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Thread: 2021 Euro Qualifiers

  1. #21

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    There's no point to answer for a poster who can't read what you write. Either you can interpret the text precisely, or it's a high school. I won't be the teacher here all the time.

    Mindozas, we'll have to settle to disagree. We have a history of taking one or few 19-22yo for OG rosters, how to give a run in soft quallies for one of brightest guards is exceeded effort is beyond me. The same Velicka proved his worth in LKL, how he's not more interesting case for coaches than some Bickauskas is a complete enigma to me. It's not even the case that we can clearly say Bickauskis is surely a better player. To me, not to want to know all possible talent you have is carelessness. F.e. both Sirvydis (well, OK, he's not convincing this season) and D.Giedraitis will be 20yo this summer. There's plenty of occasions when we added such to the final rosters of Olympic teams, and I only ask for a little test in soft quallies or preparation for them. My position is clear, work and your weaknesses, we have holes at backourt, push it for it, don't settle for another blow-out against Denmark without any mark to NT substantial perspective. We're good, let's agree to disagree.

    As for Brazdeikis, I like that he finally did it. In a long run he can be a heck of piece for us, but I barely see him in 2020 OG roster. First, he doesn't want to be in Kaunas, second- he's way too raw. IMO, he would be lost in most cases in FIBA. Sure, you can throw him in for few minutes and see if he's having a huge offensive game, he might have it even now, but generally his D is really bad now and he's too ISO player. He needs a read deal coach and some understainding what is PRO ball, let alone FIBA.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Mindozas, we'll have to settle to disagree. We have a history of taking one or few 19-22yo for OG rosters, how to give a run in soft quallies for one of brightest guards is exceeded effort is beyond me. The same Velicka proved his worth in LKL, how he's not more interesting case for coaches than some Bickauskas is a complete enigma to me. It's not even the case that we can clearly say Bickauskis is surely a better player. To me, not to want to know all possible talent you have is carelessness. F.e. both Sirvydis (well, OK, he's not convincing this season) and D.Giedraitis will be 20yo this summer. There's plenty of occasions when we added such to the final rosters of Olympic teams, and I only ask for a little test in soft quallies or preparation for them. My position is clear, work and your weaknesses, we have holes at backourt, push it for it, don't settle for another blow-out against Denmark without any mark to NT substantial perspective. We're good, let's agree to disagree.
    We won't play Denmark in upcoming window, we will have two, maybe even competitive games, and we don't have a history of taking talented guys to OG just cause they were talented. Everyone who made the roster was either good enough to do this (Sabas, JV) or we had enormous whole in PG position and that was once when Kazlauskas gambled with Kariniauskas, who looked ok in preparation period. The same way he gambled with Vasiliauskas in 2014, Lekavicius in 2015. Simply cause hole at PG was huge and we were looking for solutions for 2016. That's it. Now we don't have to gamble anywhere and we don't have a talented player who could on talent alone even come close to making the final roster like being on final days of preparation with NT. C'mon just don't try to drag Giedraitis this far, it's not realistic. Grigonis made it to OG roster being a starter with 10ppg in ACB. Giedraitis now has long way to go till that, at least start warming the bench on regular basis. If his club is in shitty situation, dead last, nothing works out, so why the heck coach doesn't add Giedraitis to the roster to save the day? Think about that for a sec. Maybe kid is not ready yet for big journeys, even to taste a bit of it? It just looks waaaaay too early for him.
    We're not really agreeing to disagreeing here I guess, cause you point at totally different things. It's not "carelessness" as you call it, it's circumstances when you don't have to force things up and instead - act wise. We don't even have that star-filled backcourt, when you could take some coach favorite to OG and nobody really cared who is waving the towel there. You say you understand that, but you again start all over with this youngsters stuff just to satisfy your curiosity, while coach is responsible for result and that is what matters this summer. I'm just glad that for time being NT coaches are going to my preferred direction and set the priorities they way I think is the best. After OG it will be another story, maybe even some player will surprise us sooner, in 2nd part of the season, then I'll be fine to have such in consideration no matter the age


  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    We won't play Denmark in upcoming window, we will have two, maybe even competitive games, and we don't have a history of taking talented guys to OG just cause they were talented. Everyone who made the roster was either good enough to do this (Sabas, JV) or we had enormous whole in PG position and that was once when Kazlauskas gambled with Kariniauskas, who looked ok in preparation period. The same way he gambled with Vasiliauskas in 2014, Lekavicius in 2015. Simply cause hole at PG was huge and we were looking for solutions for 2016. That's it. Now we don't have to gamble anywhere and we don't have a talented player who could on talent alone even come close to making the final roster like being on final days of preparation with NT. C'mon just don't try to drag Giedraitis this far, it's not realistic. Grigonis made it to OG roster being a starter with 10ppg in ACB. Giedraitis now has long way to go till that, at least start warming the bench on regular basis. If his club is in shitty situation, dead last, nothing works out, so why the heck coach doesn't add Giedraitis to the roster to save the day? Think about that for a sec. Maybe kid is not ready yet for big journeys, even to taste a bit of it? It just looks waaaaay too early for him.
    None is saying Giedraitis is ready. I say - test him in soft quallies, at least get him into training camp, as short as it is. It wouldn't hurt, it's a great chance, you won't want to give time for youngsters just before OQT, but now, why not. Again, we do have huge hole at 2 and backourt's talent overall, testing Giedraitis or Sirvydis at NT environment (second rate environment) would only foster their development and readiness for serious future battles.

