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  • #16
    Originally posted by Shawshank View Post
    Yeah those 2 window games againts lkl level opponents would be so dramatic for those youngsters that after gettting their feet wet here, they would be almost ready to play in Olympics againts NBA/ euroleague players in 6 months.
    Long term...read my lips. It's not one year term, or 6 months term, it's a LONG TERM. Use google, dictionary or whatever, but you gotta start to learn to read exactly what is written.

    Adomaitis could prepare someone since 2017 for 2020, but he barely did, not only because he didn't try hard enough, but also it was a bad timing. I give him some credit for giving a shot for Kulboka, Masiulis, Echodas, Birutis, but that's it. Maybe at 2017 it was tough for him to add anything from young guards to get their feet wet, but it's sad that now in 2019 when we have Jukubaitis, Sirvydis, Giedraitis, Velicka or even Jogela (huge guard prospects for LT) we add only one to extended windows list.

    And guys don't be funny with those best players available. Teams are never the sum of best players, never. Team is about the team, the puzzle, something what fits, what makes sense this year and 2 or 4 years in the future. Look at any team. If Jasikevicius would choose best players, he would choose Kalnietis instead of Jokubaitis, or even Janavicius instead some 17-18yo Jokubaitis (couple of seasons back). Off course, that's done because of money also, so better example is NBA. Clubs just giving up with some veterans who can't bring them big wins, fills the salary cap and doesn't allow the team to upgrade the roster with new talent which will bring huge wins in the future if not today. Teams are never the sum of best players. It's way too primitive. On the paper, yes, Gailius can score, but also he can mess up so badly at D and to take such horrid chucking shots that he can mess up the entire chemistry, that's why I can't follow why both Gailius and Valinskas are in. The team is always about the puzzle and tons of criteria, like chemistry, upside, long term impact, building towards improving your weak spots, character, defensive and overall versatility. To gather LKL players and say that for us the only goal is to qualify when we have such opponents as Denmark is a joke. Out basketball in the biggest crisis since 1992 when we consistently balled at absolute elite level for 16 years and even since 2008 got some huge wins like 2010 and 2015, but lately three horrid tournaments and people still can't figure it out some things must be done differently, f.e. like understanding that NT should care about those gems who will lead NT to elite again. They shouldn't plain and primitive care only about how to freakin' beat Denmark (or Belgium with Euroleagu less players) with Gailius, Valinskas and Mockevicius.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 01-17-2020, 01:22 PM.
    LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

    Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
    Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
    Buzelis, Lelevicius
    Murauskas, Sirvydis
    Tubelis, Krivas

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Straight forward View Post
      What you say is all correct in a way, I just stick with other angle, other thesis that long term goal is direct impact to wins. You speak about the wins, but it doesn't come from no-where. The goal is not simply qualify, we most likely would qualify with our C team, let's face it. We want big wins, we want to be good at the big stage, and these steps, these windows is the soil that we must sow. Going with status quo didn't give as anything, zero. We got all the wins in WC quallies, yet had zero new talent to add to 2019 WC team and even more we barely prepared anything to 2020 (OK, Kulboka and Masiulis got some stint, but very little). These windows are too precious just to gather best team (meaning LKL best veterans who are absolute mediocre players in real NT perspective all in) and to trash the second rate opponents. I see it as wasted soil. The priority is to be big in real freakin' tournaments and not to simply wait till our most talented youngsters will find their ways without helping them, this way we will stay at the same bleak level we are at since some...errrr...2008 for another 5 years. We should push it and we barely have anything to lose, we would still qualify. I know Kalauskas would push it, I bet Jasikevicius would do, or Sireika. I even bet we still are heavy favourite against any of Czech rep (Satoransky, Vesely less), Denmark, Belgium even if we pack 60% youngsters and 40% veterans roster as such:

      Kalnietis, Jokubaitis
      Juskevicius, Sirvydis, Giedraitis
      Kuzminskas, Butkevicius
      Kulboka, Masiulis, Maciulis
      Echodas, Birutis
      Again you are missing the point. I'm talking about this window only. I've wrote - in autumn you can kick all old horses and start building the team for 2023-2024, that would make sense. But not now, when team is preparing for OQT. Now our future is exactly Olympics, nothing else matters, you must get the closest team to best one possible. Every coach would do this, there are moments for experiments, there are moments when you can allow yourself it even in top tournaments when you have nothing to choose from, but there are moments when you can't do this. It even doesn't matter that much if we'll win against Czechs or Belgium now, the more important thing is to introduce team to new system. On other hand, if we'll win it, it even will help your idea of rejuvenation in autumn or whole qualifiers, next coach or Maskoliunas will have more freedom for a risk. So again - have patience. If you don't care much about OQT, it's ok, but it's not that long to go till autumn either, when some fresh blood should be in

