Euroleague Regular Season: Week 26

[Adon]

Can we please stop with this bullshit, comparing Pao's players salaries with Real's whole budget.

I guess you're totally unimpressed with Obra's era in Pao too?

Sorry to say, your comment is completely stupid. You can see my opinion and admiration for Real if you look my first post in this thread.

I suppose neither you or mrchacho get what I mean, but compering the record of Lasso vs Pitino, when Pitino has come in the middle of the season both times and he didn't even build his team with the given budget, is the same bullshit as your last guess.

Btw, the budget is completely irrelevant to quality, expectations, targets, placements and such, as we all know

[Mr Chacho]

Congrats. Another win vs a team with one third of your budget, which is targeting to be in top-8. That's something!
And the comment about the record of Lasso vs Pitino is meaningless for anyone except you, as it seems.

Bilbao beat us once and they were close at spanish Cup again with one third of your budget (or less). And the same goes to Joventut.

Calathes earns more than Campazzo, amazing.

[Adon]

Bilbao beat us once and they were close at spanish Cup again with one third of your budget (or less). And the same goes to Joventut.

Calathes earns more than Campazzo, amazing.

Really? Then you are right about everything.

[Killer Bob]

Sorry to say, your comment is completely stupid. You can see my opinion and admiration for Real if you look my first post in this thread.

I suppose neither you or mrchacho get what I mean, but compering the record of Lasso vs Pitino, when Pitino has come in the middle of the season both times and he didn't even build his team with the given budget, is the same bullshit as your last guess.

Btw, the budget is completely irrelevant to quality, expectations, targets, placements and such, as we all know

I don't believe many Pao fans are admitting that they have won all titles just because they had top budget. But that wasn't the reason for my post. Pao doesn't have 1/3 of Real's budget, what was your claim. L'equipe article was just incredibly wrong. Some numbers net other gross. Or do you really believe that Pao's gross salaries are under 10 mio?

If I'm not mistaken Mr. Chacho was talking about last 3 years, not only this season. And loosing 10 in a row is kinda embarrassing for a club like Pao, no matter what circumstances might be. If they meet again in playoffs, good luck with explaining how Pao is 1-15 in last 5 seasons in playoffs because of the small budget.

[kzav]

I think the answer is somewhere in between. There should be no argument that a team that has more resources can attract and maintain better players; not only does Real have a healthier budget, they play in a more attractive, competitive league that will draw more of the elite.

The fact that Calathes (and any X player in Greece specifically) may earn more than a Barcelona or Real player in isolation may happen; this is because Panathinaikos/Olympiakos as mentioned play in a less attractive league and players will require a higher salary to sign and renew with these clubs.

On the other hand, if money was the only factor in basketball or any other sport for the matter, then what's the point of competing anyway. We should award the trophies to the richest clubs in September and go home and watch Sex and the City boxset.

Zalgiris is a good example of a solid team, with a good coach, a determined well trained team that can challenge opponents that have much higher budgets.

To conclude, Panathinaikos is at a slight disadvantage over Real, as we may have been at a slight advantage a decade ago. The fact that Calathes may earn more than others bears no relevance; it is the overall amount of financial resources that will help towards forming a balanced team. Personally, it is a compliment that Real fans will celebrate these victories against us and taunt us, because it means they respect us and consider us a team worth beating. If these victories were ignored, then truly it would be a sign that we have fallen in status - because in strength we already have.

The fact around Pitino is indeed unfair as well. As Adon said, there is no direct comparison and also zero point in doing so. I can understand a Laso vs Obradovic or Obradovic vs Itoudis discussion but to compare what is essentially a newcomer to Euroleague who never had a full season with the club against an established coach with Real for years is neither here nor there.

[Mr Chacho]

I don't believe many Pao fans are admitting that they have won all titles just because they had top budget. But that wasn't the reason for my post. Pao doesn't have 1/3 of Real's budget, what was your claim. L'equipe article was just incredibly wrong. Some numbers net other gross. Or do you really believe that Pao's gross salaries are under 10 mio?

If I'm not mistaken Mr. Chacho was talking about last 3 years, not only this season. And loosing 10 in a row is kinda embarrassing for a club like Pao, no matter what circumstances might be. If they meet again in playoffs, good luck with explaining how Pao is 1-15 in last 5 seasons in playoffs because of the small budget.

Thank you, Bob.

And about being an irrelevante team, Montepaschi's Siena GM said once in a EL deseo back in the 2000's: "The best team you can get un the draw is Real Madrid. Money from a full court, legendary team and easy to beat".

Thats to be an irrelevant team.

[R1ou]

We are talking a lot about benches, but it’s much easier explanation. Put Campazzo and Tavares in Pao instead of Calathes-Papagiannis or in Fener instead of Sloukas-Vesely and both clubs would become top4 contenders instantly and Real would have regressed.

That's a pure nonsense because Fener have been making the F4 since 2015 with Sloukas / Vesely duo.

[Killer Bob]

when we are talking about Real, people tend to forget how great are they with developing young players, the only big club in last years, where kids under 20 are having important role.

[Killer Bob]

That's a pure nonsense because Fener have been making the F4 since 2015 with Sloukas / Vesely duo.

You meant to say, despite Vesely/Slokas duo? You can change Sloukas/Vesely with Bogdan/Udoh and they would have been in F4 this year too.

p.s. I was talking about this years hypothetical situation.

[Mr Chacho]

when we are talking about Real, people tend to forget how great are they with developing young players, the only big club in last years, where kids under 20 are having important role.

And to find and build great players. Campazzo and Deck came from the argentinian league with 23 each, Tavares was lost in the G-League, Llull was signed from Manresa in the 2nd division, Thompkins from Nizhny, Taylor was kicked out from the NBA and only Maccabi showed a bit of interest aside of us.

Sergio Rodríguez was a lost player before Laso came, Ayón was rejected by Barça, Nocioni was an explayer for everybody, KCRivers from DLeague.

And then Mirotic, Doncic, Garuba, Nakic, Diez, Yusta, Barreiro, Cate.

JCS and AH have done an amazing job this 9 years. Even our fans complains about the fact we only have signed 2 stars in that time (Rudy and Randolph).

[kzav]

I think KillerBob was thinking about Doncic, Garuba, etc. Campazzo and Deck were 23, unknown perhaps, but still. SPanoulis, Lakovic, Diamantidis joined when they were 23, whereas players like Tsartsaris, Batiste shown whilst with the club and previously were nothing special.

Fotsis joined when he was a teenager.

[Mr Chacho]

I think KillerBob was thinking about Doncic, Garuba, etc. Campazzo and Deck were 23, unknown perhaps, but still. SPanoulis, Lakovic, Diamantidis joined when they were 23, whereas players like Tsartsaris, Batiste shown whilst with the club and previously were nothing special.

Fotsis joined when he was a teenager.

The easy thing is to buy stars. Betting for youngsters or for unknown players with potential is the difficult part. PAO did this in the 2000's, and you succeed.

[Demetrios I. Soter]

Guys it was clear that we will get problems on 1 and 5 against the top teams, problems that are significant. but Pitino thought he could get more out of the players and didn't take action btw there were not players availbale.

But what bothers me the most is the current loser attitude, according the motto, we can't win anyway, because the opponents have a lot more budget (there is truth in it, but with will and effort you can annoy such opponents and even win), with this attitude you don't even have to compete and I don't see enough drive on the part of Pitino , it seems he is accepting the defeat more or less.

To the positions:
At 5 Papagiannis is making progress, in any case Pana have to invest in his potential, it is right to let him play for up to 20 minutes. But we need reinforcements here, an athletic rim protector with good defensive attributes and enough height. then as a third option Bentil is not wrong, he has a strong body, no fear and can shoot from outside.

For every position you always need player material with different attributes like in this example. Rim protector/Sizes/Body+Outside scoring

The same applies to the guards Fredette and Rece, two small guards with poor defensive play, plus Papas with nearly no game on euroleague level at the moment.

Either Rece or Fredette will go, because both need a teammate with particularly high defensive skills and sizes. If that is Calathes, he'll go limp at some point. In addition, Deshaun Thomas is also often a black hole defensively.

For the Guards. Well, 1.7 million Fredette, he has not really justice this sum with his performance so far, he is obviously trying on the defensive end, but he is not creative enough on the offensive, he rarely manages to shake off his opponents. He would have to do more that we can say he is a good investment, now we can call it not more than solid. But the risk of his signing was knowing, Tyler Dorsey would probably be the more meaningful choice?

Rece has already announced that he will probably retire.
Willey is actually promising but has not worked in Pana System so far, Pitino tried to use him as a PF but he want more sizes.

Calathes okay, he delivers but he needs support, as a leader he can never be the decisive with his shooting. He should also step a little back in the future, because it is too predictable for the opponents to win if you get Calathes to a bad mood. His current factor is too big for a team. Either he demands too much from himself or third parties expect what he cannot achieve. Honest words should be spoken here. He is a very good player but with clear weaknesses.

For the coming season we urgently need a center (rim protector / rebounder) and a PG
(size / defensive specialist)

In addition, the following places will be vacant: Johnson, Willey, Rautins, Voujauskas and probably also Papas, unless we need someone to keep the seats warm for 800K.

So there will be at least 5 rather 6 changes.
With a little more cash and wise decisions, you can build something much better.

[Killer Bob]

Yes, Pao should change something. Being treadmill team is just not acceptable for club like Pao.

[Toruko]

In order to be successful in Euroleague you need a very good one and a very good five, a secondary ball handler who can shoot. Normally you cant find a guy like larkin who can practically do everything on the court. Every player have deficiencies so you must find a roster that can minimize the weaknesses.

In addition for a good decade you need to keep your coach and find a system. Not only find a roster and keep them but also plan for the future. The only team that has a perfect system is Real Madrid. They have a great scouting system and always buy the best prospects in Europe in young ages. Some go to the nba some stay and some return.

PAOs youth system is not only restricted to Greece but it has also a bad youth system. This also goes for Fenerbahce. So implementing some guys from the youth in these teams is a miracle. The only thing left is find a good coach, keep him, buy some guys who could make the next step and try to make them better.