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Thread: Euroleague Regular Season: Week 24

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    What did Milutinov exactly do in his career to be a parameter for comparison? He won nothing. He proved to be a good rebounder. Did he carry a team? A little, and just in some situations. Nothing more or less. Of course it has to do with their body constitution, it's not their fault but developments in basketball are going that way that those kind of players will get more and more a punishment for their team.

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    Senior Member Mr Chacho's Avatar
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    Someone said that Papagiannis with 22 years old is better than Tavares with 22. That Tavares at 22 were an average back up center.

    NO, Tavares at 22 was way better than Papagiannis. Walter was named AllEurocup 1st Team at that age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arelg View Post
    Othello Hunter UNBELIEVABLE Winner Shot vs Fenerbahce ● MASSIVE WIN ● Maccabi VS Fener
    I still couldn't understand after watching it twice that how did Thomas let Hunter to take the ball that easily, and then he didn't even lift his hands to make it harder for Hunter,

    That Thomas guy literally watches Hunter and he does nothing...

    It's really amazing... I mean even Duverioglu or Lauvergne wouldn't do this...
    FENERBAHE BASKETBALL
    --- 1967, 2010-11(2), 2013, 2016, 2019-20(2) Turkish Cup Champion ---
    --- 1991, 2007-08(2), 2010-11(2), 2014, 2016-18(3) Turkish BSL Champion ---
    --- 2015-19(5) EuroLeague Final Four ---
    --- 2017 EuroLeague Champion ---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    What did Milutinov exactly do in his career to be a parameter for comparison? He won nothing. He proved to be a good rebounder. Did he carry a team? A little, and just in some situations. Nothing more or less. Of course it has to do with their body constitution, it's not their fault but developments in basketball are going that way that those kind of players will get more and more a punishment for their team.
    Well, today he is regarded the best centre in the league. He has the best PIR as a centre in the league with 19,5. Tavarez has 13.
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    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chacho View Post
    Someone said that Papagiannis with 22 years old is better than Tavares with 22. That Tavares at 22 were an average back up center.

    NO, Tavares at 22 was way better than Papagiannis. Walter was named AllEurocup 1st Team at that age.
    Papagiannis would have a 20+ PIR in the Eurocup. Joke comp with average teams. When a nobody like Rasid Mahalbasic is the best centre in the comp (22 PIR), that shows you the level. Next best centre in Devin Williams (17 PIR) who had a 3.3 PIR playing with Buducnost in the EL.

    Hell, if I played in the Eurocup comp I'd even have a PIR of at least 2.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    Well, today he is regarded the best centre in the league. He has the best PIR as a centre in the league with 19,5. Tavarez has 13.
    Milutinov is far from being the best centre in Euroleague, bro I respect your posts a lot (you know basketball and are objective) but are you serious with that one? PIR in a team that isn't even in playoff spots at the moment. I mean, what does it say. He averages slightly under double-double but so what? His usage rate is way higher than of 80% of centres because of Olympiakos playing style. This reminds me of Nedovic's Unicaja seasons where he averaged 20 points. The outcome is quite the same. Meaningless in a team that never won anything.

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    Senior Member Mr Chacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    Papagiannis would have a 20+ PIR in the Eurocup. Joke comp with average teams. When a nobody like Rasid Mahalbasic is the best centre in the comp (22 PIR), that shows you the level. Next best centre in Devin Williams (17 PIR) who had a 3.3 PIR playing with Buducnost in the EL.

    Hell, if I played in the Eurocup comp I'd even have a PIR of at least 2.
    Tavares was one of the leaders who bring Gran Canaria to the Eurocup Finals against Khimki. With 22 years old.

    And about Mitoglou and Printezis. Georgios seemed an average player in Mlaga. Coming back to Oly made him the best PF in the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    You might not be able to stand him but he's on the rise.

    5.2 PIR last season. 8.6 so far this year.

    Same age comparison with Milutinov.

    Attachment 10459

    Same applies to Dinos Mitoglou.

    4 PIR last season. 7.8 this year.

    Same age comparison with Printezis.

    Attachment 10460

    PAO doing a great job developing these two players.
    Stats wont say everything. Of course they will become better in time but a Mitoglu wont most likely be a Printezis and Papagiannis will never be a Bourousis.

    I know Mitoglu from his time in the USA. He was a rebounder and he is a good rebounder right now but he has nearly 0 weapons offensively. Some post moves and an inconsistent but improvable 3 point shot. The thing is Greek bigs doesnt need to be great bigs with skills. The guards can deliver especially Nick. Even with nick he hasnt much to say on the offensive end but i am sure hell become a very good defender. Printezis at that age might be inconsistent but he had his post moves and the quick floater around the rim. So you cant compare both of them. This doesnt mean Mitoglu wont develop but it will take some time.