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Mindozas View Post
        Again you are missing the point. I'm talking about this window only. I've wrote - in autumn you can kick all old horses and start building the team for 2023-2024, that would make sense. But not now, when team is preparing for OQT. Now our future is exactly Olympics, nothing else matters, you must get the closest team to best one possible. Every coach would do this, there are moments for experiments, there are moments when you can allow yourself it even in top tournaments when you have nothing to choose from, but there are moments when you can't do this. It even doesn't matter that much if we'll win against Czechs or Belgium now, the more important thing is to introduce team to new system. On other hand, if we'll win it, it even will help your idea of rejuvenation in autumn or whole qualifiers, next coach or Maskoliunas will have more freedom for a risk. So again - have patience. If you don't care much about OQT, it's ok, but it's not that long to go till autumn either, when some fresh blood should be in
        I've got your point, but how Gailius and Valinskas can contribute to OQT. Do you see a slight possibility for them to be in Kaunas? IMO, it's zero, not with their system BB IQ and their D. I like your idea that now Euro quallies are part of preparation for OQT in Kaunas, but so you have to bring right puzzles, those who not only may help to win against Belgium now, but also have at least some upside or theoretical chances to make OQT roster. I mean position 2 is almost completely opened, it's Grigonis and the deserts...literally (knowing Seibutis collapsed for good most likely). Yeah, we will add Milaknis most likely (again, not some peaking stud to count on it 100%) and who else? Why to exclude the possibility that Sirvydis and Giedraitis may have a shot to make it, specially the latter because he's really good defensively. To me NT is too solid and serious things for such low IQ players like Gailius, Valinskas, Bendzius when it comes to real deal tournaments, so in that sense I even see some Sirvydis, Giedraitis having more chances to be there even if it's not happening most likely at all.
        And lastly, I would be so excited to see what is current Dovydas Giedraitis. The guy who looked rock solid in U19, looked more convincing that Jokubaitis till he sprained his ankle, delivered in whole preparation with Estudiantes and looked good whenever got a chance in ACB it self. How the hell out coaches wouldn't want to "touch" this gem and maybe to give him a seat at 12th spot, or let's say to have him in a camp for those 2-4 practices just to get to know with him. OQT aside, there might be a need of new material for Olympics it self, you do want to know what kind of talent pool you have overall. I would be so eager to see someone like Dovydas Giedraitis, not less than Jokubaitis f.e.
        LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

        Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
        Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
        Buzelis, Lelevicius
        Murauskas, Sirvydis
        Tubelis, Krivas

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Straight forward View Post
          Long term...read my lips. It's not one year term, or 6 months term, it's a LONG TERM. Use google translator
          Now now boy relax don't need to get so upset if somebody disagrees with your dreamers ideas

          Neither Kazlauskas,Neither Sharas is using youngsters in main games .Lkl and friendly nt or some blowout sure.In main games they both use mature players.

          Saying that Jokubaitis was chosen over Kalnietis is just stupid.Jokubaitis is taken as youngster not main rotation player and earns like 10 times less.Jokubaitis don't even play in euroleague even when situation with Pg is horrible.Why? Because not ready.

          As for Mantas he would be usefull for zalgiris right now for 300 instead of getting total fiasco with Perez 400 salary and team left without no true Pg and zalgiris paying price now.

          Nobody was growing players in NT in 00s either..We just had more tallent and stars that's it, don't need to blame Adomaitis now for very poor backourt situation.

          Kazlauskas took all those pg because there was nothing to choose from Vasiliauskas,Juskevicius,Kariniauskas and Lekavicius that doesn't made them players they simply weren't even when they made NT roster.

          Ok we can see now he guest it right with Lukas, but even for Lukas we oviuosly have to be gratefull to zalgiris not Nt one summer where he sitted together with Gailius as 11-12th players and played 0 minutes in winning playoofs.Coach was so impressed with shaky leg Lukas that next summer didnt even invited him.He simply wasn't yet ready and coach saw that in previous tournament and try other young guy and again didn't worked in 2016.

          In Adomaitis years it was easier to choose it was still Mantas and already matured Lukas coach didn't needed to play Kazlauskas guessing game with backup Pg.

          One month's in NT can't do miracles compared to 8 months in club.If player is true deal he will show that in clubs.

          NT is men team for winning not youngsters growing farm.

          Two bad tournaments doesn't mean we have blow out everything of 27 years of building winning culture of our NT.It works how we did over the years, we just need to be patience and stay with it not just go young and tank like some NBA team for 4 years until those youngster will mature.

          No thank you.I don't wanna see 3-4 years of tanking and ale growing for the future and like 7 times of 10 that's leads to nothing...and that's in clubs where you can teach them 8-9 months...what you can achieve in 1,5 months per year teaching them.?

          NT priority is/was diffrent and rightfully so.

          We were seriously competing till last seconds againts elite of world basketball in France and Australia in 2019..Everything is fine just don't blow out everything keep grinding add couple 1-2 pieces and it will pay off.

          Best players should be invited every summer and 2-3 most promissing youngsters as always was and see what they got in men tournaments.But firstly they have shown their level in clubs before seriusly consider them.

