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Thread: Euroleague Regular Season: Week 19

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by maccabeo View Post
    glue...well, u can surey find better glue on market and at lower salary who would be much better than 4.9 pir player in 20 min, something that doesnt say everything of his dramatic season. u should look at his full stats but even if u will, u ll not learn of his open shoot refused and his insicurity every time he has the all
    It's hard to engage in the offence fluently when you were hustling on defense. This is well known for decades. Maccabi used to play with 4 people on offence in the great years of "The Dove" (let's see if you get that one!).
    The objective of the defensive stopper is to read the play, sabotage it and move the ball to the playmaker ASAP. Hard to expect the defensive lead to already be working on the next play!

    Also:
    Not only that defense doesn't show on stats as much as offence, some defensive work is not even measurable but easily seen with the eye.

    Is there a stat on how many times a player lunges to the ground to grab a loose ball?
    Is there a stat on how many times a player closes his man on rebound, so the center (who is ultimately the main rebounder) can secure the rebound?

    Just ask yourself why defensive rebounds are considered a standard for the defending side and offensive rebounds are considered a bonus.
    It's because the defensive side are all expected to cover the second chance, as a part of sabotaging the play.

    Too many games I saw Acy absorbing contact from much bigger players in order to even the odds with Maccabi's frontline, which isn't very big.
    Too many to call Acy a chump.

    Is he worth 700k?
    Well, considering a team (Maccabi, especially!) could easily waste more on a flop, it's decent value.
    Maccabi have to count their blessings and not get nitty-gritty with viable players.
    They salvages Wilbekin, they remodelled JohnD, they got 4 times their money on Hunter, Bryant was a steal, Cohen matured into a viable player...

    Obryant, for example, had a lot more upsides than Acy but the team with him was a "I don't give a fork" mess.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    It's hard to engage in the offence fluently when you were hustling on defense. This is well known for decades. Maccabi used to play with 4 people on offence in the great years of "The Dove" (let's see if you get that one!).
    The objective of the defensive stopper is to read the play, sabotage it and move the ball to the playmaker ASAP. Hard to expect the defensive lead to already be working on the next play!

    Also:
    Not only that defense doesn't show on stats as much as offence, some defensive work is not even measurable but easily seen with the eye.

    Is there a stat on how many times a player lunges to the ground to grab a loose ball?
    Is there a stat on how many times a player closes his man on rebound, so the center (who is ultimately the main rebounder) can secure the rebound?

    Just ask yourself why defensive rebounds are considered a standard for the defending side and offensive rebounds are considered a bonus.
    It's because the defensive side are all expected to cover the second chance, as a part of sabotaging the play.
    Thank you.

    I (PAO fan) saw the wrong end of Acy constantly throwing spanners at our offence and take my hat off to him. He only registered a 9 PIR but destroyed 10-12 of our plays (especially in the 4th with plenty of energy) allowing Mac to run the court and finish up in a 4-6 secs transition either with a lay up or 3p by a free man. He completely f*cked our P'nR and Calathes had a season low 4 assists. Too bad stats can't register a man coming across and impeding a pass for 2 easy points.

    Offensively his only problem are 3p's. 51% 2p and 80% 1p's are excellent.

    The only ever player in the history of European basketball to engage offence fluently after hustling in defence was Diamantidis who was a defensive BEAST but also found the time to hand out assists, score points and clutch. But he's unique. I doubt we'll ever see another player like him.

    When Bodiroga left PAO. I cried for a day. When Diamantidis stopped, I cried for 3 days.
    Last edited by EverGreen; 01-16-2020 at 11:52 AM.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbFl2mO8E0

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    Thank you.

    I (PAO fan) saw the wrong end of Acy constantly throwing spanners at our offence and take my hat off to him. He only registered a 9 PIR but destroyed 10-12 of our plays (especially in the 4th with plenty of energy) allowing Mac to run the court and finish up in a 4-6 secs transition either with a lay up or 3p by a free man. He completely f*cked our P'nR and Calathes had a season low 4 assists. Too bad stats can't register a man coming across and impeding a pass for 2 easy points.

    Offensively his only problem are 3p's. 51% 2p and 80% 1p's are excellent.