    Papagiannis makes me even less optimistic than Mitoglu. He is fairly fast for his size is huge and has an improvable hook shot. When I look at his other not skilled properities his motor is not high, neither is he focussed, i cant see struggle or the will of winning. I watched U18/19 games of him back then also against Turkey... his movements are not keener and also not more polished. Thats a clear sign of laziness.

    About his skill level is not much to say. He is a way worse rebounder than Milutinov who was just too weak at that age but he had solid fundamentals. He is a mess on the defensive end. He backs off against much weaker guys, he is way too soft and too lazy and this can hardly changed because its an issue of approach an attitude. Milutinov struggles and fights for every ball. He has very slow legs and cant stay in front of faster player, he cant use his body well. Bourousis should really tell him how to be a good center with slow legs.

    He will always contribute offensively due to his size and the passing skills of calathes or other guards but the points will be more put backs or alley hoops.

    He will play Euroleague and will also deliver here and there but hell never win games for his team. I know this kind of player very well. He doesnt like Basketball, he likes the money from it. There are player in Turkey who has there roles and dont develop anything else in 10 years and I see the same attitude in Papagiannis. Similar examples andrew wiggins, Okben Ulubay etc. The difference is these guys are talented but Papagiannis isnt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    Well, today he is regarded the best centre in the league. He has the best PIR as a centre in the league with 19,5. Tavarez has 13.
    PIR overvalues the one thing Milutinov is good at, rebounds. Also Milutinov will end most games with 0-2 fouls (unless they're against pao in the greek league lol) most often to his team's detriment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    Milutinov is far from being the best centre in Euroleague, bro I respect your posts a lot (you know basketball and are objective) but are you serious with that one? PIR in a team that isn't even in playoff spots at the moment. I mean, what does it say. He averages slightly under double-double but so what? His usage rate is way higher than of 80% of centres because of Olympiakos playing style. This reminds me of Nedovic's Unicaja seasons where he averaged 20 points. The outcome is quite the same. Meaningless in a team that never won anything.
    It's not Milutinov's fault though that Oly is a very mediocre Euroleague team last few years. I really don't say that he is better than Tavares, Tavares is an asset for sure but a very quality one, the best rim protector in the league, Milu also has been held back a lot by his injuries but when he is healthy he is a beast. But even if he stayed healthy all the time he couldn't win the Euroleague title with this Oly team, what does this mean?? About the Papagiannis now, before Pitino came to Pana he was nobody, now at least he is something, maybe if he played in Eurocup now he would dominate but this doesn't say much, I can't compare him with Tavares because they have very different skills, Papagiannis has shown no signs yet that he can become anything close to the rim protector Tavares is, maybe some day he will evolve to that with very hard work, who could know that, but by now there is no such sign at all!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    PIR overvalues the one thing Milutinov is good at, rebounds. Also Milutinov will end most games with 0-2 fouls (unless they're against pao in the greek league lol) most often to his team's detriment.
    Wtf a Pana's fan praising Milutinov and an Oly fan burying him, what kind of surrealism is that??

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    Milutinov is far from being the best centre in Euroleague, bro I respect your posts a lot (you know basketball and are objective) but are you serious with that one? PIR in a team that isn't even in playoff spots at the moment. I mean, what does it say. He averages slightly under double-double but so what? His usage rate is way higher than of 80% of centres because of Olympiakos playing style. This reminds me of Nedovic's Unicaja seasons where he averaged 20 points. The outcome is quite the same. Meaningless in a team that never won anything.
    This remains to be seen. Today there are reports from Greece that Milu has already verbally agreed with CSKA next season so we will see him with a F4 team. Nedovic is a bad example because injuries have stunted his career at Milano. If he was to stay fit he could do wonders. IMO Milu's the best centre because he is the most damaging winning 4 fouls per game (commiting 1.5) which goes to show it's difficult to contain him. Many says he's been wrongly used and should be fed more instead of feeding off offensive boards for his points. He's a much smarter player he's given credit for.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
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    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
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    Never saw something very smart in Milutinovs game. He is an old school Center who works at the rim with decent athleticism but hardly rim protection. He is decent but nothing special.
    Last edited by Toruko; 02-08-2020 at 12:26 AM.

  14. #134
    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    Stats wont say everything. Of course they will become better in time but a Mitoglu wont most likely be a Printezis and Papagiannis will never be a Bourousis.

    I know Mitoglu from his time in the USA. He was a rebounder and he is a good rebounder right now but he has nearly 0 weapons offensively. Some post moves and an inconsistent but improvable 3 point shot. The thing is Greek bigs doesnt need to be great bigs with skills. The guards can deliver especially Nick. Even with nick he hasnt much to say on the offensive end but i am sure hell become a very good defender. Printezis at that age might be inconsistent but he had his post moves and the quick floater around the rim. So you cant compare both of them. This doesnt mean Mitoglu wont develop but it will take some time.

    Papagiannis makes me even less optimistic than Mitoglu. He is fairly fast for his size is huge and has an improvable hook shot. When I look at his other not skilled properities his motor is not high, neither is he focussed, i cant see struggle or the will of winning. I watched U18/19 games of him back then also against Turkey... his movements are not keener and also not more polished. Thats a clear sign of laziness.

    About his skill level is not much to say. He is a way worse rebounder than Milutinov who was just too weak at that age but he had solid fundamentals. He is a mess on the defensive end. He backs off against much weaker guys, he is way too soft and too lazy and this can hardly changed because its an issue of approach an attitude. Milutinov struggles and fights for every ball. He has very slow legs and cant stay in front of faster player, he cant use his body well. Bourousis should really tell him how to be a good center with slow legs.

    He will always contribute offensively due to his size and the passing skills of calathes or other guards but the points will be more put backs or alley hoops.

    He will play Euroleague and will also deliver here and there but hell never win games for his team. I know this kind of player very well. He doesnt like Basketball, he likes the money from it. There are player in Turkey who has there roles and dont develop anything else in 10 years and I see the same attitude in Papagiannis. Similar examples andrew wiggins, Okben Ulubay etc. The difference is these guys are talented but Papagiannis isnt.
    I respect your comments. Maybe my opinion is with green glasses but with Pitino they have both improved immensely. Papagiannis has lost weight from the beginning of the season. Pedoulakis actually said he had put on weight over the summer. IMO if he manages to lose another 10-15 kilos he will gain a better control of his body and become quicker. He doesn't need weight as he has height and can use that more effectively aerially. He does have focus problems and has brain snaps too often but I think he will improve this over time.

    In general the C position is the most difficult of all to learn and players take time to dominate that position. Ofcourse you get your odd freaks in Jokic and Bitadze here and there but rarely can a 23 year old dominate the paint.

    In regards to Mitoglou, he's working both arms with his hooks around the basket. He's finished with his left arm several times in A1 and a couple in the EL but it's not that easy there. His 3p shooting has improved in leaps and bounds. This year his 3p % is at 34.8% improving on 20% last season. In A1 he's shooting at 41,38%. Last year he was at 35,29%.

    Currently Pitino is using him to partner Papagiannis at the C position (Bentil and Wiley are now strictly being used as power forwards. Pitino said that Wiley is being trained from scratch to become a PF) He thinks Mitoglou can best be developed at a C which can open the paint for us as his 3p ability means he can drag out the opposing C's. Papagiannis is working on a 5-6 metre shot and he's doing OK in his first season. This will also force the Tavares' and Tomic's out of the paint as it's more than likely that we will face either RM or Barca in the play offs taking 6th-7th spot and them taking 2nd and 3rd.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
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    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    I respect your comments. Maybe my opinion is with green glasses but with Pitino they have both improved immensely. Papagiannis has lost weight from the beginning of the season. Pedoulakis actually said he had put on weight over the summer. IMO if he manages to lose another 10-15 kilos he will gain a better control of his body and become quicker. He doesn't need weight as he has height and can use that more effectively aerially. He does have focus problems and has brain snaps too often but I think he will improve this over time.

    In general the C position is the most difficult of all to learn and players take time to dominate that position. Ofcourse you get your odd freaks in Jokic and Bitadze here and there but rarely can a 23 year old dominate the paint.

    In regards to Mitoglou, he's working both arms with his hooks around the basket. He's finished with his left arm several times in A1 and a couple in the EL but it's not that easy there. His 3p shooting has improved in leaps and bounds. This year his 3p % is at 34.8% improving on 20% last season. In A1 he's shooting at 41,38%. Last year he was at 35,29%.