          It should be natural process younger player learns from older and mature and eventually takes over veterans.But not like some dreamer who literally believes that some promissing 19-21 old kids have a seriuos chance to compete againts best worlds men players.
          Last edited by Shawshank; 01-20-2020, 05:21 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Straight forward View Post
            I've got your point, but how Gailius and Valinskas can contribute to OQT. Do you see a slight possibility for them to be in Kaunas? IMO, it's zero, not with their system BB IQ and their D. I like your idea that now Euro quallies are part of preparation for OQT in Kaunas, but so you have to bring right puzzles, those who not only may help to win against Belgium now, but also have at least some upside or theoretical chances to make OQT roster. I mean position 2 is almost completely opened, it's Grigonis and the deserts...literally (knowing Seibutis collapsed for good most likely). Yeah, we will add Milaknis most likely (again, not some peaking stud to count on it 100%) and who else? Why to exclude the possibility that Sirvydis and Giedraitis may have a shot to make it, specially the latter because he's really good defensively. To me NT is too solid and serious things for such low IQ players like Gailius, Valinskas, Bendzius when it comes to real deal tournaments, so in that sense I even see some Sirvydis, Giedraitis having more chances to be there even if it's not happening most likely at all.
            And lastly, I would be so excited to see what is current Dovydas Giedraitis. The guy who looked rock solid in U19, looked more convincing that Jokubaitis till he sprained his ankle, delivered in whole preparation with Estudiantes and looked good whenever got a chance in ACB it self. How the hell out coaches wouldn't want to "touch" this gem and maybe to give him a seat at 12th spot, or let's say to have him in a camp for those 2-4 practices just to get to know with him. OQT aside, there might be a need of new material for Olympics it self, you do want to know what kind of talent pool you have overall. I would be so eager to see someone like Dovydas Giedraitis, not less than Jokubaitis f.e.
            Your last paragraph says it all - you are over excited, you can't wait, you eager to see and etc. I told you - have some patience, leave personal wishes aside, be more pragmatic this time. NT is not playing ground for kids, especially not now. Their time will come. They are not ready now. Coaches has set their priorities - it's preparation, not "touching" some gems. Giedraitis barely gets a chance in ACB weakest team, can't break even into match roster on regular basis. His coach also likes him, read that lot of times, but he also acknowledges that he is not ready yet and he sees him everyday. It's not some critic, it's good that at this age he is knocking on ACB door, but it's just where he stands now. Leave him alone for a while, let him play in u20 NT. There is god damn huge difference between being rock solid in u19 and deserve even bench warming in NT.
            I've wrote about Gailius and Valinskas already too.

            Comment


            • #21
              There's no point to answer for a poster who can't read what you write. Either you can interpret the text precisely, or it's a high school. I won't be the teacher here all the time.

              Mindozas, we'll have to settle to disagree. We have a history of taking one or few 19-22yo for OG rosters, how to give a run in soft quallies for one of brightest guards is exceeded effort is beyond me. The same Velicka proved his worth in LKL, how he's not more interesting case for coaches than some Bickauskas is a complete enigma to me. It's not even the case that we can clearly say Bickauskis is surely a better player. To me, not to want to know all possible talent you have is carelessness. F.e. both Sirvydis (well, OK, he's not convincing this season) and D.Giedraitis will be 20yo this summer. There's plenty of occasions when we added such to the final rosters of Olympic teams, and I only ask for a little test in soft quallies or preparation for them. My position is clear, work and your weaknesses, we have holes at backourt, push it for it, don't settle for another blow-out against Denmark without any mark to NT substantial perspective. We're good, let's agree to disagree.

              As for Brazdeikis, I like that he finally did it. In a long run he can be a heck of piece for us, but I barely see him in 2020 OG roster. First, he doesn't want to be in Kaunas, second- he's way too raw. IMO, he would be lost in most cases in FIBA. Sure, you can throw him in for few minutes and see if he's having a huge offensive game, he might have it even now, but generally his D is really bad now and he's too ISO player. He needs a read deal coach and some understainding what is PRO ball, let alone FIBA.
              LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

              Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
              Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
              Buzelis, Lelevicius
              Murauskas, Sirvydis
              Tubelis, Krivas

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Straight forward View Post
                Mindozas, we'll have to settle to disagree. We have a history of taking one or few 19-22yo for OG rosters, how to give a run in soft quallies for one of brightest guards is exceeded effort is beyond me. The same Velicka proved his worth in LKL, how he's not more interesting case for coaches than some Bickauskas is a complete enigma to me. It's not even the case that we can clearly say Bickauskis is surely a better player. To me, not to want to know all possible talent you have is carelessness. F.e. both Sirvydis (well, OK, he's not convincing this season) and D.Giedraitis will be 20yo this summer. There's plenty of occasions when we added such to the final rosters of Olympic teams, and I only ask for a little test in soft quallies or preparation for them. My position is clear, work and your weaknesses, we have holes at backourt, push it for it, don't settle for another blow-out against Denmark without any mark to NT substantial perspective. We're good, let's agree to disagree.
                We won't play Denmark in upcoming window, we will have two, maybe even competitive games, and we don't have a history of taking talented guys to OG just cause they were talented. Everyone who made the roster was either good enough to do this (Sabas, JV) or we had enormous whole in PG position and that was once when Kazlauskas gambled with Kariniauskas, who looked ok in preparation period. The same way he gambled with Vasiliauskas in 2014, Lekavicius in 2015. Simply cause hole at PG was huge and we were looking for solutions for 2016. That's it. Now we don't have to gamble anywhere and we don't have a talented player who could on talent alone even come close to making the final roster like being on final days of preparation with NT. C'mon just don't try to drag Giedraitis this far, it's not realistic. Grigonis made it to OG roster being a starter with 10ppg in ACB. Giedraitis now has long way to go till that, at least start warming the bench on regular basis. If his club is in shitty situation, dead last, nothing works out, so why the heck coach doesn't add Giedraitis to the roster to save the day? Think about that for a sec. Maybe kid is not ready yet for big journeys, even to taste a bit of it? It just looks waaaaay too early for him.
                We're not really agreeing to disagreeing here I guess, cause you point at totally different things. It's not "carelessness" as you call it, it's circumstances when you don't have to force things up and instead - act wise. We don't even have that star-filled backcourt, when you could take some coach favorite to OG and nobody really cared who is waving the towel there. You say you understand that, but you again start all over with this youngsters stuff just to satisfy your curiosity, while coach is responsible for result and that is what matters this summer. I'm just glad that for time being NT coaches are going to my preferred direction and set the priorities they way I think is the best. After OG it will be another story, maybe even some player will surprise us sooner, in 2nd part of the season, then I'll be fine to have such in consideration no matter the age

