Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 153

Thread: Euroleague Regular Season: Week 19

  1. #101
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Sure in theory. But PAO's disastrous results in playoffs cannot be explained just with budget, management and coaches choices. Pao's results are in a very positive correlation with Calathes' performance in playoffs.
    I have to notice that you are not the expert regarding money issue because in our debate about Mirotic and Larkin your key argument was money that Barca gave to him.

    As you see Larkin is worth much more then 2.7 milions if we compare his and Mirotic performance until now.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Adon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Athens
    Posts
    3,753
    Country: Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maccabeo View Post
    thats the most funny think. having different opinions make somebody a non-fan
    democracy of regimes
    I have to say that I admire your civilized replies to all that cyber-bulling against you. I may not agree with everything you say but you have the courtesy to express your opinion without personal attacks and insults. I can't say the same to some of those with whom you debate.

  3. #103
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    407
    Country: Germany

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    I remember interview of Jovic and Lucic saying that literally noone in Munich knew who they are and if they said they play for Bayern basketball noone knew that this club exists.
    Not much of a surprise. Noone = circa 30.000, ergo 2%. Munich is a metropolis and a football city, full of arrogant snobs who don´t even know the name of their cleaning personnel. That might be completely different in basketball mekkas like Belgrad and Maccabi, but to be honest I don't really see your point. Do you both really consider, Quincy Acy would perform quite different with less pressure of the fanbase? I don´t have anything against Quincy Acy, just to make that clear. I just thought the ambitions of a club like bayern munich were wrongly underestimated...

    @EverGreen: Obviously, I wrote about the expectations and pressure of the club FCBB as you can read above and honestly, I thought you also meant it that way.

  4. #104
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2,778
    Country: Turkey

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    I have to say that I admire your civilized replies to all that cyber-bulling against you. I may not agree with everything you say but you have the courtesy to express your opinion without personal attacks and insults. I can't say the same to some of those with whom you debate.
    I also agree with this. It is admirable to stay courteous when basically everyone disagrees with you so blatantly - though I'm afraid mr maccabeo might break at some point lol
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  5. #105
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    Like maccabeo, there were some Fener fans who complained about Kalinic even when he was killing every other offense of opponents circa 2017. He had to shoot like 5 three pointers in the final game so that they would acknowledge him. Players like Kalinic, Acy, Reyes in his old age for Madrid, or from NBA Draymond Green or PJ Tucker... They go underrated because they do the dirty work without complaining and get into the heads of their opponents - which is why coaches love them.

    That being said, even the centers need to have some resemblance of a shot nowadays - it would be much better if Acy would shoot 3s at least in a rate to make defenses respect him.
    I am saying you now, Kalinic is playing shity, CoachZ will kill me for this
    What dirty job he is doing, come on, we won three games and now everything is ok? Optimism is at peak is it? No man, he plays awful and even Nunnally is refreshment comparing to him.

  6. #106
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    1,474
    Country: Turkey

    Default

    I still remember the statement of Danilo Barthel that Germany will be wc winner soon.

  7. #107
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,463
    Country: Italy

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    On the topic of:

    A. Maccabi fans criticism on Acy
    I can actually attest to a lot of it. People are not happy with his hesitation from 3. They are not happy that he isn't making something out of nothing like Scottie.
    I think you can categorize Maccabi fans according to two great Maccabi teams:
    1. 2004/5 Pini Gerson's offensively brilliant team, where the official strategy was: "as long as our % scoring is higher than their % scoring", AKA "percentage defense" (Saras and Vujcic being clear defensive liabilities)
    2. 2010 Blatt's terror squad, where they would frustrate the opposition with impregnable defense (Pargo, Perkins, Eidson absolutely stopping every single play, James providing air superiority around the rim)

    I think the fans who liked Gerson's team are not people who would like Acy.
    I think the fans who likes Blatt's team (like me) are people who do like Acy.

    So yeah, there are voices against Acy but in the +/- rating (how well the team does with/without him) and in the greatest test of all - wins, he is overall appreciated and will probably stay (if management isn't going to kick the bucket again)

    B. His 3 point shooting
    Acy is a VERY credible 3pt threat - you leave him alone, you let him build up a streak - you are in trouble!
    There are so many good shooters in Maccabi this year, I am not even going to name them.
    Pretty much everyone other than Black and Hunter can be imagined into a 3'pt play where he is the executor

    C. His defense
    Do me a favor: next game, watch his hands
    Long hands that move quick!
    Look how he's contesting every shot, pass and loose ball with those damn hands!

