent NBA team. Very few ex NBA players do what he has done in EL this season.

              And surely his dad does care Bob, that's cold!!

              Yes the NBA is the highest level but my Calderon example is a good one. Multiple seasons with the Raptors where they probably weren't even cracking 20 wins (not his fault), that's not really competing.
              And Drazen had obviously won a lot in Europe before going over.
              I'm not that sure about his dad, he is a baseball legend after all. So bar is set very high for Shane. He for sure loves Shane and everything, but ...

              Drazen would have won very little in Europe, because he would have been with 19 in Nba, if he was born in different time. What has Luka done in Europe is totally crazy and probably unrepeatable for next generation of European young protégés.
              I believe Calderon did the best possible out of his career. We from Europe can say whatever we want but playing in Nba is just ultimate goal for anybody.
              Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-05-2020, 03:32 PM.
              previously known as Beno

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              • Originally posted by Killer Bob View Post
                I'm not that sure about his dad, he is a baseball legend after all. So bar is set very high for Shane. He for sure loves Shane and everything, but ...

                Drazen would have won very little in Europe, because he would have been with 19 in Nba, if he was born in different time. What has Luka done in Europe is totally crazy and probably unrepeatable for next generation of European young protégés.
                I believe Calderon did the best possible out of his career. We from Europe can say whatever we want but playing in Nba is just ultimate goal for anybody.
                It's a good point about how Drazen would have gone over much earlier but isn't the flip side of that where some players are still going over too early?

                Yes, with Calderon there's no doubt that to play in the NBA for so long is a huge achievement (especially as a European player) but I don't think a lot of his peers would have sacrificed the possibility of European glory for an NBA non playoff team for so long. But I think you're right that this is changed for the current / next generation.

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                • Originally posted by Jazz View Post
                  It's a good point about how Drazen would have gone over much earlier but isn't the flip side of that where some players are still going over too early?

                  Yes, with Calderon there's no doubt that to play in the NBA for so long is a huge achievement (especially as a European player) but I don't think a lot of his peers would have sacrificed the possibility of European glory for an NBA non playoff team for so long. But I think you're right that this is changed for the current / next generation.
                  I believe every young player, international or American, have the same dream. Nba. No one is dreaming about winning Euroleague.

                  Going there too soon? I don’t think so. Nba draft system is evaluating younger players higher. Younger you are, better prospect you are and consequently more chances you get. Top picks get far more chances than second rounders and it’s very unlikely to be top pick if you’re 22 years old. Times has changed a lot. International players are getting a lot of opportunities, if they’re good, so staying in Europe doesn’t make much sense for top prospect anymore.
                  previously known as Beno

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                  • Originally posted by Killer Bob View Post
                    I believe every young player, international or American, have the same dream. Nba. No one is dreaming about winning Euroleague.

                    Going there too soon? I don’t think so. Nba draft system is evaluating younger players higher. Younger you are, better prospect you are and consequently more chances you get. Top picks get far more chances than second rounders and it’s very unlikely to be top pick if you’re 22 years old. Times has changed a lot. International players are getting a lot of opportunities, if they’re good, so staying in Europe doesn’t make much sense for top prospect anymore.
                    A slight exaggeration there. Yes, the vast majority of young players have those NBA dreams. But don't you think that, for example, young Anil Cakmak who goes to watch his beloved Fenerbahce twice a week, dreams of some day winning the Euroleague with his favourite team as well?

                    Yes the NBA draft system evaluates players but there still has to be a risk of going to soon. I haven't really followed him but perhaps someone like Dragan Bender could have waited another year or two before moving. IIRC he wasn't even playing much for a bad Maccabi team before he went. Saric and the Bogdanovic twins waited much longer and it's going well for them. I hear what you are saying about chances but you have to be at least somewhat ready to take them.