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mindozas View Post
                  We won't play Denmark in upcoming window, we will have two, maybe even competitive games, and we don't have a history of taking talented guys to OG just cause they were talented. Everyone who made the roster was either good enough to do this (Sabas, JV) or we had enormous whole in PG position and that was once when Kazlauskas gambled with Kariniauskas, who looked ok in preparation period. The same way he gambled with Vasiliauskas in 2014, Lekavicius in 2015. Simply cause hole at PG was huge and we were looking for solutions for 2016. That's it. Now we don't have to gamble anywhere and we don't have a talented player who could on talent alone even come close to making the final roster like being on final days of preparation with NT. C'mon just don't try to drag Giedraitis this far, it's not realistic. Grigonis made it to OG roster being a starter with 10ppg in ACB. Giedraitis now has long way to go till that, at least start warming the bench on regular basis. If his club is in shitty situation, dead last, nothing works out, so why the heck coach doesn't add Giedraitis to the roster to save the day? Think about that for a sec. Maybe kid is not ready yet for big journeys, even to taste a bit of it? It just looks waaaaay too early for him.
                  None is saying Giedraitis is ready. I say - test him in soft quallies, at least get him into training camp, as short as it is. It wouldn't hurt, it's a great chance, you won't want to give time for youngsters just before OQT, but now, why not. Again, we do have huge hole at 2 and backourt's talent overall, testing Giedraitis or Sirvydis at NT environment (second rate environment) would only foster their development and readiness for serious future battles.

                  I have no clue if Giedraitis have at least 1% to make OG 2020 team, but as a coach I would surely like to know. Again, after Grigonis, who will exactly gonna fill 2 position? We'll we again take three non-defensive, one dimentional players in Milaknis, R.Giedraitis, Juskevicius? We'll jack off shots and will play no D. That's not to say some 20yo D. Giedraitis will come and fill the holes, that's to say, the room is open, know all your options.

                  It's not even about how good or bad is Giedraitis, or Sirvydis. Just have some priorities, have a vision, make something out of box when status quo decisions don't work (and it doesn't for a while now). Just to get back to history, 1992 20yo Karnisovas and Pazdrazdis both played in NCAA. None of them were established guys at PROs, they were simply talented. At 1996 20yo M.Zukauskas wasn't some super stud, or generational talent, but he was rock solid and already delivered highly in mid LKL club (I even find some similarities between him and some Giedraitis in a way, both showed some sort of reliability at young age).

                  Don't push punks into NT if they are not ready, but have interest in best upcoming talent, if there's a stage to throw them into fire, do it, specially if the guy delivered in some stages before (NKL, youth level, something higher, like ACB in Giedraitis case, or Kulboka's). The thesis is clear - care about the best young talent, and look for ways to integrate them rather sooner than later. Specially now, when our NT lacks talent. It's contrary, when you have stacked team, you don't really care about faster transition, you do care when you lack talent.

                  BTW, Dzikic won some games when he played Gieraitis early in the season After that, when Giedraitis got injuries, came losses one after another. Just a fun fact though
                  LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

                  Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
                  Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
                  Buzelis, Lelevicius
                  Murauskas, Sirvydis
                  Tubelis, Krivas

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    BTW, long article on Dovydas Giedraitis. It sucks that he can't crack rotation becaue of foreigners restriction now. He really provided and looked solid when got a chance in those 7 games this season, but now he'll have to work only in practices. Maybe since Dzikic out, they will loan him, some Neptunas could use him. On other hand, plenty of quality practices and ability to work on individual skills. I like that Spanish school emphasized physical preparation and the quickness of decision making. I often lack that in Lith school, where we emphasize tactics and shooting.

                    Nors Rimas Kurtinaitis susikrovė lagaminus iš „Real“ komandos dar prieš 25 metus, Madride vis dar aidi Kurtinaičio pavardė. Taip prieš sezoną jauną snaiperį vis pašaukdavo serbas...
                    LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

                    Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
                    Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
                    Buzelis, Lelevicius
                    Murauskas, Sirvydis
                    Tubelis, Krivas

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Straight forward View Post
                      None is saying Giedraitis is ready. I say - test him in soft quallies, at least get him into training camp, as short as it is. It wouldn't hurt, it's a great chance, you won't want to give time for youngsters just before OQT, but now, why not. Again, we do have huge hole at 2 and backourt's talent overall, testing Giedraitis or Sirvydis at NT environment (second rate environment) would only foster their development and readiness for serious future battles.

                      I have no clue if Giedraitis have at least 1% to make OG 2020 team, but as a coach I would surely like to know. Again, after Grigonis, who will exactly gonna fill 2 position? We'll we again take three non-defensive, one dimentional players in Milaknis, R.Giedraitis, Juskevicius? We'll jack off shots and will play no D. That's not to say some 20yo D. Giedraitis will come and fill the holes, that's to say, the room is open, know all your options.