    The only ever player in the history of European basketball to engage offence fluently after hustling in defence was Diamantidis who was a defensive BEAST but also found the time to hand out assists, score points and clutch. But he's unique. I doubt we'll ever see another player like him.

    When Bodiroga left PAO. I cried for a day. When Diamantidis stopped, I cried for 3 days.
    a good def player , can be efficent in offense. acy match vs pana is the lonely positive.one match in 20 games, come on.

  4. #84
    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maccabeo View Post
    a good def player , can be efficent in offense. acy match vs pana is the lonely positive.one match in 20 games, come on.
    I don't read other Maccabi fans complaining about Acy, just you.

    We PAO fans on this forum and in general more or less agree with our player's estimations.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbFl2mO8E0

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    It's hard to engage in the offence fluently when you were hustling on defense. This is well known for decades. Maccabi used to play with 4 people on offence in the great years of "The Dove" (let's see if you get that one!).
    The objective of the defensive stopper is to read the play, sabotage it and move the ball to the playmaker ASAP. Hard to expect the defensive lead to already be working on the next play!

    Also:
    Not only that defense doesn't show on stats as much as offence, some defensive work is not even measurable but easily seen with the eye.

    Is there a stat on how many times a player lunges to the ground to grab a loose ball?
    Is there a stat on how many times a player closes his man on rebound, so the center (who is ultimately the main rebounder) can secure the rebound?

    Just ask yourself why defensive rebounds are considered a standard for the defending side and offensive rebounds are considered a bonus.
    It's because the defensive side are all expected to cover the second chance, as a part of sabotaging the play.

    Too many games I saw Acy absorbing contact from much bigger players in order to even the odds with Maccabi's frontline, which isn't very big.
    Too many to call Acy a chump.

    Is he worth 700k?
    Well, considering a team (Maccabi, especially!) could easily waste more on a flop, it's decent value.
    Maccabi have to count their blessings and not get nitty-gritty with viable players.
    They salvages Wilbekin, they remodelled JohnD, they got 4 times their money on Hunter, Bryant was a steal, Cohen matured into a viable player...

    Obryant, for example, had a lot more upsides than Acy but the team with him was a "I don't give a fork" mess.
    as stats doesnt say everything in defense, dosnt say verything i offense, side where he is always worst than his percent, but mainly i cant understand something crucial in your thesis: where is written than a good defensive player (and imo he is just an av def player) MUST be totally unable to score and shoot? thats something enough to misconsider your thesis. even more , we are writing of an american added to play a starting five season in maccabi, not of an unknown minor israeli. so the question is: is there, or, there was someone better on market in pf position, a solid defensive big man able to score? absolutely yes. last but not least, bball coaches think there are no defensive or offensive players in bball . every player must be able to do everything. if u are an av def player and nothing in offense ,u cant play this level. u even cant eurocup. probably , even italian league. sure imo id never consider him for any italian league team

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    I don't read other Maccabi fans complaining about Acy, just you.

    .
    as u couldnt read of fans complain of pargo, kane, ohayon, mekel, planninic, lasme,onuaku
    thats the way mta fans (mostly) are
    i dont use to claim of my fav players. somethimes i wrote of them like lately fischer morris blu calo diba as in the past i wrote of my icons magee huffman zimmermann and obviously stars of 2004-5, but rarely. thats because i think to improve a team u shouldnt say of your fav, u should underline problems
    Last edited by maccabeo; 01-16-2020 at 12:40 PM.

  7. #87
    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    I repeast he only had a 3p % which is very low. I'm sure he'll improve it. It's first season playing hard core Euroleage basketball. Most players coming from the NBA with no fiba rules experience are having problems adjusting to the intensity and pressure of the league. There is massive pressure at Maccabi. Who know..if he played for Bayern he could have been much better. There is no pressure there.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbFl2mO8E0

  8. #88
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Like maccabeo, there were some Fener fans who complained about Kalinic even when he was killing every other offense of opponents circa 2017. He had to shoot like 5 three pointers in the final game so that they would acknowledge him. Players like Kalinic, Acy, Reyes in his old age for Madrid, or from NBA Draymond Green or PJ Tucker... They go underrated because they do the dirty work without complaining and get into the heads of their opponents - which is why coaches love them.

    That being said, even the centers need to have some resemblance of a shot nowadays - it would be much better if Acy would shoot 3s at least in a rate to make defenses respect him.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  9. #89
    Senior Member MikeMaccabiFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    I don't read other Maccabi fans complaining about Acy, just you.

    We PAO fans on this forum and in general more or less agree with our player's estimations.
    That's because he's not real Maccabi fan. Always bitches on and on. He also makes constant 'straw man' arguments against imaginary Maccabi fans, which never existed.
    Myself, never liked Ohayon or Mekel, and never heard any real Maccabi fans here liking Onuaku or Planninic, and we did criticize stupid management decisions over years here or in comments on news sites in Hebrew, as well as sounding our displeasure in Yad Eliyahu, when needed. We do support our team, always. And I don't recall anyone of real Maccabi fans criticizing Morris, Fischer, Caloiaro or, especially, (G-d forbid) Blu.
    On the other hand, the guy never appreciates little gems like Pargo, Lasme, Acy, etc., and overestimates others. I like DiBa myself , but he's far from being irreplaceable, or superstar. Magic of this year team, that there are not many irreplaceable players.
    The guy is simply NOT real Maccabi fan, despite nick and repeated devotion rants. Period.
    Yalla Maccabi!!!

    Save English, ban macabeo....

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    I repeast he only had a 3p % which is very low. I'm sure he'll improve it. It's first season playing hard core Euroleage basketball. Most players coming from the NBA with no fiba rules experience are having problems adjusting to the intensity and pressure of the league. There is massive pressure at Maccabi. Who know..if he played for Bayern he could have been much better. There is no pressure there.
    Dude, the pressure in munich is immense, we are talking about Bayern Munich! They sacked Radonjic with a record of 14:0 in the national competition, cause the are not even close to meet their goals on international stage, which in fact was to fight for the Top8. As soon as the new arena is built (2022/2023), their goal is compete for the Final Four.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by thiago94 View Post
    Dude, the pressure in munich is immense, we are talking about Bayern Munich! They sacked Radonjic with a record of 14:0 in the national competition, cause the are not even close to meet their goals on international stage, which in fact was to fight for the Top8. As soon as the new arena is built (2022/2023), their goal is compete for the Final Four.
    I mean, Munich could win a couple more games and not be at the last place, but did they really think this team would compete for top 8? The way I see it there are no leaders in this Munich team and the caliber of players are not enough to fight for playoffs. Now, if they sacked Radonjic for choosing those players that's another story
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  12. #92
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    On the topic of:

    A. Maccabi fans criticism on Acy
    I can actually attest to a lot of it. People are not happy with his hesitation from 3. They are not happy that he isn't making something out of nothing like Scottie.
    I think you can categorize Maccabi fans according to two great Maccabi teams:
    1. 2004/5 Pini Gerson's offensively brilliant team, where the official strategy was: "as long as our % scoring is higher than their % scoring", AKA "percentage defense" (Saras and Vujcic being clear defensive liabilities)
    2. 2010 Blatt's terror squad, where they would frustrate the opposition with impregnable defense (Pargo, Perkins, Eidson absolutely stopping every single play, James providing air superiority around the rim)

    I think the fans who liked Gerson's team are not people who would like Acy.
    I think the fans who likes Blatt's team (like me) are people who do like Acy.

    So yeah, there are voices against Acy but in the +/- rating (how well the team does with/without him) and in the greatest test of all - wins, he is overall appreciated and will probably stay (if management isn't going to kick the bucket again)

    B. His 3 point shooting
    Acy is a VERY credible 3pt threat - you leave him alone, you let him build up a streak - you are in trouble!
    There are so many good shooters in Maccabi this year, I am not even going to name them.
    Pretty much everyone other than Black and Hunter can be imagined into a 3'pt play where he is the executor

    C. His defense
    Do me a favor: next game, watch his hands
    Long hands that move quick!
    Look how he's contesting every shot, pass and loose ball with those damn hands!

    Also, one important aspect of defense that we might never be able to quantify: His morale boost.
    He's the kind of crazy MF who hypes up his players.
    Scottie pressing the ball handler? Dorsey reaching in for steals? This is not something to take lightly. Someone is inspiring these players to contribute on defense and I believe Acy might have a considerable part of it.

    D. His value
    700k is a lot of money for Maccabi but, let's be honest, it's a starting salary in a top Eurolegue team.
    Could Maccabi expect to pay 700k for someone considerably better? Not really!
    Casspi is 1.1M and what you got from him? A few good games at the start. Let's face it, Casspi was a flop (I like him but I don't want him in Maccabi).
    Black is 1.2M and what is his contribution right now? Cheering from the Bench?

    That's 2.3M sitting there, doing nothing! Could have spent half of that on any reliable and effective forward (or all of that on a star) and Maccabi would have been 20% better.

  13. #93
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    Bottom line is I don't think any team could have all players working perfectly!

    Some teams could have 10 amazing players in the roster, each one would be a prima-star on his own, but, on any given game, only 3 players show up.

    It's how humans work. We see someone else taking the lead, we stay out of their way.

    Would Acy play better if he wouldn't rely on Hunter and Willbekin? I think so!
    Would his 3pt% be higher if the rest of the team wasn't incredible from the 3? I think so!

    But I hope to not be tested

  14. #94
    Senior Member MikeMaccabiFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    On the topic of:

    A. Maccabi fans criticism on Acy
    I can actually attest to a lot of it. People are not happy with his hesitation from 3. They are not happy that he isn't making something out of nothing like Scottie.
    I think you can categorize Maccabi fans according to two great Maccabi teams:
    1. 2004/5 Pini Gerson's offensively brilliant team, where the official strategy was: "as long as our % scoring is higher than their % scoring", AKA "percentage defense" (Saras and Vujcic being clear defensive liabilities)
    2. 2010 Blatt's terror squad, where they would frustrate the opposition with impregnable defense (Pargo, Perkins, Eidson absolutely stopping every single play, James providing air superiority around the rim)

    I think the fans who liked Gerson's team are not people who would like Acy.
    I think the fans who likes Blatt's team (like me) are people who do like Acy.

    So yeah, there are voices against Acy but in the +/- rating (how well the team does with/without him) and in the greatest test of all - wins, he is overall appreciated and will probably stay (if management isn't going to kick the bucket again)

    B. His 3 point shooting
    Acy is a VERY credible 3pt threat - you leave him alone, you let him build up a streak - you are in trouble!
    There are so many good shooters in Maccabi this year, I am not even going to name them.
    Pretty much everyone other than Black and Hunter can be imagined into a 3'pt play where he is the executor

    C. His defense
    Do me a favor: next game, watch his hands
    Long hands that move quick!
    Look how he's contesting every shot, pass and loose ball with those damn hands!

    Also, one important aspect of defense that we might never be able to quantify: His morale boost.
    He's the kind of crazy MF who hypes up his players.
    Scottie pressing the ball handler? Dorsey reaching in for steals? This is not something to take lightly. Someone is inspiring these players to contribute on defense and I believe Acy might have a considerable part of it.

    D. His value
    700k is a lot of money for Maccabi but, let's be honest, it's a starting salary in a top Eurolegue team.
    Could Maccabi expect to pay 700k for someone considerably better? Not really!
    Casspi is 1.1M and what you got from him? A few good games at the start. Let's face it, Casspi was a flop (I like him but I don't want him in Maccabi).
    Black is 1.2M and what is his contribution right now? Cheering from the Bench?

    That's 2.3M sitting there, doing nothing! Could have spent half of that on any reliable and effective forward (or all of that on a star) and Maccabi would have been 20% better.
    I agree, however I did like both teams - 2004-6 and 2010. That being said, Vujcic's defense was partly mental thing - as final game against Bologna in 2004 showed.
    But, nevertheless, I do lke Acy, and as you are, often am frustrated with his hesitation to shoot from 3, especially when instead shooting he tries to penetrate and turns the ball over, because of steps... But, otherwise, he is great asset. Especially when 2.3M are not even sitting there, they are in USA... I'm still hopeful that Black will be there for playoffs, but Casspi is huge flop.
    Yalla Maccabi!!!

    Save English, ban macabeo....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    4. PAO, with the 14th budget this season, is at the sixth place. Reflect on that. Since PAO's budget decreased, PAO was always a PO team. Calathes was always the main factor for this achievement.
    I'm sorry, I don't know much about taxes in Greece, but PAO's budget is 14th in euroleague? And which club have less budget? I think that Zenit, Zalgiris, Alba, Asvel, Red Star, Bayern, Olympiacos, Baskonia and Valencia pay their players less than PAO pay their. Regarding the above discussion (never ending about Calathes, is he a disaster or is he magnificent ), you had great team and big budget in season 2016-17: Singleton, Gist, Calathes, James, Bourousis, Gabriel and you failed, and your 2015-16 team was a disaster, they shouldn't even manage to grab a TOP 8 spot, that was an awfull team (Pavlovic, Feldeine, Kuzmic, Jankovic, Haynes, Raduljica). And your team in season 2017-18 was quite strong (Singleton, James, Denmon, Leka, Gabriel, Calathes, Lojeski, and so on). I guess you were unfortunate that when you had big budget and great players you played against best teams in competition, and when you played against weaker teams you had awfull team.

    Regarding the number of f4 appearances, that also matters, and I don't know how you can say that all that matters is title for your club, and yet your goal is always only TOP 8? I beg to differ, one thing is tradition and history full of trophies, the other is result and there is the difference between f4 season and TOP 8 season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thiago94 View Post
    Dude, the pressure in munich is immense, we are talking about Bayern Munich! They sacked Radonjic with a record of 14:0 in the national competition, cause the are not even close to meet their goals on international stage, which in fact was to fight for the Top8. As soon as the new arena is built (2022/2023), their goal is compete for the Final Four.
    I remember interview of Jovic and Lucic saying that literally noone in Munich knew who they are and if they said they play for Bayern basketball noone knew that this club exists.

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    That's the difference between Mac and BM. You are mobbed in the street for photo's and chat when you play for someone like Mac. Basketball isn't even the no.2 sport in Germany.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbFl2mO8E0

  18. #98
    Senior Member Adon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markkanen View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't know much about taxes in Greece, but PAO's budget is 14th in euroleague? And which club have less budget? I think that Zenit, Zalgiris, Alba, Asvel, Red Star, Bayern, Olympiacos, Baskonia and Valencia pay their players less than PAO pay their. Regarding the above discussion (never ending about Calathes, is he a disaster or is he magnificent ), you had great team and big budget in season 2016-17: Singleton, Gist, Calathes, James, Bourousis, Gabriel and you failed, and your 2015-16 team was a disaster, they shouldn't even manage to grab a TOP 8 spot, that was an awfull team (Pavlovic, Feldeine, Kuzmic, Jankovic, Haynes, Raduljica). And your team in season 2017-18 was quite strong (Singleton, James, Denmon, Leka, Gabriel, Calathes, Lojeski, and so on). I guess you were unfortunate that when you had big budget and great players you played against best teams in competition, and when you played against weaker teams you had awfull team.

    Regarding the number of f4 appearances, that also matters, and I don't know how you can say that all that matters is title for your club, and yet your goal is always only TOP 8? I beg to differ, one thing is tradition and history full of trophies, the other is result and there is the difference between f4 season and TOP 8 season.
    First of all, I never said that F4 appearance doesn't matter. For me, it would be a fantastic overachievement of PAO and I would celebrate it accordingly. Probably, you confuse me with somebody else

    About the budget, read this:

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurolea...oleague-teams/

    We do have the 14th budget. Zenit,Bayern, Olympiakos Baskonia and Valencia, from the teams you referred, do have bigger than PAO.
    You are right that the best PAO teams were unlucky and faced best teams in competition but even then, our budget was medium for EL standards and for sure far from one of the tops.

    Budgets are very important to become an F4. There are some exceptions like Zalgitis who met the corpse of poor Oly when, at the same time, PAO faced Real.
    When I watch the games vs Real, I feel desperation. Their worst player, almost in every position, is better (and more expensive) than the best of ours. And that's not something...conventional, you can see the quality difference in every play.

    As I said before, different budgets mean different goals. For Real for instance, the final is the minimum target whereas for my team (and yours) the top-8 means something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeMaccabiFan View Post
    The guy is simply NOT real Maccabi fan
    thats the most funny think. having different opinions make somebody a non-fan
    democracy of regimes

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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    That's the difference between Mac and BM. You are mobbed in the street for photo's and chat when you play for someone like Mac. Basketball isn't even the no.2 sport in Germany.
    I wouldnt even say top 10 sport but they are very good in marketing etc. Turks and Greeks can learn many things from them about financial issues and organization referring to bb.

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