    Also, one important aspect of defense that we might never be able to quantify: His morale boost.
    He's the kind of crazy MF who hypes up his players.
    Scottie pressing the ball handler? Dorsey reaching in for steals? This is not something to take lightly. Someone is inspiring these players to contribute on defense and I believe Acy might have a considerable part of it.

    D. His value
    700k is a lot of money for Maccabi but, let's be honest, it's a starting salary in a top Eurolegue team.
    Could Maccabi expect to pay 700k for someone considerably better? Not really!
    Casspi is 1.1M and what you got from him? A few good games at the start. Let's face it, Casspi was a flop (I like him but I don't want him in Maccabi).
    Black is 1.2M and what is his contribution right now? Cheering from the Bench?

    That's 2.3M sitting there, doing nothing! Could have spent half of that on any reliable and effective forward (or all of that on a star) and Maccabi would have been 20% better.
    not just for his 3p shooting percent. he is mediocre also from the paint. if u score just from the paint as a center, your 50% is a mediocre %. also he is very insicure with ball n hand , often with no passing ideas.

    i hate gershon and acy

    guess u would be surprised reading that obviously our 2004-5 was a kind of dream team, but i think gershon is a meidiocre coach. so so mediocre as also blatt. two coaches who toatally misconsidered the arch. gershon was devoted to fast transition, blatt just on hard defense. coaches who doesnt know ball moviment for shooters are non-coach in europe. sherf it was hour best coach ever. his last final was a miracle playing great bball. sfair is the second one.


    acy eventual confirm is my 2' sport nightmare actually. (the first one is Inzaghi confirm in lazio considering him a mediocre coach despite his actual 3' place. a very defensive coach!
    acy big hands and moral source for his teammates. guess it something we can say of any american taller than 2mt . moral and glue attitude is just philosophy when u have such a stats.
    casspi? i would never add him. all mta fans were crazy for his add even totally forgetting caloiaro

  8. #108
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2,778
    Country: Turkey

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    I am saying you now, Kalinic is playing shity, CoachZ will kill me for this
    What dirty job he is doing, come on, we won three games and now everything is ok? Optimism is at peak is it? No man, he plays awful and even Nunnally is refreshment comparing to him.
    You are a tad obsessed with him, but of course he isn't playing as we require him to right now. Which is why I mentioned in my original comment 2017, second half of our championship season, not this season. This season, as almost all of our players, he was terrible to start the year - some other guys got in a better form but Kalinic is only marginally better than the start of the season. That being said, I am perfectly fine if he is waiting for the playoffs to reach 100% form
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  9. #109
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    On the topic of:

    A. Maccabi fans criticism on Acy
    I can actually attest to a lot of it. People are not happy with his hesitation from 3. They are not happy that he isn't making something out of nothing like Scottie.
    I think you can categorize Maccabi fans according to two great Maccabi teams:
    1. 2004/5 Pini Gerson's offensively brilliant team, where the official strategy was: "as long as our % scoring is higher than their % scoring", AKA "percentage defense" (Saras and Vujcic being clear defensive liabilities)
    2. 2010 Blatt's terror squad, where they would frustrate the opposition with impregnable defense (Pargo, Perkins, Eidson absolutely stopping every single play, James providing air superiority around the rim)

    I think the fans who liked Gerson's team are not people who would like Acy.
    I think the fans who likes Blatt's team (like me) are people who do like Acy.

    So yeah, there are voices against Acy but in the +/- rating (how well the team does with/without him) and in the greatest test of all - wins, he is overall appreciated and will probably stay (if management isn't going to kick the bucket again)

    B. His 3 point shooting
    Acy is a VERY credible 3pt threat - you leave him alone, you let him build up a streak - you are in trouble!
    There are so many good shooters in Maccabi this year, I am not even going to name them.
    Pretty much everyone other than Black and Hunter can be imagined into a 3'pt play where he is the executor

    C. His defense
    Do me a favor: next game, watch his hands
    Long hands that move quick!
    Look how he's contesting every shot, pass and loose ball with those damn hands!