                      It's not even about how good or bad is Giedraitis, or Sirvydis. Just have some priorities, have a vision, make something out of box when status quo decisions don't work (and it doesn't for a while now). Just to get back to history, 1992 20yo Karnisovas and Pazdrazdis both played in NCAA. None of them were established guys at PROs, they were simply talented. At 1996 20yo M.Zukauskas wasn't some super stud, or generational talent, but he was rock solid and already delivered highly in mid LKL club (I even find some similarities between him and some Giedraitis in a way, both showed some sort of reliability at young age).

                      Don't push punks into NT if they are not ready, but have interest in best upcoming talent, if there's a stage to throw them into fire, do it, specially if the guy delivered in some stages before (NKL, youth level, something higher, like ACB in Giedraitis case, or Kulboka's). The thesis is clear - care about the best young talent, and look for ways to integrate them rather sooner than later. Specially now, when our NT lacks talent. It's contrary, when you have stacked team, you don't really care about faster transition, you do care when you lack talent.

                      BTW, Dzikic won some games when he played Gieraitis early in the season After that, when Giedraitis got injuries, came losses one after another. Just a fun fact though
                      And again we go round in circles.... This upcoming window is not for testing. It's for preparation and it's very short one, not few weeks camp. What you mean with "know your options"? You can see with bare eye that Giedraitis, Sirvydis are not ready for such challenges. We know these options, it's XXI century, 3rd decade of it, it's not that we only read about them in magazine. Hold your horses, their time will come, maybe even in autumn. Then you can ask coaches to test them and I'll support your choice, at least what comes to Sirvydis.
                      While compare them with Karnisovas, Pazdrazdis... c'mon. Karnisovas was a stud, he started to play for Statyba at the age of 16, made his debut with NT at similar age in 1989 if I recall correctly, then moved to States as big prospect. It was huge move back then, big recognition. When he came back for 1992 qualifiers preparations, he right away established himself as one of the leaders in NT. Pazdrazdis moved to NCAA later, while in 1992 was also huge prospect and already NT member, player for Statyba, he played for NT since 1991 when we started to play first friendlies after getting back our independence, he was one of the key players there. Of course Sabas, Marciulionis were missing, but still he was no rookie. The same goes with Zukauskas, he was already damn good, not top notch prospect, cause back then we had some hell of the prospects like Jurkunas, Praskevicius at similar position, so Zukauskas was in shadow, also being from smaller town bball school, but he was established leader in good LKL team, pouring some 20ppg (find such now), being versatile at the both ends of the court. Even with NT, if not that superstrong generation hitting the scene in his position with Siska, Stomba, Karnisovas still playing, who pushed him towards more limited role later in NT, more defensive duties, he could've been much more visible player. I barely see any connection with Giedraitis here. That's just crazy to remember how mature and already good some teens/youngsters were in 90s and not one or two, but some dozen of them