    I have no clue if Giedraitis have at least 1% to make OG 2020 team, but as a coach I would surely like to know. Again, after Grigonis, who will exactly gonna fill 2 position? We'll we again take three non-defensive, one dimentional players in Milaknis, R.Giedraitis, Juskevicius? We'll jack off shots and will play no D. That's not to say some 20yo D. Giedraitis will come and fill the holes, that's to say, the room is open, know all your options.

    It's not even about how good or bad is Giedraitis, or Sirvydis. Just have some priorities, have a vision, make something out of box when status quo decisions don't work (and it doesn't for a while now). Just to get back to history, 1992 20yo Karnisovas and Pazdrazdis both played in NCAA. None of them were established guys at PROs, they were simply talented. At 1996 20yo M.Zukauskas wasn't some super stud, or generational talent, but he was rock solid and already delivered highly in mid LKL club (I even find some similarities between him and some Giedraitis in a way, both showed some sort of reliability at young age).

    Don't push punks into NT if they are not ready, but have interest in best upcoming talent, if there's a stage to throw them into fire, do it, specially if the guy delivered in some stages before (NKL, youth level, something higher, like ACB in Giedraitis case, or Kulboka's). The thesis is clear - care about the best young talent, and look for ways to integrate them rather sooner than later. Specially now, when our NT lacks talent. It's contrary, when you have stacked team, you don't really care about faster transition, you do care when you lack talent.

    BTW, Dzikic won some games when he played Gieraitis early in the season After that, when Giedraitis got injuries, came losses one after another. Just a fun fact though
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  4. #24

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    BTW, long article on Dovydas Giedraitis. It sucks that he can't crack rotation becaue of foreigners restriction now. He really provided and looked solid when got a chance in those 7 games this season, but now he'll have to work only in practices. Maybe since Dzikic out, they will loan him, some Neptunas could use him. On other hand, plenty of quality practices and ability to work on individual skills. I like that Spanish school emphasized physical preparation and the quickness of decision making. I often lack that in Lith school, where we emphasize tactics and shooting.

    https://www.15min.lt/eurolyga/naujie...i-1134-1257892
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  5. #25
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    None is saying Giedraitis is ready. I say - test him in soft quallies, at least get him into training camp, as short as it is. It wouldn't hurt, it's a great chance, you won't want to give time for youngsters just before OQT, but now, why not. Again, we do have huge hole at 2 and backourt's talent overall, testing Giedraitis or Sirvydis at NT environment (second rate environment) would only foster their development and readiness for serious future battles.

    I have no clue if Giedraitis have at least 1% to make OG 2020 team, but as a coach I would surely like to know. Again, after Grigonis, who will exactly gonna fill 2 position? We'll we again take three non-defensive, one dimentional players in Milaknis, R.Giedraitis, Juskevicius? We'll jack off shots and will play no D. That's not to say some 20yo D. Giedraitis will come and fill the holes, that's to say, the room is open, know all your options.

    It's not even about how good or bad is Giedraitis, or Sirvydis. Just have some priorities, have a vision, make something out of box when status quo decisions don't work (and it doesn't for a while now). Just to get back to history, 1992 20yo Karnisovas and Pazdrazdis both played in NCAA. None of them were established guys at PROs, they were simply talented. At 1996 20yo M.Zukauskas wasn't some super stud, or generational talent, but he was rock solid and already delivered highly in mid LKL club (I even find some similarities between him and some Giedraitis in a way, both showed some sort of reliability at young age).

    Don't push punks into NT if they are not ready, but have interest in best upcoming talent, if there's a stage to throw them into fire, do it, specially if the guy delivered in some stages before (NKL, youth level, something higher, like ACB in Giedraitis case, or Kulboka's). The thesis is clear - care about the best young talent, and look for ways to integrate them rather sooner than later. Specially now, when our NT lacks talent. It's contrary, when you have stacked team, you don't really care about faster transition, you do care when you lack talent.

