2020 PBA All-Filipino Cup

[NOiNU]

I agree. He has very underrated handles. I remember when he was left unsigned by TNT after draft night he trained with Mavs with the intention of turning him into a 6’8 SF. Although as everyone would know it’s quite late to convert a 6’7 college center to a wing in just a year. Blackwater actually wanted to bring Danny I in to train Poy Erram after the expansion draft. Imagine Poy with Lakay post moves and mind set with mavs like handles.

The best thing about Poy is he keeps improving through the years. Troy for his part was stagnant for years now.

[analyzed]

And what exactly are the roles of the stretch 4 that Troy can do that Erram can’t?

My post was referring to reps and exposure not skill set. people underestimate or take for granted the impact of how you train and play impacts the role you play.

how often does Eram train not to be primary big on pick and roll coverage, but to stick with a forward ?

[NOiNU]

My post was referring to reps and exposure not skill set. people underestimate or take for granted the impact of how you train and play impacts the role you play.

See? You can’t even answer a simple question. Motherhood statements na naman tayo. Tsk, tsk.

[NOiNU]

My post was referring to reps and exposure not skill set. people underestimate or take for granted the impact of how you train and play impacts the role you play.

how often does Eram train not to be primary big on pick and roll coverage, but to stick with a forward ?

And you assumed he can’t stick to forwards if asked to, right? We’ve been this road before. You are overrating reps. Positions players play vary depending on the needs. It is absurd to pigeonhole a player to a solitary position when he is capable of playing other roles. VERSATILITY is the name of the game in today’s hoops. There is room at the 4 for a 4/5 player the same way there is for a 3/4. Pilit panga si Troy sa 3, severely undersized pa sa 4.

[NOiNU]

What I also like about Poy’s game is that he has a green light to shoot from anywhere. Top of the key, corner, wing etc. He also has the ability to take perimeter players off the dribble. Marcio, Ross. Two of the best perimeter defenders in the PBA and Poy doesnt use his height against these 2. I also liked the fact that he is allowed to bring the ball down.

Things I wish Troy can do as well. Sincerely, I am rooting for Troy as I can see he is a hardworker. It’s just headscratching how he seemed to plateau early.

[ja.he]

IMO, i am not convinced that Erram can play the 4 for Gilas. Have you seen him where he was usually positioned during his Asian Games and his World Cup Qualifiers stints in the defensive end? He is mostly positioned underneath the basket or near of it. What does it mean? He was used as a 5 in the majority of his Gilas stints.

Have you seen him how he defended the opposing 4's? He has very lateral movements. Erram was killed by Zhigulin when the former tried to defend the latter outside of his (Erram) defensive zone. SMB's guards just by-passed with him when he (Erram) to step outside the shaded lane in defense.

Yes, he is a good defender, VERTICALLY as he has a very good timing to block shots and that's why he has to stay around the shaded lane. However, his lateral movement in defense is quite abysmal. That's why he has difficulties in chasing perimeter players and the more mobile bigs.

So if I where the coach, I will put him as a 5 in defense and in the shaded lane and partnered by a mobile forward and a tall swingmen to hide his weakness.

[NOiNU]

IMO, i am not convinced that Erram can play the 4 for Gilas. Have you seen him where he was usually positioned during his Asian Games and his World Cup Qualifiers stints in the defensive end? He is mostly positioned underneath the basket or near of it. What does it mean? He was used as a 5 in the majority of his Gilas stints.

Have you seen him how he defended the opposing 4's? He has very lateral movements. Erram was killed by Zhigulin when the former tried to defend the latter outside of his (Erram) defensive zone. SMB's guards just by-passed with him when he (Erram) to step outside the shaded lane in defense.

Yes, he is a good defender, VERTICALLY as he has a very good timing to block shots and that's why he has to stay around the shaded lane. However, his lateral movement in defense is quite abysmal. That's why he has difficulties in chasing perimeter players and the more mobile bigs.

So if I where the coach, I will put him as a 5 in defense and in the shaded lane and partnered by a mobile forward and a tall swingmen to hide his weakness.

Troy can’t defend the perimeter as well. Ditto with RDO. It’s worse for Troy because he can’t defend the post as well. At least with Erram he can match up with 4s that plays like him thanks to his size.

[analyzed]

And you assumed he can’t stick to forwards if asked to, right? We’ve been this road before. You are overrating reps. Positions players play vary depending on the needs. It is absurd to pigeonhole a player to a solitary position when he is capable of playing other roles. VERSATILITY is the name of the game in today’s hoops. There is room at the 4 for a 4/5 player the same way there is for a 3/4. Pilit panga si Troy sa 3, severely undersized pa sa 4.

Yes i have no apologies for overrating reps, assessors are entitled to to put emphasis on certain factors. if you don't share the same emphasis , you're entitled to have that view , but don't fault others for their preference for putting significant importance on how a player is used and trained. I have my reasons based on historical observations of how big an impact it really is. If i can't be honest on what is important for me , then what's the point of discussion , i might as well just agree with whatever others say is important and not my individual analysis.

[analyzed]

IMO, i am not convinced that Erram can play the 4 for Gilas. Have you seen him where he was usually positioned during his Asian Games and his World Cup Qualifiers stints in the defensive end? He is mostly positioned underneath the basket or near of it. What does it mean? He was used as a 5 in the majority of his Gilas stints.

Have you seen him how he defended the opposing 4's? He has very lateral movements. Erram was killed by Zhigulin when the former tried to defend the latter outside of his (Erram) defensive zone. SMB's guards just by-passed with him when he (Erram) to step outside the shaded lane in defense.

Yes, he is a good defender, VERTICALLY as he has a very good timing to block shots and that's why he has to stay around the shaded lane. However, his lateral movement in defense is quite abysmal. That's why he has difficulties in chasing perimeter players and the more mobile bigs.

So if I where the coach, I will put him as a 5 in defense and in the shaded lane and partnered by a mobile forward and a tall swingmen to hide his weakness.

this is just honest observation, if you are of the opinion that he can't guard 4's and perimeter, absolutely you're entitled for that assessment. And if for some reason one thinks Troy can more reasonably guard the perimeter can't he share that opinion and not be called out as wrong...
BTW if Erram is truly more or equal to Troy in playing the stretch 4, how many attempts do they take from 3 in comparison? basically i am not convinced that ERram is more innately naturally a stretch 4 than Troy, the evidence and eye test certainly does not suggest that. Erram may be a better player and maybe more capable of doing more things but that's not what were talking about

If compared to Ateneo players last season, Erram is certainly more Go (who played almost all center) than he is Navarro.. Plain and simple Tab and Dickel do not view Erram to be remotely close to their envision role of a combo forward like Navarro, Mason or envisioned for Kobe... but they do for Troy .
They see Erram more than lines of stretch 5, like Go or maybe AJ

[NOiNU]

Yes i have no apologies for overrating reps, assessors are entitled to to put emphasis on certain factors. if you don't share the same emphasis , you're entitles to , but don't fault others for their preference for putting significant importance on how a player is used and trained. I have my reasons based on historical observations of how big an impact it really is. If i can't be honest on what is important for me , then what's the point of discussion , i might as well just agree with whatever others say is important and not my individual analysis.

I put premium on the value of reps as well, not as rigid as yours obviously but I understand its importance.

Frankly, I see this discussion as a “lesser evil” sort. I was saying a few weeks back that Troy was our default make do option at the 4 for lack of better options. That means I still have higher regard for him compared to others. Take note of the caveat I had on the post you responded to—“If Erram continues to improve at this rate....”. If that isn’t clear to you, it implies I myself isn’t contented yet and wishes more.

[NOiNU]

this is just honest observation, if you are of the opinion that he can't guard 4's and perimeter, absolutely you're entitled for that assessment. And if for some reason one thinks Troy can more reasonably guard the perimeter can't he share that opinion and not be called out as wrong...
BTW if Erram is truly more or equal to Troy in playing the stretch 4, how many attempts do they take from 3 in comparison? basically i am not convinced that ERram is more innately naturally a stretch 4 than Troy, the evidence and eye test certainly does not suggest that. Erram may be a better player and maybe more capable of doing more things but that's not what were talking about

If compared to Ateneo players last season, Erram is certainly more Go (who played almost all center) than he is Navarro.. Plain and simple Tab and Dickel do not view Erram to be remotely close to their envision role of a combo forward like Navarro, Mason or envisioned for Kobe... but they do for Troy .
They see Erram more than lines of stretch 5, like Go or maybe AJ

The problem is, what you think we’re talking about is predicated on the premise of your own personal wish—a 3/4 player. What good is a stretch 4 that can’t attack a closeout and have a proven unreliable 10% shooting in that level? Buti sana kung nagimprove, which I wish he would in the future.

[analyzed]

Erram is indeed a pleasant find and his improvements are promising. He indeed will be valuable for Gilas at center in the windows, while Kouame, Kai and Aj arent' yet avaialble , He's just not innately a combo forward. yes Troy may be a disappointment , but his failure doesn't actually improve Erram's case to be the combo forward. if Troy fails to make the desired grade, Gilas has to look for someone else and it isn't Erram for the role.. yeah i know were really thin for that position- whether that be - Kobe, Oftana Tamayo , Lucero . Balti or whoever .(i'm just rantng names - not saying they are it or available .

[sajubeads]

Yes, but they are not the be all of basketball. Kaya nga me nadadraft even though they are not that outstanding in the combines. Conversely, there are freak of athletes that are not drafted. Me intangibles yan dahil team game ang basketball.

If you had put it this way beforehand, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Statement mo kasi is definitive na hindi nya kaya maglaro because he didn’t meet your PERSONAL requirements.

Yes, Troy is always mentioned and Erram is not. But like I’ve said—Troy failed to deliver and doesn’t show considerable improvements. Erram on the other hand is improving as time goes by. Plus it’s not like he wasn’t even considered for Gilas before. Who knows, Erram might be in consideration again if he continues this trend. Don’t put cap on people just because they didn’t meet you PERSONAL requirements. YOU ARE NOT THE COACH to begin with.

Erram pros vis a vis Troy:

Taller
Better rebounder
Better defender
Better slasher
Better post player
Continues to improve

Troy:

More athletic
Has experience (although dismal) in WC

I am still hesitant to put better 3point shooter here as it might be a case of Troy hoisting up more shots. Btw, in the WC he put up a horrible 10% on 1/10 shooting. His overall FG% is around 28%. Not the kind of stretch big you like for your team. His 20 mins per game isn’t worth it, IMO.

I don't know why the argument between Troy and Erram... They are successful at TNT because of their defined roles and system...Let's face it Erram is doing well because he is tasked to do things that are within his strength, popping on pick and pop, sealing his man from under, offensive rebounding and putback... To let Erram do Troy's role (at TNT) as Stretch 4 to Gilas would be to much for Erram...Remember all those "better" you mentioned are just in the context of PBA, not sure if Erram has been the better rebounder at Gilas compared to Troy.. Troy was Gilas best local rebounder last 2016OQT. As a defender Erram is can defend the Center spot maybe but can he defend PF , the likes of Hadansade, Watanabe, Delaney type? WELL Troy has at least some quickness to bother them...Iba any depends ng Center sa PFs...ERRAM had his share of Gilas callups and he was far from impressive missing easy gimme baskets from under....So on the context who will be better at PF role for Gilas, I think it would be Troy, but as backup Center role it would be Erram...

[analyzed]

The way Tnt is developing , bolds well for a hybrid national training team disguised or leveraging of a club...

[analyzed]

I don't know why the argument between Troy and Erram... They are successful at TNT because of their defined roles and system...Let's face it Erram is doing well because he is tasked to do things that are within his strength, popping on pick and pop, sealing his man from under, offensive rebounding and putback... To let Erram do Troy's role (at TNT) as Stretch 4 to Gilas would be to much for Erram...Remember all those "better" you mentioned are just in the context of PBA, not sure if Erram has been the better rebounder at Gilas compared to Troy.. Troy was Gilas best local rebounder last 2016OQT. As a defender Erram is can defend the Center spot maybe but can he defend PF , the likes of Hadansade, Watanabe, Delaney type? WELL Troy has at least some quickness to bother them...Iba any depends ng Center sa PFs...ERRAM had his share of Gilas callups and he was far from impressive missing easy gimme baskets from under....So on the context who will be better at PF role for Gilas, I think it would be Troy, but as backup Center role it would be Erram...

Don't blame you for the reaction and post, they're quite different players.. with different roles. comparing skills set of who's better in what (e.g shooting , defending) is beside the point.
Almost every team today (including the PBA) plays 4 out 1 big... so essentially while both Poy and Troy are essentially bigs their roles are actually quite fundamentally different .