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mindozas View Post
                        While compare them with Karnisovas, Pazdrazdis... c'mon. Karnisovas was a stud, he started to play for Statyba at the age of 16, made his debut with NT at similar age in 1989 if I recall correctly, then moved to States as big prospect. It was huge move back then, big recognition. When he came back for 1992 qualifiers preparations, he right away established himself as one of the leaders in NT. Pazdrazdis moved to NCAA later, while in 1992 was also huge prospect and already NT member, player for Statyba, he played for NT since 1991 when we started to play first friendlies after getting back our independence, he was one of the key players there. Of course Sabas, Marciulionis were missing, but still he was no rookie. The same goes with Zukauskas, he was already damn good, not top notch prospect, cause back then we had some hell of the prospects like Jurkunas, Praskevicius at similar position, so Zukauskas was in shadow, also being from smaller town bball school, but he was established leader in good LKL team, pouring some 20ppg (find such now), being versatile at the both ends of the court. Even with NT, if not that superstrong generation hitting the scene in his position with Siska, Stomba, Karnisovas still playing, who pushed him towards more limited role later in NT, more defensive duties, he could've been much more visible player. I barely see any connection with Giedraitis here. That's just crazy to remember how mature and already good some teens/youngsters were in 90s and not one or two, but some dozen of them
                        I didn't say Sirvydis or Giedraitis are at the level of Pazdrazdis (I admit I haven't seen him playing, but Garastas was super high on him, said he could be nearly as good as Marciulionis, but NCAA screwed him) or M. Zukauskas. They are not (even though I wouldn't be surprised both would achieve more than early bloomer M.Zukauskas who ended up to be solid El player, but nothing ever more), let alone Karnisovas who was a true stud and I never said otherwise. But it only justifies my point that adding some 20yo is not some crazy idea, like some hiper conservatives here (with a bad memory also) declares here. And, no, I'm not sure D. Giedraitis is surely not ready. I can't say this. OK, he's just scratching ACB surface at the moment, but let's consider others candidates at SG spot for a second, before saying D.Giedraitis in NT this season is complete non-sense. It's Milaknis, who delivers mainly in Zalgiris, in NT he often completely lost and huge liability at D (seen the worst of it in 2017), nevertheless he seems to be a lock and that's OK under Maskoliunas. But who else? R. Giedraitis is no-defence one trick pony who barely can provide anything what SG must provide other than shooting which even at 27 age didn't look reliable at NT level. He's more of SF and I would like to see him running at this position in the first place. Then Juskevicius who basically wouldn't even get the spot in ACB because of his poor D, limited IQ and streaky shooting? The same Dulkys, who is a bit better defender, but even more limited offensively? There's no even Seibutis, who is probably done for good at high level. So it's not like we need a 20ppg LKL stud to have a shot to compete for the spot. If that would be 90's you would need to be such to have a shot, now the talent level is way off, like waaaaayyyyy off. I could argue that D.Giedraitis looked more PRO ready than R.Jokubaitis in U19 WC. He played impressive D, he looked sturdy, determined, high IQ, emotional leader, efficient scorer guard till he sprained his ankle. Jokubaitis provides 7ppg in 15min for Zalgiris, the team which every opponent meats with additional motivation, meaning Jokubaitis' PER 36 in LKL is 17ppg and. I could argue that unleashed Jokubaitis could be +10ppg player for such club as Neptunas/Liekabelis/Juventus. And my point is that D. Giedraitis is much more ready physically, he's way better defender (it's not even close), and may be even more efficient scorer than Jokubaitis himself. In the first three games of U19 when Giedraitis was healthy, he was the stud, he was the leader who not only lead NT defensively big time, providing gustiness and toughness, but dropped 45pts, while Jokubaitis 27pts. I wouldn't be surprised to see 12-15pts scoring sheet of Giedraitis in mid section LKL club this season with a solid D. Even in ACB, with his limited playing time, 8 games , 8 minutes, he manages to score 3pts with ridiculous 1.6 shot per game (63,6% threes), meaning his PER 36 is 12,6ppg (and it's a deserts between ACB and LKL, one stands at no.1 domestic league, other at 11). My point is, he's much more ready than people can imagine who haven't even observe him closely. I saw him in U19 and I've seen a ready do go stud, rather impressive early bloomer (again, his famous 16yo campaign in NKL), then he stepped onto ACB court with cold nerves, providing very solid, vet's like D, and knocking down his shots when he got any.
                        To sum up, how many 2 guards in Lithuania even scratching the surface of ACB? That's right, none, and except Grigonis who would be ACB stud, it's an open question whenever any of our guards could sign there, even Milaknis at this age. How come the one who does, and does it with ridiculously efficient and extremely promising fashion, doesn't get the attention from ort backcourt crippled NT, is rather beyond me. What if he's balling more convincing than all these extremely impressive "other than Grigonis" options at 2? I just remind you, Milaknis was a complete sieve at D in 2017, literally unplayable, and so was Juskevicius. I'm good with Milaknis under Maskoliunas, at least for a shot, but that punk 19yo D. Giedraitis is better defender already than Milaknis, Jukevicius, R. Giedraitis. Fact. To sum up all this, our youngest studs must be in soft quallies (IMO), let alone freakin' extended list. But that comes with my knowledge, I bet Maskoliunas didn't study Giedraitis as closely as I did.

                        BTW: Just for a record, and to be completely precise, M.Zukauskas as 19yo averaged 12,7pts in 29:22 minutes. Siauliai were 4th best club in LKL. I really would love to see what Sirvydis, D.Giedraitis or Jokubaitis would provide at Juventus, Lietkabelis type of club with 29 minutes. Those punks could really go for such numbers, maybe even better. With curren Jokubaitis scoring rates, he would average 13,5pts in 29 minutes. That's another imply how big those prospects are, and I'm at least happy to see Jokubaitis in those windows.
                        Last edited by Straight forward; 01-23-2020, 03:02 PM.
                        LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

                        Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
                        Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
                        Buzelis, Lelevicius
                        Murauskas, Sirvydis
                        Tubelis, Krivas

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Straight forward View Post
                          I didn't say Sirvydis or Giedraitis are at the level of Pazdrazdis (I admit I haven't seen him playing, but Garastas was super high on him, said he could be nearly as good as Marciulionis, but NCAA screwed him) or M. Zukauskas. They are not (even though I wouldn't be surprised both would achieve more than early bloomer M.Zukauskas who ended up to be solid El player, but nothing ever more), let alone Karnisovas who was a true stud and I never said otherwise. But it only justifies my point that adding some 20yo is not some crazy idea, like some hiper conservatives here (with a bad memory also) declares here.
                          It justifies no point of you. Only that either you forgot what we were discussing about, either you just can't admit where you were wrong. You wrote that we had examples of talented kids taken to Olympics almost on regular basis cause they were just talented, for future purposes (more or less like that), I've replied that you're wrong. Only the ones were chosen who deserved this and proved that, no matter the age. Now you say that D.Giedraitis or Sirvydis are not on level of Karnisovas and co, so why on earth you put them there at first? Another bad try. It's not a crazy idea to put some 20yo to OG, it's not a crazy to put some 16yo, why it should be crazy if they can play at such level? The same way it's not a crazy idea for some 38yo to be added too if player still worths smth and can help. It's not even a crazy idea to put some talented kid for future purposes if he is really that top notch talent and you have some great 9-10 players rotation like in some 2003-2008 period. It's problem when there's none such talented and you don't have this golden generation infront of him. It's not conservatism, it's pragmatic thing heading to the most prestigious tournament. At times you can allow yourself that, at times not. What you really failed post by post is to get the importance of the summer we are heading to. You just skip it all the way or don't want to see that. If you priorities are different, that's fine, but your timing to ask for that is plain wrong.
                          The rest of your post left a bad taste really. If your tries with youth in OG didn't work, then trying to downgrade players from the past, downgrading other current candidates won't help you either and won't make your favorites look better. It'll look only like another desperate try and it is. D.Giedraitis could only dream about R.Giedraitis, or even Milaknis role in Euroleague team right now. All the rest is just your overoptimistic wishful thinking without almost any background (u19 champ doesn't count for obvious reason, unless you really can't spot the difference). "would, could, should" and etc. Like all the coaches are blind and only you see that greatness by watching D.Giedraitis few minutes on the court this season in senior game. C'mon, be serious.
                          At the end, I really feel that it's going nowhere and it's pointless to continue, actually probably it was way earlier as I feel as I'm repeating myself again and again. You seems to be little obsessed with it and any my argument is left unnoticed no matter if you even say you agree on it, but you start all over again and again, it's like hitting head into the wall, I'm afraid we'll end up with smth like "he is having more followers on instagram" (j/k) I'm done with this, you can keep your theories going, as I said - I'll be happy as long as coaches has the same idea as me

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mindozas View Post
                            It justifies no point of you. Only that either you forgot what we were discussing about, either you just can't admit where you were wrong. You wrote that we had examples of talented kids taken to Olympics almost on regular basis cause they were just talented, for future purposes (more or less like that), I've replied that you're wrong. Only the ones were chosen who deserved this and proved that, no matter the age. Now you say that D.Giedraitis or Sirvydis are not on level of Karnisovas and co, so why on earth you put them there at first? Another bad try.
                            Nope, it's not a bad try and I didn't forget. You missed couple of points. First, when I said those were not established players, but talented ones, I meant they came from NCAA, they are not established in some current Grigonis, Lekavicius fashion. They just were talented and already good, but not established per se, the same way Giedraitis is just talented, not established yet fully as a PRO, but even if you want establishment and not talent in the first place, the argument goes against Karnisovas and Pazdrazdis. Those came from NCAA, and Giedraitis from ACB (I don't how Pazdrazdis performed in NT 1991 or earlier TBH, but just for a pure argument Giedraitis would comes from much more PRO invironement club wise, so would Sirvydis). But you missed the main point, NT talent level is way off now, freakin' 20yo Karnisovas likely would be maybe even the best perimeter player overall now instantly, with some competition from Grigonis probably. That is, today you don't need to have Karnisovas talent to be a candidate to make NT.


                            Originally posted by Mindozas View Post
                            It's not a crazy idea to put some 20yo to OG, it's not a crazy to put some 16yo, why it should be crazy if they can play at such level? The same way it's not a crazy idea for some 38yo to be added too if player still worths smth and can help. It's not even a crazy idea to put some talented kid for future purposes if he is really that top notch talent and you have some great 9-10 players rotation like in some 2003-2008 period. It's problem when there's none such talented and you don't have this golden generation infront of him. It's not conservatism, it's pragmatic thing heading to the most prestigious tournament. At times you can allow yourself that, at times not. What you really failed post by post is to get the importance of the summer we are heading to. You just skip it all the way or don't want to see that. If you priorities are different, that's fine, but your timing to ask for that is plain wrong.
                            I don't agree with this pragmatic argument. When you have solid backourt, you can integrate youngsters (again, no-one ever made it for nothing, just for sheer projection of the future, all of them delivered in one or other way), but when you don't, you can't? It doesn't make sense to me, even if I get the point partially. The thing is, when you lack talent, you look for something fresh and something really different, rather than expecting to fill the lack of talent with non-talent or some mediocre players, even if older. I mean, if the talent is lower, the importance to have talented youngsters at the back of your roster (11, 12th spots) is even higher, because most likely those will have to step up and play, because most likely they are not much worse (if any) than the average talent you have. Notice I don't put Marciulionis here, even if he's the most talented guard since Jasikevicius (IMO), because it would be a sheer push for the future, that never happens anywhere - I say test Giedraitis and see what he has, he's not freakin' bum coming from MKL. He showed real D and real game in ACB already, he's bulked, poised and eager.

                            I didn't miss a single of your point. More like you constantly miss that I don't push Giedraitis to the NT, I say test him and realise what you actually have at 2. And it has nothing to do with respect to past or future players. If I say Milaknis can't play D at 2 and D.Giedraitis can, it has nothing to do with dis-respect, it's a fact. When I say Milaknis is an elite spot up shooter in EL, that's also a fact, but he can't play D and he has one trick in offence. And it's good to have one pure established and proven scorer, worth the attempt to cover his huge flaws at D. But you ain't need more of that. Milaknis and R.Giedraitis have roles in EL, and most likely they will fill the section 2, and that won't even be the worse what we had in recent past, but it's all about what are those roles. None of those 2 are good defenders (actually Milaknis is horrible at 2 and Giedraitis is not far away from that too), none of those can put the ball on the floor, none of those can create and initiate plays, none of those plays p'n'r or drives at adequate level for SG position. It's not about the prestige of their role club wise, it's about how much those roles fit to very particular Lith NT (again, the team is never the sum of best and most prestige players). If some Giedraitis or any other player proves in the windows and camps that they have better skills for very particular role, I take him even from NKL (if he's some a la Doncic prodigy) or NCAA, I think you would too. I have zero emotions here, like disrespecting anyone, I think Milaknis is highly respectable shooter for years in EL and R.Giedraitis is great offensive wing under run and gun system (thus I think he would really survive offensively in the NBA), but both of them have huge liabilities at D end both are strict role specialists, specially Milaknis. You can't have one guy who can play D at 2 and to bring true all around presence for the position, you have to have something more, and most likely we won't, so why not to try some young studs.

