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Thread: Euroleague Regular Season: Week 20

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Football is No.1 sport in all ex-yugo countries and it’s no even close. It’s very questionable if basketball is even No.2 sport in Slovenia.
    in terms of success and production of players.
    slovenia never had a football player on doncic's or dragic's level
    serbia never had a football player on stojakovic or jokic or any of the other nba players all these years
    montenegro never had a player on vucevic level
    bosnia has had some football players and not many notable nba players
    croatia had petrovic and i consider bogdanovic a bigger athlete compared to modric
    greece never had football players on diamantidis,spanoulis,papaloukas etc. level,not even mentioning giannis

    only spain has an equal production of players in both sports. check all teams that win euroleagues during all those years. mostly americans with greeks and ex-yugos in+spanish
    in football you can hardly find 1 or 2 balkans in teams that win champions league,most are south americans etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picek View Post
    he was picked so high because Divac is the worst GM in the league.
    and there is hard competition for that title, however he is miles ahead of everyone else.



    if a 36 year old player is the key for Real then Real has some serious issues and/or bad team management.
    he has been playing out of this world last month or even more but if Real is dependable on Rudy then the future is not bright for Real.
    I think the real success of Madrid is to keep the core always together. I also say they must be too old this season but they always manage to prove me wrong. lol

    They have the money to find guys who are too bad for being a serious player for the nba or they raise the best prospects of europe themselves and use them their entire career or for a certain time. Garuba, Tisma or Nakic are the next ones. Think Garuba is too disadvantaged for the nba. Even if he gets drafted next season he either wont try or he will come back after 1-2 seasons. Similar things go to Nakic, Klavzar or Tisma. Would never question the future of real madrid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Football is No.1 sport in all ex-yugo countries and it’s no even close. It’s very questionable if basketball is even No.2 sport in Slovenia.
    guess you are right but anyway no land is the land of basket as ex yu country. yugolavians invented modern eu basket. they played this modern perimentral bball since the arch wanst even invented. nowhere elese born bball star like in ex yu country. so, dont know if bball if 1th or second sport in ex yu, but surely ex yu countries marked eu bball principles and all cuntries follow their principle. among powerhuses ,mta is the lonely club never followed those principles

  4. #164
    Senior Member Mr Chacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picek View Post
    he was picked so high because Divac is the worst GM in the league.
    and there is hard competition for that title, however he is miles ahead of everyone else.



    if a 36 year old player is the key for Real then Real has some serious issues and/or bad team management.
    he has been playing out of this world last month or even more but if Real is dependable on Rudy then the future is not bright for Real.
    I really know that your hate towards Real Madrid make you blind, but we are not in 2022. Rudy is 34, and how Toruko said (someone who doesnt speak from the hate), Real's success is thanks to our core players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saras View Post
    in terms of success and production of players.
    slovenia never had a football player on doncic's or dragic's level
    serbia never had a football player on stojakovic or jokic or any of the other nba players all these years
    montenegro never had a player on vucevic level
    bosnia has had some football players and not many notable nba players
    croatia had petrovic and i consider bogdanovic a bigger athlete compared to modric
    greece never had football players on diamantidis,spanoulis,papaloukas etc. level,not even mentioning giannis

    only spain has an equal production of players in both sports. check all teams that win euroleagues during all those years. mostly americans with greeks and ex-yugos in+spanish
    in football you can hardly find 1 or 2 balkans in teams that win champions league,most are south americans etc.
    I would argue that your arguments is irrelevant. The ability to produce a top talent at a given sports doesn't neesserally implies that this sport is more popular.
    The top Judo fighter or Olympic sailer that came from Israel is much better than the top football/basketball player, but nobody thinks that Judo/Sailing are our #1 sports.