    BTW, Dzikic won some games when he played Gieraitis early in the season After that, when Giedraitis got injuries, came losses one after another. Just a fun fact though
    And again we go round in circles.... This upcoming window is not for testing. It's for preparation and it's very short one, not few weeks camp. What you mean with "know your options"? You can see with bare eye that Giedraitis, Sirvydis are not ready for such challenges. We know these options, it's XXI century, 3rd decade of it, it's not that we only read about them in magazine. Hold your horses, their time will come, maybe even in autumn. Then you can ask coaches to test them and I'll support your choice, at least what comes to Sirvydis.
    While compare them with Karnisovas, Pazdrazdis... c'mon. Karnisovas was a stud, he started to play for Statyba at the age of 16, made his debut with NT at similar age in 1989 if I recall correctly, then moved to States as big prospect. It was huge move back then, big recognition. When he came back for 1992 qualifiers preparations, he right away established himself as one of the leaders in NT. Pazdrazdis moved to NCAA later, while in 1992 was also huge prospect and already NT member, player for Statyba, he played for NT since 1991 when we started to play first friendlies after getting back our independence, he was one of the key players there. Of course Sabas, Marciulionis were missing, but still he was no rookie. The same goes with Zukauskas, he was already damn good, not top notch prospect, cause back then we had some hell of the prospects like Jurkunas, Praskevicius at similar position, so Zukauskas was in shadow, also being from smaller town bball school, but he was established leader in good LKL team, pouring some 20ppg (find such now), being versatile at the both ends of the court. Even with NT, if not that superstrong generation hitting the scene in his position with Siska, Stomba, Karnisovas still playing, who pushed him towards more limited role later in NT, more defensive duties, he could've been much more visible player. I barely see any connection with Giedraitis here. That's just crazy to remember how mature and already good some teens/youngsters were in 90s and not one or two, but some dozen of them


  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    While compare them with Karnisovas, Pazdrazdis... c'mon. Karnisovas was a stud, he started to play for Statyba at the age of 16, made his debut with NT at similar age in 1989 if I recall correctly, then moved to States as big prospect. It was huge move back then, big recognition. When he came back for 1992 qualifiers preparations, he right away established himself as one of the leaders in NT. Pazdrazdis moved to NCAA later, while in 1992 was also huge prospect and already NT member, player for Statyba, he played for NT since 1991 when we started to play first friendlies after getting back our independence, he was one of the key players there. Of course Sabas, Marciulionis were missing, but still he was no rookie. The same goes with Zukauskas, he was already damn good, not top notch prospect, cause back then we had some hell of the prospects like Jurkunas, Praskevicius at similar position, so Zukauskas was in shadow, also being from smaller town bball school, but he was established leader in good LKL team, pouring some 20ppg (find such now), being versatile at the both ends of the court. Even with NT, if not that superstrong generation hitting the scene in his position with Siska, Stomba, Karnisovas still playing, who pushed him towards more limited role later in NT, more defensive duties, he could've been much more visible player. I barely see any connection with Giedraitis here. That's just crazy to remember how mature and already good some teens/youngsters were in 90s and not one or two, but some dozen of them
    I didn't say Sirvydis or Giedraitis are at the level of Pazdrazdis (I admit I haven't seen him playing, but Garastas was super high on him, said he could be nearly as good as Marciulionis, but NCAA screwed him) or M. Zukauskas. They are not (even though I wouldn't be surprised both would achieve more than early bloomer M.Zukauskas who ended up to be solid El player, but nothing ever more), let alone Karnisovas who was a true stud and I never said otherwise. But it only justifies my point that adding some 20yo is not some crazy idea, like some hiper conservatives here (with a bad memory also) declares here. And, no, I'm not sure D. Giedraitis is surely not ready. I can't say this. OK, he's just scratching ACB surface at the moment, but let's consider others candidates at SG spot for a second, before saying D.Giedraitis in NT this season is complete non-sense. It's Milaknis, who delivers mainly in Zalgiris, in NT he often completely lost and huge liability at D (seen the worst of it in 2017), nevertheless he seems to be a lock and that's OK under Maskoliunas. But who else? R. Giedraitis is no-defence one trick pony who barely can provide anything what SG must provide other than shooting which even at 27 age didn't look reliable at NT level. He's more of SF and I would like to see him running at this position in the first place. Then Juskevicius who basically wouldn't even get the spot in ACB because of his poor D, limited IQ and streaky shooting? The same Dulkys, who is a bit better defender, but even more limited offensively? There's no even Seibutis, who is probably done for good at high level. So it's not like we need a 20ppg LKL stud to have a shot to compete for the spot. If that would be 90's you would need to be such to have a shot, now the talent level is way off, like waaaaayyyyy off. I could argue that D.Giedraitis looked more PRO ready than R.Jokubaitis in U19 WC. He played impressive D, he looked sturdy, determined, high IQ, emotional leader, efficient scorer guard till he sprained his ankle. Jokubaitis provides 7ppg in 15min for Zalgiris, the team which every opponent meats with additional motivation, meaning Jokubaitis' PER 36 in LKL is 17ppg and. I could argue that unleashed Jokubaitis could be +10ppg player for such club as Neptunas/Liekabelis/Juventus. And my point is that D. Giedraitis is much more ready physically, he's way better defender (it's not even close), and may be even more efficient scorer than Jokubaitis himself. In the first three games of U19 when Giedraitis was healthy, he was the stud, he was the leader who not only lead NT defensively big time, providing gustiness and toughness, but dropped 45pts, while Jokubaitis 27pts. I wouldn't be surprised to see 12-15pts scoring sheet of Giedraitis in mid section LKL club this season with a solid D. Even in ACB, with his limited playing time, 8 games , 8 minutes, he manages to score 3pts with ridiculous 1.6 shot per game (63,6% threes), meaning his PER 36 is 12,6ppg (and it's a deserts between ACB and LKL, one stands at no.1 domestic league, other at 11). My point is, he's much more ready than people can imagine who haven't even observe him closely. I saw him in U19 and I've seen a ready do go stud, rather impressive early bloomer (again, his famous 16yo campaign in NKL), then he stepped onto ACB court with cold nerves, providing very solid, vet's like D, and knocking down his shots when he got any.
    To sum up, how many 2 guards in Lithuania even scratching the surface of ACB? That's right, none, and except Grigonis who would be ACB stud, it's an open question whenever any of our guards could sign there, even Milaknis at this age. How come the one who does, and does it with ridiculously efficient and extremely promising fashion, doesn't get the attention from ort backcourt crippled NT, is rather beyond me. What if he's balling more convincing than all these extremely impressive "other than Grigonis" options at 2? I just remind you, Milaknis was a complete sieve at D in 2017, literally unplayable, and so was Juskevicius. I'm good with Milaknis under Maskoliunas, at least for a shot, but that punk 19yo D. Giedraitis is better defender already than Milaknis, Jukevicius, R. Giedraitis. Fact. To sum up all this, our youngest studs must be in soft quallies (IMO), let alone freakin' extended list. But that comes with my knowledge, I bet Maskoliunas didn't study Giedraitis as closely as I did.