                            It's OK to disagree, time will tell who's right, maybe I'm highly overestimating the lack of SGs, maybe Milaknis will provide, the same Rokas would do some damage and on the paper that's much better than we had in some 2017. Maybe, I also too concerned with position 4 (PF) and Maciulis will be more solid than I expect. But since we have young talent now, so much more than in some 2017, I would be willing to get to know with them as familiar as I can, because those holes are real if we compare our selves with other teams and last three tournaments proved it with the sound.
                            LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

                            Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
                            Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
                            Buzelis, Lelevicius
                            Murauskas, Sirvydis
                            Tubelis, Krivas

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I've read you first part of post and I'm just speechless to be honest, so I stopped... it feels that I've sooo wasted my time here... You could just admit that you screwd up with these youth integration to OG and that's it, not a big deal, anyone can make a mistake. But you didn't even care to read what was written about Pazdrazdis, you still think he was in NCAA when made it in Olympics, ok, keep believing in that, you still don't know how good he was in NT in 1991-1992 friendlies - ok, I've never wrote about that too - it's enigma to us... Then you absolutely changed your position now on Karnisovas, he was simply talented at first (yeah, right, simply talented), the like of D.Giedraitis, Sirvydis, but now he became a huge talent who could be a leader in NT... I just missed the point obviously, my bad, how could I not realize that you actually had smth else in mind... So what's here to discuss at all? You are changing the angles with every given post, thinking I'll buy it. Mhhh - no I won't. Your comparisons with every post is becoming more and more strange. As I wrote - we'll finish with instagram followers. Now I don't know if it's a joke anymore. I didn't even care to read further, I just know where it all will be going - seen that before, today - overoptimistic, overhyped wishful thinking with bunch of theories. It's too damn hard to discuss about youngsters with you, man. I'll just leave the road open for you - keep having Giedraitis, Sirvydis, anyone in line-up as my brain will explode reading all this again. Cheers

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mindozas View Post
                                I've read you first part of post and I'm just speechless to be honest, so I stopped... it feels that I've sooo wasted my time here... You could just admit that you screwd up with these youth integration to OG and that's it, not a big deal, anyone can make a mistake. But you didn't even care to read what was written about Pazdrazdis, you still think he was in NCAA when made it in Olympics, ok, keep believing in that, you still don't know how good he was in NT in 1991-1992 friendlies - ok, I've never wrote about that too - it's enigma to us... Then you absolutely changed your position now on Karnisovas, he was simply talented at first (yeah, right, simply talented), the like of D.Giedraitis, Sirvydis, but now he became a huge talent who could be a leader in NT... I just missed the point obviously, my bad, how could I not realize that you actually had smth else in mind... So what's here to discuss at all? You are changing the angles with every given post, thinking I'll buy it. Mhhh - no I won't. Your comparisons with every post is becoming more and more strange. As I wrote - we'll finish with instagram followers. Now I don't know if it's a joke anymore. I didn't even care to read further, I just know where it all will be going - seen that before, today - overoptimistic, overhyped wishful thinking with bunch of theories. It's too damn hard to discuss about youngsters with you, man. I'll just leave the road open for you - keep having Giedraitis, Sirvydis, anyone in line-up as my brain will explode reading all this again. Cheers
                                Mindozas, don't be such a baby. Tell us how good that freakin' Pazdrazdis was, or it's another information that you are aware of, but can't share with us? I told you openly I have no clue how good he was, what was his numbers, his club, ect. I thought he was coming from NCAA to 1992 OT.
                                As for Karnisovas, I said he was just talented, and I would repeat that even now, I didn't change anything, by that I meant he still played in NCAA, he wasn't some PRO league stud. I meant that exactly, in the context, that people here always emphasize that NT player should already have the status in PRO team to have a shot to make to NT.

                                Yeah, that's where we stop, because it's a blur of emotions and zero arguments If you involve with me into discussion, be prepared to go deep into precise conversation. If you can't even read the post and getting frustrated, you're really not into position to go into deep BB or any other verbal conversations. Dealing with misconceptions is a part of discussions, and there's 50 shades of argument's angles. And that's OK, not everybody does. But better use contra-arguments instead of writing long stretches about how badly you felt reading this or that, it sound like winning.

                                And I never have problems to admit I'm screwed, but I have to see it where I did. Saying that D. Giedraitis deserved to be in the extended list and even to be among those 12-14 windows players, is the position that I hold and won't take it back, because I think he's that talented for current SG talent pool.
                                Last edited by Straight forward; 01-24-2020, 02:53 PM.
                                LTU NT will snatch Eurobasket 2029 title with this roster:

                                Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, Laurencikas
                                Indrusaitis, Brazdeikis, Rubstavicius
                                Buzelis, Lelevicius
                                Murauskas, Sirvydis
                                Tubelis, Krivas

                                Comment

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