    Also, one important aspect of defense that we might never be able to quantify: His morale boost.
    He's the kind of crazy MF who hypes up his players.
    Scottie pressing the ball handler? Dorsey reaching in for steals? This is not something to take lightly. Someone is inspiring these players to contribute on defense and I believe Acy might have a considerable part of it.

    D. His value
    700k is a lot of money for Maccabi but, let's be honest, it's a starting salary in a top Eurolegue team.
    Could Maccabi expect to pay 700k for someone considerably better? Not really!
    Casspi is 1.1M and what you got from him? A few good games at the start. Let's face it, Casspi was a flop (I like him but I don't want him in Maccabi).
    Black is 1.2M and what is his contribution right now? Cheering from the Bench?

    That's 2.3M sitting there, doing nothing! Could have spent half of that on any reliable and effective forward (or all of that on a star) and Maccabi would have been 20% better.
    While I understand your comparison, it is just irrelevant to Acy.
    There are no two groups of Maccabi fans: A group that likes Acy and the group dislikes him.
    The vast majority of our fans like the guy and appreciate the tremendous job he is doing + the lack of ego of Acy.

    Macabeo is a character here in the forum, he always pushing the same idea over and over again.
    There are players/coaches he religiously likes/dislike and nothing can't change it.
    In his opinion, Blatt can win an EL title with a mediocre team, and he will still call him a mediocre coach. In his mind Obradovich is overrated, but Pianigiani is elite.
    Acy is crap, but Dibortolomeo is the most important player in Maccabi's squad, and Landsberg one of the greatest talents Maccabi had during this decade.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ljubljana
    Posts
    5,283
    Country: Slovenia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    First of all, I never said that F4 appearance doesn't matter. For me, it would be a fantastic overachievement of PAO and I would celebrate it accordingly. Probably, you confuse me with somebody else

    About the budget, read this:

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurolea...oleague-teams/

    We do have the 14th budget. Zenit,Bayern, Olympiakos Baskonia and Valencia, from the teams you referred, do have bigger than PAO.
    You are right that the best PAO teams were unlucky and faced best teams in competition but even then, our budget was medium for EL standards and for sure far from one of the tops.

    Budgets are very important to become an F4. There are some exceptions like Zalgitis who met the corpse of poor Oly when, at the same time, PAO faced Real.
    When I watch the games vs Real, I feel desperation. Their worst player, almost in every position, is better (and more expensive) than the best of ours. And that's not something...conventional, you can see the quality difference in every play.

    As I said before, different budgets mean different goals. For Real for instance, the final is the minimum target whereas for my team (and yours) the top-8 means something.
    Pao budget 14 mio, with all expenses and taxes? Be serious please. With Pitino is at least 20 mio.
    previously known as Beno

  11. #111
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ljubljana
    Posts
    5,283
    Country: Slovenia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    I have to notice that you are not the expert regarding money issue because in our debate about Mirotic and Larkin your key argument was money that Barca gave to him.

    As you see Larkin is worth much more then 2.7 milions if we compare his and Mirotic performance until now.
    May I inform you that Efes and Larkin didn’t win anything in Euroleague yet.
    previously known as Beno

  12. #112
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    57
    Country: UK

    Default

    I also wanted to write that the treatment of Maccabeo is out of line.
    Different opinions and heated debate is OK but calling people names over the internet... Are you 13?
    *77----*81----*01----*04----*05----*14
    "Hoo, Haa, Ma Kara? CSKA Ahla Ota!"

  13. #113
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    57
    Country: UK

    Default

    going back on topic:

    "sherf it was hour best coach ever"
    I can see where this is coming from. I don't think he was the best coach ever but I think he is the most UNAPPRECIATED!
    He took a broken team and put them back in order, reaching the finals!

    I think Sherf's Maccabi could have won the title back then, if Fizer wasn't injured.

    As for Landesberg being the highest talent... I don't know. I think the kid had potential but grew up with too many holes in his game and the biggest problem - attitude.
    I don't even know where to start in terms of highest talent... Parker, Vujcic, Saras? Fizer, Casspi, Pargo?
    Are we measuring "potential" (Joe Ingles), "real time talent" (Alan Anderson) or "overall past talent" (Papalukas)?