    BTW: Just for a record, and to be completely precise, M.Zukauskas as 19yo averaged 12,7pts in 29:22 minutes. Siauliai were 4th best club in LKL. I really would love to see what Sirvydis, D.Giedraitis or Jokubaitis would provide at Juventus, Lietkabelis type of club with 29 minutes. Those punks could really go for such numbers, maybe even better. With curren Jokubaitis scoring rates, he would average 13,5pts in 29 minutes. That's another imply how big those prospects are, and I'm at least happy to see Jokubaitis in those windows.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 01-23-2020 at 03:02 PM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    I didn't say Sirvydis or Giedraitis are at the level of Pazdrazdis (I admit I haven't seen him playing, but Garastas was super high on him, said he could be nearly as good as Marciulionis, but NCAA screwed him) or M. Zukauskas. They are not (even though I wouldn't be surprised both would achieve more than early bloomer M.Zukauskas who ended up to be solid El player, but nothing ever more), let alone Karnisovas who was a true stud and I never said otherwise. But it only justifies my point that adding some 20yo is not some crazy idea, like some hiper conservatives here (with a bad memory also) declares here.
    It justifies no point of you. Only that either you forgot what we were discussing about, either you just can't admit where you were wrong. You wrote that we had examples of talented kids taken to Olympics almost on regular basis cause they were just talented, for future purposes (more or less like that), I've replied that you're wrong. Only the ones were chosen who deserved this and proved that, no matter the age. Now you say that D.Giedraitis or Sirvydis are not on level of Karnisovas and co, so why on earth you put them there at first? Another bad try. It's not a crazy idea to put some 20yo to OG, it's not a crazy to put some 16yo, why it should be crazy if they can play at such level? The same way it's not a crazy idea for some 38yo to be added too if player still worths smth and can help. It's not even a crazy idea to put some talented kid for future purposes if he is really that top notch talent and you have some great 9-10 players rotation like in some 2003-2008 period. It's problem when there's none such talented and you don't have this golden generation infront of him. It's not conservatism, it's pragmatic thing heading to the most prestigious tournament. At times you can allow yourself that, at times not. What you really failed post by post is to get the importance of the summer we are heading to. You just skip it all the way or don't want to see that. If you priorities are different, that's fine, but your timing to ask for that is plain wrong.
    The rest of your post left a bad taste really. If your tries with youth in OG didn't work, then trying to downgrade players from the past, downgrading other current candidates won't help you either and won't make your favorites look better. It'll look only like another desperate try and it is. D.Giedraitis could only dream about R.Giedraitis, or even Milaknis role in Euroleague team right now. All the rest is just your overoptimistic wishful thinking without almost any background (u19 champ doesn't count for obvious reason, unless you really can't spot the difference). "would, could, should" and etc. Like all the coaches are blind and only you see that greatness by watching D.Giedraitis few minutes on the court this season in senior game. C'mon, be serious.
    At the end, I really feel that it's going nowhere and it's pointless to continue, actually probably it was way earlier as I feel as I'm repeating myself again and again. You seems to be little obsessed with it and any my argument is left unnoticed no matter if you even say you agree on it, but you start all over again and again, it's like hitting head into the wall, I'm afraid we'll end up with smth like "he is having more followers on instagram" (j/k) I'm done with this, you can keep your theories going, as I said - I'll be happy as long as coaches has the same idea as me


  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    It justifies no point of you. Only that either you forgot what we were discussing about, either you just can't admit where you were wrong. You wrote that we had examples of talented kids taken to Olympics almost on regular basis cause they were just talented, for future purposes (more or less like that), I've replied that you're wrong. Only the ones were chosen who deserved this and proved that, no matter the age. Now you say that D.Giedraitis or Sirvydis are not on level of Karnisovas and co, so why on earth you put them there at first? Another bad try.
    Nope, it's not a bad try and I didn't forget. You missed couple of points. First, when I said those were not established players, but talented ones, I meant they came from NCAA, they are not established in some current Grigonis, Lekavicius fashion. They just were talented and already good, but not established per se, the same way Giedraitis is just talented, not established yet fully as a PRO, but even if you want establishment and not talent in the first place, the argument goes against Karnisovas and Pazdrazdis. Those came from NCAA, and Giedraitis from ACB (I don't how Pazdrazdis performed in NT 1991 or earlier TBH, but just for a pure argument Giedraitis would comes from much more PRO invironement club wise, so would Sirvydis). But you missed the main point, NT talent level is way off now, freakin' 20yo Karnisovas likely would be maybe even the best perimeter player overall now instantly, with some competition from Grigonis probably. That is, today you don't need to have Karnisovas talent to be a candidate to make NT.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    It's not a crazy idea to put some 20yo to OG, it's not a crazy to put some 16yo, why it should be crazy if they can play at such level? The same way it's not a crazy idea for some 38yo to be added too if player still worths smth and can help. It's not even a crazy idea to put some talented kid for future purposes if he is really that top notch talent and you have some great 9-10 players rotation like in some 2003-2008 period. It's problem when there's none such talented and you don't have this golden generation infront of him. It's not conservatism, it's pragmatic thing heading to the most prestigious tournament. At times you can allow yourself that, at times not. What you really failed post by post is to get the importance of the summer we are heading to. You just skip it all the way or don't want to see that. If you priorities are different, that's fine, but your timing to ask for that is plain wrong.
    I don't agree with this pragmatic argument. When you have solid backourt, you can integrate youngsters (again, no-one ever made it for nothing, just for sheer projection of the future, all of them delivered in one or other way), but when you don't, you can't? It doesn't make sense to me, even if I get the point partially. The thing is, when you lack talent, you look for something fresh and something really different, rather than expecting to fill the lack of talent with non-talent or some mediocre players, even if older. I mean, if the talent is lower, the importance to have talented youngsters at the back of your roster (11, 12th spots) is even higher, because most likely those will have to step up and play, because most likely they are not much worse (if any) than the average talent you have. Notice I don't put Marciulionis here, even if he's the most talented guard since Jasikevicius (IMO), because it would be a sheer push for the future, that never happens anywhere - I say test Giedraitis and see what he has, he's not freakin' bum coming from MKL. He showed real D and real game in ACB already, he's bulked, poised and eager.

    I didn't miss a single of your point. More like you constantly miss that I don't push Giedraitis to the NT, I say test him and realise what you actually have at 2. And it has nothing to do with respect to past or future players. If I say Milaknis can't play D at 2 and D.Giedraitis can, it has nothing to do with dis-respect, it's a fact. When I say Milaknis is an elite spot up shooter in EL, that's also a fact, but he can't play D and he has one trick in offence. And it's good to have one pure established and proven scorer, worth the attempt to cover his huge flaws at D. But you ain't need more of that. Milaknis and R.Giedraitis have roles in EL, and most likely they will fill the section 2, and that won't even be the worse what we had in recent past, but it's all about what are those roles. None of those 2 are good defenders (actually Milaknis is horrible at 2 and Giedraitis is not far away from that too), none of those can put the ball on the floor, none of those can create and initiate plays, none of those plays p'n'r or drives at adequate level for SG position. It's not about the prestige of their role club wise, it's about how much those roles fit to very particular Lith NT (again, the team is never the sum of best and most prestige players). If some Giedraitis or any other player proves in the windows and camps that they have better skills for very particular role, I take him even from NKL (if he's some a la Doncic prodigy) or NCAA, I think you would too. I have zero emotions here, like disrespecting anyone, I think Milaknis is highly respectable shooter for years in EL and R.Giedraitis is great offensive wing under run and gun system (thus I think he would really survive offensively in the NBA), but both of them have huge liabilities at D end both are strict role specialists, specially Milaknis. You can't have one guy who can play D at 2 and to bring true all around presence for the position, you have to have something more, and most likely we won't, so why not to try some young studs.

    It's OK to disagree, time will tell who's right, maybe I'm highly overestimating the lack of SGs, maybe Milaknis will provide, the same Rokas would do some damage and on the paper that's much better than we had in some 2017. Maybe, I also too concerned with position 4 (PF) and Maciulis will be more solid than I expect. But since we have young talent now, so much more than in some 2017, I would be willing to get to know with them as familiar as I can, because those holes are real if we compare our selves with other teams and last three tournaments proved it with the sound.
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  9. #29
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    I've read you first part of post and I'm just speechless to be honest, so I stopped... it feels that I've sooo wasted my time here... You could just admit that you screwd up with these youth integration to OG and that's it, not a big deal, anyone can make a mistake. But you didn't even care to read what was written about Pazdrazdis, you still think he was in NCAA when made it in Olympics, ok, keep believing in that, you still don't know how good he was in NT in 1991-1992 friendlies - ok, I've never wrote about that too - it's enigma to us... Then you absolutely changed your position now on Karnisovas, he was simply talented at first (yeah, right, simply talented), the like of D.Giedraitis, Sirvydis, but now he became a huge talent who could be a leader in NT... I just missed the point obviously, my bad, how could I not realize that you actually had smth else in mind... So what's here to discuss at all? You are changing the angles with every given post, thinking I'll buy it. Mhhh - no I won't. Your comparisons with every post is becoming more and more strange. As I wrote - we'll finish with instagram followers. Now I don't know if it's a joke anymore. I didn't even care to read further, I just know where it all will be going - seen that before, today - overoptimistic, overhyped wishful thinking with bunch of theories. It's too damn hard to discuss about youngsters with you, man. I'll just leave the road open for you - keep having Giedraitis, Sirvydis, anyone in line-up as my brain will explode reading all this again. Cheers


  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    I've read you first part of post and I'm just speechless to be honest, so I stopped... it feels that I've sooo wasted my time here... You could just admit that you screwd up with these youth integration to OG and that's it, not a big deal, anyone can make a mistake. But you didn't even care to read what was written about Pazdrazdis, you still think he was in NCAA when made it in Olympics, ok, keep believing in that, you still don't know how good he was in NT in 1991-1992 friendlies - ok, I've never wrote about that too - it's enigma to us... Then you absolutely changed your position now on Karnisovas, he was simply talented at first (yeah, right, simply talented), the like of D.Giedraitis, Sirvydis, but now he became a huge talent who could be a leader in NT... I just missed the point obviously, my bad, how could I not realize that you actually had smth else in mind... So what's here to discuss at all? You are changing the angles with every given post, thinking I'll buy it. Mhhh - no I won't. Your comparisons with every post is becoming more and more strange. As I wrote - we'll finish with instagram followers. Now I don't know if it's a joke anymore. I didn't even care to read further, I just know where it all will be going - seen that before, today - overoptimistic, overhyped wishful thinking with bunch of theories. It's too damn hard to discuss about youngsters with you, man. I'll just leave the road open for you - keep having Giedraitis, Sirvydis, anyone in line-up as my brain will explode reading all this again. Cheers
    Mindozas, don't be such a baby. Tell us how good that freakin' Pazdrazdis was, or it's another information that you are aware of, but can't share with us? I told you openly I have no clue how good he was, what was his numbers, his club, ect. I thought he was coming from NCAA to 1992 OT.
    As for Karnisovas, I said he was just talented, and I would repeat that even now, I didn't change anything, by that I meant he still played in NCAA, he wasn't some PRO league stud. I meant that exactly, in the context, that people here always emphasize that NT player should already have the status in PRO team to have a shot to make to NT.

    Yeah, that's where we stop, because it's a blur of emotions and zero arguments If you involve with me into discussion, be prepared to go deep into precise conversation. If you can't even read the post and getting frustrated, you're really not into position to go into deep BB or any other verbal conversations. Dealing with misconceptions is a part of discussions, and there's 50 shades of argument's angles. And that's OK, not everybody does. But better use contra-arguments instead of writing long stretches about how badly you felt reading this or that, it sound like winning.

    And I never have problems to admit I'm screwed, but I have to see it where I did. Saying that D. Giedraitis deserved to be in the extended list and even to be among those 12-14 windows players, is the position that I hold and won't take it back, because I think he's that talented for current SG talent pool.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 01-24-2020 at 02:53 PM.
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  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Saying that Jokubaitis was chosen over Kalnietis is just stupid.Jokubaitis is taken as youngster not main rotation player and earns like 10 times less.Jokubaitis don't even play in euroleague even when situation with Pg is horrible.Why? Because not ready.
    That's not the point. The point is - why Jokubaitis and not Kalnietis is in Zalgiris. Jokubaitis is in Zalgiris puzzle, Kalnietis is not, however you look at it. And it's a good example how clubs construct their plan, their long term vision. You split with some solid vets who would make absolute sense in the first sense, but not when you dig deeper. Kalnietis generally is not even a good fit for Zalgiris. He's poor defender in his position and he's not good with strict role, and essentially needs a lot of freedom as PG to get the best of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    One month's in NT can't do miracles compared to 8 months in club.If player is true deal he will show that in clubs.

    NT is men team for winning not youngsters growing farm.
    It means a lot, man. It's one thing to be in the club and to be among best talents of the country. Even to be in the camp alone, means a lot. Any players who goes through it, will be much more ready next time.

    It's not the farm, but you should be very sharp-sighted towards chances to improve your talent. If there's windows where you can throw some young standouts, I much rahter do that, than don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Two bad tournaments doesn't mean we have blow out everything of 27 years of building winning culture of our NT.It works how we did over the years, we just need to be patience and stay with it not just go young and tank like some NBA team for 4 years until those youngster will mature.

    No thank you.I don't wanna see 3-4 years of tanking and ale growing for the future and like 7 times of 10 that's leads to nothing...and that's in clubs where you can teach them 8-9 months...what you can achieve in 1,5 months per year teaching them.?
    Three bad tournaments. 2016, 2017, 2019.

    No-one ever talking about tanking. Some youngsters are essentially at the same level as some veterans. Tell me the essential difference between Sirvydis, Giedraitis and Juskevicius, Gailius? They all would be completely irrelevant in the knock out stage of real tournament. What it has to do with tanking? When you ride complete mediocre veteran at the end of the bench is aiming for awards, and when you do it with (more or less) the same level youngster, is tanking? My point is, let's give 12th spot for talented youngster, not mediocre veteran, unless he fills very particular need. If not, let's go with talent.