    Currently Pitino is using him to partner Papagiannis at the C position (Bentil and Wiley are now strictly being used as power forwards. Pitino said that Wiley is being trained from scratch to become a PF) He thinks Mitoglou can best be developed at a C which can open the paint for us as his 3p ability means he can drag out the opposing C's. Papagiannis is working on a 5-6 metre shot and he's doing OK in his first season. This will also force the Tavares' and Tomic's out of the paint as it's more than likely that we will face either RM or Barca in the play offs taking 6th-7th spot and them taking 2nd and 3rd.
    I like your comments too and your respectful approach all the time. I think we cant be fully objective when it comes to the players of our country. I am also biased in my expectations of turkish player. Thats totally normal.

    Unsurprisingly you watch much more games about both of the guys than i could do. The only thing that I can say is every player has the duty to become the best possible version of himself. Every player has a ceiling and you cant get better with work until eternity.

    But sometimes basketball surprises you like life itself. I was for example a big fan of Vasilis Charalampopoulos. He was undersized for the nba but he really had the leader gene. I expected him to be the successor of Printezis with a higher ceiling but Mitoglou developed much better. So lets wait and see. Soon a generation change will take place in greece. I am really curious how well you handle this period.

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    Well Calathes and Sloukas is all the aces we have at pg. Thankfully they are still young and can play for another 3-4 years until someone else props up. Dorsey will be part of the set up for sure as long as he stays in Europe. There's nothing really available apart from them. The youngsters we have at pg are really weak at the moment. Arsenopoulos and Rogavopoulos are the biggest talents we have at the moment but they are still too raw. We're spoiled for choice.

    As things stand the NT this summer should look like:

    PG Calathes, Sloukas, Mantzaris (He's playing well for Promitheas)
    SG Dorsey, Larentzakis, Pappas (Skourtopoulos hates his guts and Pappas his, calling him an idiot during a game last year but Pitino will call him up)
    SF Papapetrou, Papanikolaou, Thanasis, Giannis*
    PF Printezis, Mitoglou, Agravanis
    C Papagiannis, Auguste.

    *If the Bucks make the finals, he will miss the OQ.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbFl2mO8E0

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    We didn't win a single game against top6 teams. And someone will say it's ok we are good... Obra is guilty for tonight defeat.
    He made at last to shut up one of the best scorers and players in EL by giving sloukas such freedom and role in the team.
    Player who was brilliant beside much better pgs and leaders like Teo and Chacho now has problem with this fucking psycho.

  18. #138
    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    We didn't win a single game against top6 teams. And someone will say it's ok we are good... Obra is guilty for tonight defeat.
    He made at last to shut up one of the best scorers and players in EL by giving sloukas such freedom and role in the team.
    Player who was brilliant beside much better pgs and leaders like Teo and Chacho now has problem with this fucking psycho.
    I couldn't believe the amount of open 3's Fener missed. But still, Fener played against a hospital today and managed to lose. All credit for the "warrior" team this year MACCABI. Still, Sfairo is pushing the players into injury it seems. So many can't just be attributed to bad luck. He did the same to Oly two seasons in a row.

    Next two games for Fener (RM and Valencia) are crucial. If you lose both, it's curtains. The more important game to win is vs Val since they are rivals for 7th-8th spots.

    A 50% reg. season record will suffice. There's even a chance for 8th spot with 16 wins provided you have the benefit of tie breaks against other teams with the same number of wins.

    You have lost 5 games 3 points or less. That means you shit yourselves at the end.

    Armani have the easiest program. They only face 2 teams in the top 8. Fener faces 5. Valencia 4. Fener need to get 1 win more than Armani since you lose the tie break.

    All this considered, if Fener don't win at Valencia they are pretty much done for. This game is a final for Fener.
    Last edited by EverGreen; 02-08-2020 at 02:53 AM.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbFl2mO8E0

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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    Well Calathes and Sloukas is all the aces we have at pg. Thankfully they are still young and can play for another 3-4 years until someone else props up. Dorsey will be part of the set up for sure as long as he stays in Europe. There's nothing really available apart from them. The youngsters we have at pg are really weak at the moment. Arsenopoulos and Rogavopoulos are the biggest talents we have at the moment but they are still too raw. We're spoiled for choice.

    As things stand the NT this summer should look like:

    PG Calathes, Sloukas, Mantzaris (He's playing well for Promitheas)
    SG Dorsey, Larentzakis, Pappas (Skourtopoulos hates his guts and Pappas his, calling him an idiot during a game last year but Pitino will call him up)
    SF Papapetrou, Papanikolaou, Thanasis, Giannis*
    PF Printezis, Mitoglou, Agravanis
    C Papagiannis, Auguste.

    *If the Bucks make the finals, he will miss the OQ.
    Calathes will retire after this tournament. Probably printezis too.

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    And Dorsey + Auguste is not possible at the same time. Both can just play as naturalized player.

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