  6. #166
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picek View Post
    he was picked so high because Divac is the worst GM in the league.
    and there is hard competition for that title, however he is miles ahead of everyone else.



    if a 36 year old player is the key for Real then Real has some serious issues and/or bad team management.
    he has been playing out of this world last month or even more but if Real is dependable on Rudy then the future is not bright for Real.
    The problem for Real is Llull. A legend with a special treatment. Deservedly, but it's slowly becoming a big burden. Real is consequently having only one real Pg, which might prove costly in the end of the season.
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  7. #167
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saras View Post
    in terms of success and production of players.
    slovenia never had a football player on doncic's or dragic's level
    serbia never had a football player on stojakovic or jokic or any of the other nba players all these years
    montenegro never had a player on vucevic level
    bosnia has had some football players and not many notable nba players
    croatia had petrovic and i consider bogdanovic a bigger athlete compared to modric
    greece never had football players on diamantidis,spanoulis,papaloukas etc. level,not even mentioning giannis

    only spain has an equal production of players in both sports. check all teams that win euroleagues during all those years. mostly americans with greeks and ex-yugos in+spanish
    in football you can hardly find 1 or 2 balkans in teams that win champions league,most are south americans etc.
    That's because the whole world is playing football and there is no height barrier. Competition in football is just that much stronger so a nation with 2 mio people can hardly produce world stars. But kids in Slovenia primarily play football not basketball. And the same goes for Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia...
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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    That's because the whole world is playing football and there is no height barrier. Competition in football is just that much stronger so a nation with 2 mio people can hardly produce world stars. But kids in Slovenia primarily play football not basketball. And the same goes for Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia...
    Exactly. Entry barrier for basketball is very high.

    Think about it like this. You have 1,000 kids. Out of those 1,000 kids 1 in 120-150 kids will average around 2 meters (if we decrease it to 195cm, it is something like 1 in 100). So basically, in the best case scenario you get 10 kids in 1,000 that might be suitable for basketball (yes, there are guards who are smaller, but also centers that are quite taller, so this is why it averages out). So, out of all those kids you get rought 1% that are meeting the height requirement. Now, out of that 1%, you have to select out those who have motor skills to actually play professional sports. Even the most unathletic basketball players we see, are actually very athletic compared to the general population. Some estimates are that around 1 in 10,000 basketball players that are around 2m tall, make it to the NBA.

    Once you sort all of that out, you come to the mental aspect. Does the kid have the mental strength and grind in himself to go through all of this to become a professional basketball player.

    The worst part comes, that you will mostly get second rate kids, because football will eat up most of them, and the you are fighting with Volleyball and Handball for kids.

    The amount of talent that Ex-Yu and Lithuania especially produce in basketball, compared to their relative size is just amazing. The reason for this is a combination of genetics and a systematic approach to team sports that was present in USSR and Yugoslavia. During the 1950s until the fall of the Berlin Wall, the percentage of youth population engaged in sport activities was HUGE. Putting all those kids into the system, makes it easier to guide them to right sports and a good system breeds talent. This is why so much talent was produced.

    I can tell you a personal example. When I was a kid, there were 32 of us in primary school class. The school had 6 x classes for each grade. So, and average around 200 kids per grade, roughly 50% male. In my class, we had 15 boys, 7 of them trained football, 2 of us basketball, 2 of them handball, 2 guys were into judo, 1 in karate. Only one kid played no sports. When I moved onto high school, we had 12 guys in a class of 30. 5 of us trained basketball, 3 of them football, 1 guy was volleyball. So, a tremendous amount of kids remained into the system of youth sports throughout schooling.

    Sadly, that situation has significantly changed with computers and mobile phones...

  9. #169
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    Very good points being made here. Coach, how much would you say socio-economic factors contribute to the success of basketball in ex Yugoslav countries and in Lithuania?

    I'd say though that there is more of an entry barrier in football than ever before. Teams are obsessed with athleticism at the expense of other attributes now. Someone made a great observation in Twitter a while back that many footballers are now too athletic to be playing the sport.
    Football will maintain its dominance regardless but you just have to look at the top twenty rankings in the Ballon d'Or to see that we are not exactly in a golden age.
    I'd also say that Messi isn't any less of an athletic wonder than most basketball players, he just looks more like a typical human being.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    Very good points being made here. Coach, how much would you say socio-economic factors contribute to the success of basketball in ex Yugoslav countries and in Lithuania?

    I'd say though that there is more of an entry barrier in football than ever before. Teams are obsessed with athleticism at the expense of other attributes now. Someone made a great observation in Twitter a while back that many footballers are now too athletic to be playing the sport.
    Football will maintain its dominance regardless but you just have to look at the top twenty rankings in the Ballon d'Or to see that we are not exactly in a golden age.
    I'd also say that Messi isn't any less of an athletic wonder than most basketball players, he just looks more like a typical human being.
    True. Football in the 90s became obsessed with a more athletic approach and analytics to develop new players. So, yes in a sense the entry barrier for football is higher than before as well. Regarding the Messi example, he is a fantastic athlete, but not necessarily super athletic, his gifts are mostly skill related and mental. It doesn't make him a less rare ocassion. A better example would be somthing like Mbappe or Pogba. Those are prime athletes, which happen to be fantastic footballer. The issue with basketball is that it draws from a tiny pool of talent compared to football. For example, football can super athletes who are 170cm or 168cm etc. Noone can deny that a guy like Roberto Carlos or Dani Alves have magnificent athleticism. It is much easier to fing athletic guys if you don't have to account for height.

    Being supper athletic and coordinated at 2 meters is a genetic marvel.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    True. Football in the 90s became obsessed with a more athletic approach and analytics to develop new players. So, yes in a sense the entry barrier for football is higher than before as well. Regarding the Messi example, he is a fantastic athlete, but not necessarily super athletic, his gifts are mostly skill related and mental. It doesn't make him a less rare ocassion. A better example would be somthing like Mbappe or Pogba. Those are prime athletes, which happen to be fantastic footballer. The issue with basketball is that it draws from a tiny pool of talent compared to football. For example, football can super athletes who are 170cm or 168cm etc. Noone can deny that a guy like Roberto Carlos or Dani Alves have magnificent athleticism. It is much easier to fing athletic guys if you don't have to account for height.

    Being supper athletic and coordinated at 2 meters is a genetic marvel.
    Yes, thats true but I was counting balance as athletic skill and that's one of Messi's major attributes. I think he's a good example because he doesn't look at first glance particularly athletic even compared to those other footballers.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    Yes, thats true but I was counting balance as athletic skill and that's one of Messi's major attributes. I think he's a good example because he doesn't look at first glance particularly athletic even compared to those other footballers.
    Messi is not only very athletic but athletic freak. His straight line speed might be average, but his change of direction, speed shifting and deceleration is incredible. He’s combination of great athleticism and great skills. I suspect that growth hormone, which he was taking when he was young, changed his muscles structure. His movement is incredible and interesting enough, he had almost no muscle injuries in his career. Which is strange, knowing how he’s defended and how much is he playing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    I can tell you a personal example. When I was a kid, there were 32 of us in primary school class. The school had 6 x classes for each grade. So, and average around 200 kids per grade, roughly 50% male. In my class, we had 15 boys, 7 of them trained football, 2 of us basketball, 2 of them handball, 2 guys were into judo, 1 in karate. Only one kid played no sports. When I moved onto high school, we had 12 guys in a class of 30. 5 of us trained basketball, 3 of them football, 1 guy was volleyball. So, a tremendous amount of kids remained into the system of youth sports throughout schooling. .
    In addition to all those good points made, beside the genetics and the systematic approach, I think the "interest" is important, too. Following your example above, I had not seen a basketball court until I moved to a big city (of 2 million population) at the age of 15. imagine, I had been in the education system for 10 years by then. and by seeing, I don't mean a proper hardwood court (i saw that one in the university first), I mean a primitive concrete area with a post and a hoop. That did not exist. What we were doing to play basketball is similar to what you'd expect to see in an African tribe documentary. No one knew or cared about bball. That's why we used to have stories like Huseyin Alp, Kerem Gonlum, Fatih Solak, etc who were "discovered" at the ages of 20+ because someone accidentally saw them so tall (all above 2.10m). if this was Ex-Yu, those guys would be playing bball for ages (and making better careers).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    In addition to all those good points made, beside the genetics and the systematic approach, I think the "interest" is important, too. Following your example above, I had not seen a basketball court until I moved to a big city (of 2 million population) at the age of 15. imagine, I had been in the education system for 10 years by then. and by seeing, I don't mean a proper hardwood court (i saw that one in the university first), I mean a primitive concrete area with a post and a hoop. That did not exist. What we were doing to play basketball is similar to what you'd expect to see in an African tribe documentary. No one knew or cared about bball. That's why we used to have stories like Huseyin Alp, Kerem Gonlum, Fatih Solak, etc who were "discovered" at the ages of 20+ because someone accidentally saw them so tall (all above 2.10m). if this was Ex-Yu, those guys would be playing bball for ages (and making better careers).
    In Greece, at least in Athens, bball was the most convenient sport to play, if someone was not a member of a club. There were (and are) countless open courts and the good weather almost through out the whole year is a plus to use them. In my high school, the majority was playing occasionally bball and at least 1 in 5 were playing on a daily basis.
    Perhaps that's a reason for so many good players in a country of small population size, with medium height (contrary to ex-Ygoslavia countries), in which football was much more popular than bball.

    Btw, I find football extremely boring. I came to hate it because of its popularity.

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    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    In Greece, at least in Athens, bball was the most convenient sport to play, if someone was not a member of a club. There were (and are) countless open courts and the good weather almost through out the whole year is a plus to use them. In my high school, the majority was playing occasionally bball and at least 1 in 5 were playing on a daily basis.
    Perhaps that's a reason for so many good players in a country of small population size, with medium height (contrary to ex-Ygoslavia countries), in which football was much more popular than bball.

    Btw, I find football extremely boring. I came to hate it because of its popularity.
    It was the same in Slovenia, everyone was playing basketball. It was a time, when basketball and skiing were even more popular than football. But this times are long gone now, football is light years ahead of everything, basketball in a fight with volleyball and handball for big kids. Even Judo is better organised than basketball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cb1907 View Post
    And I would repeat, FB did lose because of the refs. You are also confirming the refs were bad. While it was for and against, just think about the timing and balance of it against FB. In 1st period for example, was it Barca who made that gap or the referees? Once you constitute enough gap for a team, making false decisions later to recover are meaningless, yet they continued against FB. If you want evidence, just rewatch the foul calls against Vesely, and then watch foul calls against D.Williams. Same match, same referees different approach. Don't forget to watch Vesely's basket foul position which somehow turned to be only a foul by those brilliant referees. Those fouls cases are only few sample cases. They didn't only make calls that are horrible but they also kept on making no calls when they should. 3 of them on the court and no one of them sees a clear foul, traveling? Really hard to believe you can find 3 incompetent referees at the same time and send to a match (and worse repeat that). If you can calculate the bad calls and calls that are not made, you can see what would happen in a match with 6 points gap (and also think if that 6 points gap weren't created by refs beforehand, at the end of game FB wouldn't be after quick triples they lost to score).
    You are right about the calls you are referring to. And wrong about the opinion that this was "premeditated and intentional"
    If there were Barça fans here, they would also be complaining abut the same refereeing.
    Does not change the fact...EL (in general) does not have referees with bad intentions, just bad referees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    I can tell you a personal example. When I was a kid, there were 32 of us in primary school class. The school had 6 x classes for each grade. So, and average around 200 kids per grade, roughly 50% male. In my class, we had 15 boys, 7 of them trained football, 2 of us basketball, 2 of them handball, 2 guys were into judo, 1 in karate. Only one kid played no sports. When I moved onto high school, we had 12 guys in a class of 30. 5 of us trained basketball, 3 of them football, 1 guy was volleyball. So, a tremendous amount of kids remained into the system of youth sports throughout schooling.
    Damn! Only one boy out of 15 does not train in any sports?!? Every time I read stories about people who grew in countries with sports culture, I understand why some countries achieve so much more in many sports even though they are of similar size to Israel. (We love to blame it on genetics, but the probably the level of coaching + sports culture plays a bigger factor).

    I grew before the smartphone era, while many boys at my primary school liked football. People who actually train it were the rare exception. At some point, I was the only boy in my class (~20 boys) who trained sports, a class with 6-7 boys out of 20 that train regularly would be a class of sportsmen.

  18. #178
    Senior Member markkanen's Avatar
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    Speaking of sport popularity, it's interesting to mention that handball is very popular in all northern countries - except Finland, and Basketball and Volleyball are only popular in Finland, and not in Sweden, Norway or Denmark.

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    Handball was here extremely popular simmilar to Volleyball. Now Handball is completely forgotten, noone cares, Volleyball same even we are European Champions (!). Still, my feeling is that Volleyball is behind waterpolo in terms of popularity.

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    Basketball is the most dynamic, elegant and high-skill ball sport out there.
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