    F.e. Remember Gailius in 2015. The guy was no specialist of anything. Not a good defender, not a good system player, inconsistent shooter, ect. Maybe he brings energy from the bench, let's say. He showed up in three games, basically playing meaningful minutes only against Latvia. So that's 27yo snatches a spot and basically sits out all tournament. Now imagine we had current Sirvydis in 2015. Who would you choose to run those more or less meaningful minutes, like 30 minutes in entire tournament, Gailius or Sirvydis? The mediocre veteran, or the guy who has an upside to become one of the keys in the near future? I take Sirvydis and I wouldn't tank at all.

    The different case was with 27 R.Giedraitis and Butkevicius in 2019. Both were specialists and their role was clear. One was shooter and scorer, and we badly missed shooting, and Butkevicius was a defensive bulldog for short stretches, who can guard big guards. It make sense.

    It's not about necessary pushing youngsters, it's about knowing all your options and being completely sharp-sighted and flexible while building a TEAM, including the projections about the long term success. Big wins doesn't come from no-where, you also have to work towards those. Remember Kazlauskas words "we had to go through lot off losses, till Jasikevicius became Jasikevicius". Saras wasn't the guy who played consistently and spot on from the day one. He had to go through his mistakes in NT exactly, but it was clear he's a gem and he had to be in the NT. Nobody complained when we snatched a bronze in 2000 OG or champs title in Sweden.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 01-24-2020 at 03:53 PM.
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  12. #32
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Mindozas, don't be such a baby. Tell us how good that freakin' Pazdrazdis was, or it's another information that you are aware of, but can't share with us? I told you openly I have no clue how good he was, what was his numbers, his club, ect. I thought he was coming from NCAA to 1992 OT.
    Damn... "a baby", I don't want to be a baby, then you might add me to your wishlist to NT... Regarding Pazdrazdis, it's just a proof that you didn't read what was written at all, you are blinded by your ideas. So what's the point? I've wrote probably twice where he played and how he did, why it's not the right example - you missed it, wonder why, maybe cause it didnt suit your position? Don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    As for Karnisovas, I said he was just talented, and I would repeat that even now, I didn't change anything, by that I meant he still played in NCAA, he wasn't some PRO league stud. I meant that exactly, in the context, that people here always emphasize that NT player should already have the status in PRO team to have a shot to make to NT.
    You not only missed what I was writing, but you are so messed up in your own theories, that you got lost in yours. You just wrote that Karnisovas was that good that he would be the best perimeter player now, better than Grigonis. It sounds way more than just talented. But I'm sure you will find a new angle to prove that I missed the point, so whatever

    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Yeah, that's where we stop, because it's a blur of emotions and zero arguments If you involve with me into discussion, be prepared to go deep into precise conversation. If you can't even read the post and getting frustrated, you're really not into position to go into deep BB or any other verbal conversations. Dealing with misconceptions is a part of discussions, and there's 50 shades of argument's angles. And that's OK, not everybody does. But better use contra-arguments instead of writing long stretches about how badly you felt reading this or that, it sound like winning.
    Winning? Winning like what? Internet? And you are calling me "a baby" It was not a discussion, not a conversation, cause you didn't read or missed most of the thing I've written with all the arguments and exactly cause of your emotions, not mine, and I had to repeat myself over and over again, and you still don't know what I was writing about, so I just stopped. It was you monologue filled with wishful thinking without any background. Like everytime you talk about youngsters. I've had every contra-argument against any sane thought of you, but I can't have anything against dreams and wishful thinking. You can put in your dream roster anyone you want and imagine how good he would be, I'll just skip it for the future
    You might not have problems to admit you were wrong on some occasions, that's true, but you have problems with that when it comes to some topics like youngsters, like LKF or like some players you like/dislike. At times you see too much of only black and white, the player you got hyped about becomes soooo good, then the player you dislike becomes almost a trash. The more you write about it - the more you convince yourself in that and here comes the problems.
    Don't get me wrong, I respect you as a poster and contributor here, we agreed/disagreed on many things during the years, you share some interesting thoughts, interesting insights about a young players, but there are really some topics you should be more objective about, not black/white like. I'm aware that you probably will say you are, but that's just how it looks from the side


  13. #33

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    Fair enough, Mindozas.
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  14. #34
    Senior Member ZaliaBalta's Avatar
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    14 man squad for the first window:

    Guards: Kalnietis, Janavičius, Jokubaitis, Dimša, Valinskas

    Forwards: Gailius, Butkevičius, Kuzminskas, Bendžius, Masiulis, Mačiulis

    Centers: Motiejūnas, Sajus, Kairys


    It's good to see Jokubaitis here. Even though, he started to actually contribute to Žalgiris games, but this is still a really great opportunity for him. I really hope, that he gets the 2nd PG role, not the 3rd.

    Valinskas.. I don't really know. Juškevičius would have been a safer option for me, but well whatever, let's just hope he won't lose his head, like he always does.

    Gailius. You guys already know.

    Motiejūnas. Will be really interesting to see him in Europe. Even against a team like Belgium it will be much more interesting and reliable material than China's league.



    Predicted line up:

    Kalnietis, Jokubaitis, Janavičius
    Dimša, Valinskas
    Kuzminskas, Butkevičius, Gailius
    Mačiulis, Bendžius, Masiulis
    Motiejūnas, Kairys, Sajus



    EDIT: Juškevičius refused the offer because of personal reasons. Those reasons were not explained. It seems like Adas retired from national team for ever by his own decision. Looks like Juškevičius is tired of always (most of the time) being the 13th player.. Coach really wanted to see Adas in the team.

    Jokubaitis case will be finally decided after Žalgiris game @Baskonia.
    Last edited by ZaliaBalta; 02-10-2020 at 10:34 AM.

  15. #35
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Juskevicius decline was unexpected a bi, but afterall he is already 31yo and always was on a verge of making it or not to final roster of big tournaments, next summer would be the same, with more chances to be left aside, however got lucky lot of times in the past, so that would be a bit lame excuse to be pissed about that. Probably NT is not a priority now - family is, last chance to get more money from club career and etc. I guess Parma also advised not to go, the same way they did with Maksvytis

    Other than that, no big susprises. Masiulis was picked over Kulboka probably, as a player who can play at C too. Janavicius over Bickauskis. Valinskas became a lucky one cause of Adas situation. Gailius will probably be used at SG more, not SF. Like he is in Neptunas. The rest as it was predicted before and explained now by coach - more veterans and less youngsters are there cause of upcoming OQT, they will need to adjust to new coach/tactics


  16. #36
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    I don't like Sajus in the squad, some Birutis is imo a better player and he is good in Prienai, but whatever.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Last summer when Adas was cut basically first after very good EuroBasket 2017 performance for our b level guard standards most likely it's was enough for him.Alot of people was suprised by that Adomaitis desicion to cut him so early,most likely Juskevicius felt disrespected, he is not some youngster anymore to be treated like that .I understand him,but truly his chances making main olympic team was slim.Milaknis have seriuos advantage over him because of zalgiris system.

    Nice to hear about Kuzminskas playing position and that he was heard what he was saying.

    Masiulis over Kulboka its tricky but my feeling is also that Masiulis is more true Pf and thats the key in this our team construction.In youth tournaments when Masiulis,Kulboka,Sedekerskis was playing for same team what position they were playing? My memory somehow says to me that Masiulis was playing big position inside no?

  18. #38
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher View Post
    I don't like Sajus in the squad, some Birutis is imo a better player and he is good in Prienai, but whatever.
    Birutis is better overall, but it's so hard to watch him defending nowadays.... slow, soft, even in offense, no matter the stats, he surely need more time to get back on track after injury, to hold its ground better. Anyway, it doesn't matter much as you pointed out, Sajus as reserve probably won't even make the game list unless Kairys won't be able to help, then we might need Sajus physical presence


  19. #39

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    Huge disappointment, other than Jokubaitis and D-Mo. To leave out Kulboka is absolute nonsense. The dude is next man up to freakin' NBA. Provides better D than any of those occupied coaches ever know, IMO, and provides shooting which we badly needed. Masiulis won't be hitting threes with his thirty % of shooting, he won't crashing the boards either or will be a good fit for JV/Sabonis. Kulboka have legitimate shot to be a real rotation player of Hornets as soon as next season. He delivers in ACB, but fuck it, we are going straight primitive and short term again. No need to get into this discussion we already got it, but to me that's another banal composition and other prove we are the province of BB it terms of coaching and handling the NT. We always been like that we maybe the exception of Kazlauskas. I've watched this completely armless coaching since ever Kazlauskas retired. Quallies have been handled in pathetic manner. Now again we will trash all opponents with basically zero add to the NT except Jokubaitis. What exactly soft as tissue Bendzius is doing in the NT is another great question. Dude can't guard anything. We are fumbling around again in the perspective of the deepest and longest crisis of the NT. The way we handle our NT since 2017, we are such a bleak BB province without any vision, guts, ambitions and understanding what is going in contemporary BB and how must work on out weaknesses. Even clear indications of international scouts and shit, doesn't play a single role here. Fuck that Kulboka was great summer league, fuck that he delivers in ACB, fuck that Hoernets very high on him. Benzius will do the job! We hire scout who is so busy that he even can't follow all NT material, working on his duties for Celtics, while he delivers the list of candidates to Maskoliunas and he just approves because he's also busy. Brilliant plan. NT has been a mess lately and there's little changes...
    Last edited by Straight forward; 02-10-2020 at 01:46 PM.
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  20. #40

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    I understand Kalnietis, Maciulis, Kuzminskas, Motiejunas as the veterans who must be there as this is the path to prepare to OQT. But don't tell me no bullshit how some Bendzius, Valinskas, Dimsa, Gailius, Janavicius had to be in instead of some brightest young talents while some of them are legitimate borderline NBA players. Nah, we are preparing them For what? They never ever will do anything at the real stage of NT. They never did and never will.
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