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                    • Originally posted by Jazz View Post
                      A slight exaggeration there. Yes, the vast majority of young players have those NBA dreams. But don't you think that, for example, young Anil Cakmak who goes to watch his beloved Fenerbahce twice a week, dreams of some day winning the Euroleague with his favourite team as well?

                      Yes the NBA draft system evaluates players but there still has to be a risk of going to soon. I haven't really followed him but perhaps someone like Dragan Bender could have waited another year or two before moving. IIRC he wasn't even playing much for a bad Maccabi team before he went. Saric and the Bogdanovic twins waited much longer and it's going well for them. I hear what you are saying about chances but you have to be at least somewhat ready to take them.
                      You are totally right. There are many guys who went too soon to the nba and disappeared or at least never reached their potential. Its a question of patience to stay focussed 2-3-4 years without playing. The main point in playing in the nba is having a ready body. Bender was one of the most skilled Bigs that i saw but he wasnt ready and he obviously hasnt prepared himself.

                      Many of this very skilled 97 born generation failed. Furkan Korkmaz of the Sixers for example had to wait 3 years to play and had his break out this season with 10 points average and he needs 10 pounds more. Papagiannis failed, Bender failed, Markkanen developed his body but he doesnt like contact what limits him heavily. Hell survive i guess. All this guys were much more skilled than todays guys but many of them went too learly like i said.

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                      • And some guys didnt want to go to the NBA although they could have a solid NBA career. Bodiroga, Navarro (returned to Europe although he had offers), Diamantidis, Sergio Llull Fran Vasquez in order to call some names.

                        So there are player who wants to stay in Europe and compete for title there instead of being a bench bitch in the NBA and there are also guys who went too early and failed big time.

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                        • Originally posted by Toruko View Post
                          And some guys didnt want to go to the NBA although they could have a solid NBA career. Bodiroga, Navarro (returned to Europe although he had offers), Diamantidis, Sergio Llull Fran Vasquez in order to call some names.

                          So there are player who wants to stay in Europe and compete for title there instead of being a bench bitch in the NBA and there are also guys who went too early and failed big time.
                          Times have changed. Big time. It's much easier for international players in Nba now. Many fail for sure, but many Americans fail too. There's almost no hesitation for top European prospects to go in Nba as soon as possible and for a good reason too. How many young kids are getting important minutes in Euroleague? Not many. Just look at Fener. On the other hand, if you're top Nba draft pick you will get a lot of opportunities almost for sure. It's of course on you to take them. Nba wants young prospects to develop them in stars. It's star driven league. So staying in Europe, if your aspirations is to be a top player one day, has no sense. Players like Bender wouldn't be nothing special in Europe too. He was playing in Maccabi B team, before he went in Nba. How is that possible, if he really was that good? He was drafted that high because Suns believed, he's new KP. Obviously wrong, KP was 10x better player before the draft.
                          Last edited by Killer Bob; 04-06-2020, 07:20 AM.
                          previously known as Beno

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                          • I believe KP also didn't show that much in Europe, he had some good performance in ACB but still no signs of the beast he was gonna be and he was quite under the radar of the big clubs. Maybe he was still growing and his team protected him idk. On the other hand Bender, I've written many times about him, is a big mystery to me. I know that youth tournaments are tricky but he looked to me like a no miss case. And in fact he looks like a totally different player than what he looked like as a teen, back then he was greatly athletic for his size, now he is agile but that's it, and he is totally soft, he had a huge confidence and fantastic feel of the game, great passng insticts that are nowhere to be found now, while he totally struggled with his shot at 16, he improved it some years later and by now the only thing he can do on a good basis is shooting 3s. To me, something within his development went completely wrong and he has totally lost his confidence, he may still has some chance to rise up if he finds the proper environment.

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                            • previously known as Beno

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                              • Quote from link above

                                it’s still not known in what manner it will be concluded regarding the standings, proclaiming the champion, relegation zone and the allocation of European tickets.

                                Virtus should be the champion imo, they were the best team in regular season.

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