    Marcus Brown, Keith Langford and Oded Katash are some players that other players say were the best ever they've plaid with!
    Berkovic and Jamchi were titans in their time...

    Hell, some people say Eliyahu was more talanted than Casspi... And personally, I think Joe Alexander is the biggest talent/attitude ratio - that guy could have been the EL Kevin Love - he has all the skills, all the athleticism, just none of the will, to play Bbal

    Sofoklis, on a good day, was pure points - might as well keep the ball in the basket cause it's going back in very soon!
    *77----*81----*01----*04----*05----*14
    "Hoo, Haa, Ma Kara? CSKA Ahla Ota!"

  14. #114
    Senior Member Adon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Athens
    Posts
    3,753
    Country: Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Pao budget 14 mio, with all expenses and taxes? Be serious please. With Pitino is at least 20 mio.
    Mind you,I didn't write the article published on eurohoops.
    I estimate the budget for the players below 9 millions without the taxes. But your misunderstanding about PAO's budget explains partially your opinion about PAO's "failure".

  15. #115
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    3,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    May I inform you that Efes and Larkin didn’t win anything in Euroleague yet.
    So Mirotic and Real(Barca) too

  16. #116
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,463
    Country: Italy

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    I also wanted to write that the treatment of Maccabeo is out of line.
    Different opinions and heated debate is OK but calling people names over the internet... Are you 13?
    calling people names...???

  17. #117
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    57
    Country: UK

    Default

    @maccabeo, you have been called a clown and stuff. I hope it's all just friendly banter and I am reading too much into this but if we can keep it to just insulting the players/coaches/owners and not each other, it will be amazing for me
    *77----*81----*01----*04----*05----*14
    "Hoo, Haa, Ma Kara? CSKA Ahla Ota!"

  18. #118
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ljubljana
    Posts
    5,283
    Country: Slovenia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    Mind you,I didn't write the article published on eurohoops.
    I estimate the budget for the players below 9 millions without the taxes. But your misunderstanding about PAO's budget explains partially your opinion about PAO's "failure".
    9 mio + taxes is very close to 13 mio. Than you have Pitino, coaching staff and ali other expanses. It’s a lot more than 14 mio.
    previously known as Beno

  19. #119
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    57
    Country: UK

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    9 mio + taxes is very close to 13 mio. Than you have Pitino, coaching staff and ali other expanses. It’s a lot more than 14 mio.
    I don't know what these numbers represent, but if these are the total budgets of the B.C. - a lot of it is:
    Flights, Administrative staff, court rent, security, medical expenses, youth teams... And how each team structures all of this could be amazingly different.

    Imagine the security cost difference between Maccabi and Zenit.
    Or the flight cost differences between CSKA-Madrid and Bayern-Madrid...
    *77----*81----*01----*04----*05----*14
    "Hoo, Haa, Ma Kara? CSKA Ahla Ota!"

  20. #120
    Senior Member markkanen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    524
    Country: Finland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    First of all, I never said that F4 appearance doesn't matter. For me, it would be a fantastic overachievement of PAO and I would celebrate it accordingly. Probably, you confuse me with somebody else

    About the budget, read this:

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurolea...oleague-teams/

    We do have the 14th budget. Zenit,Bayern, Olympiakos Baskonia and Valencia, from the teams you referred, do have bigger than PAO.
    You are right that the best PAO teams were unlucky and faced best teams in competition but even then, our budget was medium for EL standards and for sure far from one of the tops.

    Budgets are very important to become an F4. There are some exceptions like Zalgitis who met the corpse of poor Oly when, at the same time, PAO faced Real.
    When I watch the games vs Real, I feel desperation. Their worst player, almost in every position, is better (and more expensive) than the best of ours. And that's not something...conventional, you can see the quality difference in every play.

    As I said before, different budgets mean different goals. For Real for instance, the final is the minimum target whereas for my team (and yours) the top-8 means something.
    I don't believe in numbers presented in this article. So, basically greek clubs have small budgets but much better players than Zenit (26 millions) and Bayern (23 millions)?

Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •