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Thread: Euroleague Regular Season: Week 19

  1. #121
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    I don't know what these numbers represent, but if these are the total budgets of the B.C. - a lot of it is:
    Flights, Administrative staff, court rent, security, medical expenses, youth teams... And how each team structures all of this could be amazingly different.

    Imagine the security cost difference between Maccabi and Zenit.
    Or the flight cost differences between CSKA-Madrid and Bayern-Madrid...
    Looking at the Numbers, it’s obvious that some Numbers are the whole budget and other just cost of players.
    previously known as Beno

  2. #122
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Come on guys, everybody knows Greek teams play with the total budget of 10 million, and some players play just for the love of red or green jerseys
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  3. #123
    Senior Member MikeMaccabiFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    I also wanted to write that the treatment of Maccabeo is out of line.
    Different opinions and heated debate is OK but calling people names over the internet... Are you 13?
    Calling names? The guy would be laughed out of any political forum for using fallacious arguments - most of the list, but mainly straw men one. It.s hard to take him seriously, but if anybody snowflake enough to call this cyberbullying - I reject it. It's just impossible to argue with him, which is a purpose of the forum.
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  4. #124
    Senior Member MikeMaccabiFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    going back on topic:

    "sherf it was hour best coach ever"
    I can see where this is coming from. I don't think he was the best coach ever but I think he is the most UNAPPRECIATED!
    He took a broken team and put them back in order, reaching the finals!

    I think Sherf's Maccabi could have won the title back then, if Fizer wasn't injured.

    As for Landesberg being the highest talent... I don't know. I think the kid had potential but grew up with too many holes in his game and the biggest problem - attitude.
    I don't even know where to start in terms of highest talent... Parker, Vujcic, Saras? Fizer, Casspi, Pargo?
    Are we measuring "potential" (Joe Ingles), "real time talent" (Alan Anderson) or "overall past talent" (Papalukas)?

    Marcus Brown, Keith Langford and Oded Katash are some players that other players say were the best ever they've plaid with!
    Berkovic and Jamchi were titans in their time...

    Hell, some people say Eliyahu was more talanted than Casspi... And personally, I think Joe Alexander is the biggest talent/attitude ratio - that guy could have been the EL Kevin Love - he has all the skills, all the athleticism, just none of the will, to play Bbal

    Sofoklis, on a good day, was pure points - might as well keep the ball in the basket cause it's going back in very soon!
    I did like Sherf as a coach, really bad luck with Fizer, good basketball intelligence. I had a luck to sit in plane before him and couple of his friends on 'Olympic' (RIP) flight from Tel Aviv to Athens in 2002 - he talked about Greek basketball with depth and intelligence for almost whole flight. He has impressive intelligence and knowledge, wish he was better writer though. As for being best coach - no, Gershon and Blatt were better surely.
    And again it.s friendly banter, but we all need to grow up - if you can't reason with s person on forum - what's the point?
    Yalla Maccabi!!!

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  5. #125
    Senior Member Demetrios I. Soter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    First of all, I never said that F4 appearance doesn't matter. For me, it would be a fantastic overachievement of PAO and I would celebrate it accordingly. Probably, you confuse me with somebody else

    About the budget, read this:

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurolea...oleague-teams/

    We do have the 14th budget. Zenit,Bayern, Olympiakos Baskonia and Valencia, from the teams you referred, do have bigger than PAO.
    You are right that the best PAO teams were unlucky and faced best teams in competition but even then, our budget was medium for EL standards and for sure far from one of the tops.

    Budgets are very important to become an F4. There are some exceptions like Zalgitis who met the corpse of poor Oly when, at the same time, PAO faced Real.
    When I watch the games vs Real, I feel desperation. Their worst player, almost in every position, is better (and more expensive) than the best of ours. And that's not something...conventional, you can see the quality difference in every play.

    As I said before, different budgets mean different goals. For Real for instance, the final is the minimum target whereas for my team (and yours) the top-8 means something.
    Infact the chance to get to the final4 with a 14th budget are very small or let's say if you belong to 1/3 lowest budgets in the league, it´s something like 10% or 15% chance, like out of 40teams reaching the finals there are maybe 4-5 low budget teams. Such win only happens when the circumstances are almost ideal, you overperform and the opponent underperform. Panathinaikos belong with under 10Mio for player salaries to the low budget teams.
    I don't think any of us have the right to blame Calathes for not making it to Final 4 but of course for having bad games. But F4 is a team effort. And then there is also a coach/management involved, who know it better, I guess then we here in the forum. If they would see an alternative, more promising Playmaker who can bring more to the team, they would act. We should also not forget that it is a tradition for Panathinaikos and fans to have a greek star btw captain.

    In 16/17 playoffs it was his first season as a leader after Diamantidis and he was weak! (but complete new team and coach and his first leader experience in Euroleague)
    In 17/18 playoffs, Calathes was strong!
    In 18/19 playoffs, Calathes was weak!
    What will happen in 19/20 I will personal set as a benchmark for judging his effectiveness for Panathinaikos because of his individual bad stats in 18/19 playoffs and if it happend again but at same time I don't expect them/him to beat Real or Barcelona "three times" or I expect it can happen and the chance to happen is 10 to 15% with our current roster and not even win against Efes, Maccabi, CSKA but for this teams I expect at least a hard fight with results, so a close series.

    I think Panathinaikos will have better chances of reaching the F4 next season. Little more budget because of the new tax rate and Pitino will know what players he need. Next season should be a good one.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by markkanen View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't know much about taxes in Greece, but PAO's budget is 14th in euroleague? And which club have less budget? I think that Zenit, Zalgiris, Alba, Asvel, Red Star, Bayern, Olympiacos, Baskonia and Valencia pay their players less than PAO pay their. Regarding the above discussion (never ending about Calathes, is he a disaster or is he magnificent ), you had great team and big budget in season 2016-17: Singleton, Gist, Calathes, James, Bourousis, Gabriel and you failed, and your 2015-16 team was a disaster, they shouldn't even manage to grab a TOP 8 spot, that was an awfull team (Pavlovic, Feldeine, Kuzmic, Jankovic, Haynes, Raduljica). And your team in season 2017-18 was quite strong (Singleton, James, Denmon, Leka, Gabriel, Calathes, Lojeski, and so on). I guess you were unfortunate that when you had big budget and great players you played against best teams in competition, and when you played against weaker teams you had awfull team.

    Regarding the number of f4 appearances, that also matters, and I don't know how you can say that all that matters is title for your club, and yet your goal is always only TOP 8? I beg to differ, one thing is tradition and history full of trophies, the other is result and there is the difference between f4 season and TOP 8 season.
    zenit budget is 25 millions. according to the russian league officials.

    teams with bigger budget compared to panathinaikos
    real
    barcelona
    csska
    khimki
    zenit
    armani
    maccabi
    efes
    fener

    thats 9 for sure. about the rest not so sure but i think bayern is also bigger.

    f4 matters to low budget and low brandname teams. for panathinaikos what only matters is the trophy. nobody cares about the 2nd,its all about the winner. for zalgiris or baskonia or partizan or kuban or any other team of that caliber maybe reaching a f4 is a historic achievement but not for teams like panathinaikos,csska,real,maccabi. csska has been in the f4 every year (expect for 2011) since early 2000's. yet themselves considered themselves failures cause they didnt want as much as they could (especially the 2009-2016 era until they got that one)
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  7. #127
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    One thing I agree with is that it is stupid to count F4s and put them on banners in the arena etc. That is just stupid and shows an inferiority complex.

    On the other hand, using the excuse "We don't care about the F4, all we want is trophies" is extreme bullshit. You have to get to F4 to win the title and lift the trophy. So, yes, every time should strive to get to F4, even when you don't have the greatest roster and budget because once you get there, it's a shitty 1-game format, 2 games in 3 days etc. That is a perfect chance for even a weaker team to get their hands on the trophy.

    PAO is a great club, one of the greatest basketball clubs in Europe ever. In the span of 1995-2012, 12 Final Fours in 17 seasons, 6 Euroleague titles. That is just fantastic. Since 2012, zero F4s and hence no trophies. It is time to acknowledge that PAO is not basketball royalty at the moment. They will always be a great club, one of the greatest ever due to their history, but as of now they are not an elite club in Euroleague.

    Before I get attacked about budgets, bare in mind this. Budgets are a changing story all the time. For a number of years PAO was priviledge budget-wise compared to many others, but times have changed. If it is true (not necessarily in my opinion, but the influence is huge) that in today's Euroleague only way to consistently win trophies is by having a huge budget, then a team like PAO has to be able to find. Precisely, because of their stature, history etc. If you can't then tough luck. Having a financialy strong club is a part of the game as well.

    Until something changes, and you once again start contending for titles, it is a bit sad to brush of F4s as not important.

  8. #128
    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    OK. Let's go over the PAO budget again in euros

    Calathes 2,3 mil
    Fredette 1,7 mil
    Johnson 1,1 mil
    Deshawn 800K
    Pappas 800K
    Papapetrou 800K
    Papagiannis 600K
    Wiley 600K
    Rice 400K
    Mitoglou 250K
    Vougioukas 250K
    Bentil 220
    Brown 100 (remaining contract bought by Tofas)
    Rautins 30K a montn PAO. PAO retain right to release without comp.
    Pedoulakis 300K
    Pitino 300K.

    All that is 10,5 MIL euros without taxes.
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  9. #129
    Senior Member Jazz's Avatar
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    I think Bob spends more time reflecting on Calathes' playoff stats than he does on the many mysteries of Twin Peaks.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    OK. Let's go over the PAO budget again in euros

    Calathes 2,3 mil
    Fredette 1,7 mil
    Johnson 1,1 mil
    Deshawn 800K
    Pappas 800K
    Papapetrou 800K
    Papagiannis 600K
    Wiley 600K
    Rice 400K
    Mitoglou 250K
    Vougioukas 250K
    Bentil 220
    Brown 100 (remaining contract bought by Tofas)
    Rautins 30K a montn PAO. PAO retain right to release without comp.
    Pedoulakis 300K
    Pitino 300K.

    All that is 10,5 MIL euros without taxes.
    johnson doesnt get 1.1M,pitino probably gets more,pedoulakis probably didnt even get 50K,mitoglou gets 400K (when he signed he started with 200K on a 4year deal worth 2 millions) and i read about fredette he is also not getting that much money. the budget is probably around there 10-10.5 million though. with taxes and other stuff it goes up to like 17-18 in total. 10th or 11th in euroleague
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  11. #131
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    I wish we had some kind of transparency on budgets in the EL. Please forgive me but I don't believe any of these numbers, including the salaries of Efes players. Those budget rankings are usually only guesses.
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  12. #132
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    You are a tad obsessed with him, but of course he isn't playing as we require him to right now. Which is why I mentioned in my original comment 2017, second half of our championship season, not this season. This season, as almost all of our players, he was terrible to start the year - some other guys got in a better form but Kalinic is only marginally better than the start of the season. That being said, I am perfectly fine if he is waiting for the playoffs to reach 100% form
    I see the opposite type of obsession in your persistent desire to defend everything that stinks in Fener. Come on man, do you realy think that with 4th budget in EL Fener doesn't deserve better roster? I am delighted with your energy to find something good where everything is burned long ago.

  13. #133
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    I see the opposite type of obsession in your persistent desire to defend everything that stinks in Fener. Come on man, do you realy think that with 4th budget in EL Fener doesn't deserve better roster? I am delighted with your energy to find something good where everything is burned long ago.
    I am generally optimistic, but I don't believe as much as you make it sound like. Lauvergne is terrible, Vesely will probably never reach his peak performance again, Kalinic is on a decline since 2017 etc. I was just talking about his 2017 performance and people still treating him like dogshit back then, you somehow turned the conversation as if I am optimistic about this year's team. That was never the topic before you derailed it.
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  14. #134
    Senior Member Gudura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen;1338784
    [B
    Pitino 300K.[/B]
    I have high doubts about this...it should be at least double of it
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by saras View Post
    zenit budget is 25 millions. according to the russian league officials.

    teams with bigger budget compared to panathinaikos
    real
    barcelona
    csska
    khimki
    zenit
    armani
    maccabi
    efes
    fener

    thats 9 for sure. about the rest not so sure but i think bayern is also bigger.
    First of all, Zalgiris has european champions title, so f4 is not "historic achievement". Second, in your glory days, with Obradovic and others, you had much more money to spend, and that was one of the main reasons why you won so much titles. Right now your success would be to reach f4, because it's different club right now, with less money than before.
    Third, what is your opinion about this: you say that Zenit and Bayern have more money than your team, so why is PAO clear favorite in games against Zenit and Bayern? Better players, better coach, what is the reason behind the fact that you are clear favorite in Russia against Zenit, and Zenit have 26 milions, PAO only 14 milions?

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeMaccabiFan View Post
    Calling names? The guy would be laughed out of any political forum for using fallacious arguments - most of the list, but mainly straw men one. It.s hard to take him seriously, but if anybody snowflake enough to call this cyberbullying - I reject it. It's just impossible to argue with him, which is a purpose of the forum.
    Calling someone a snowflake doesn't put you in a power position and (for me) it invalidates any further ideas that you might want to discuss. Have a good day.
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  17. #137
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    Until we have transparency, as Levenspiel said, we can't really have a solid basis for discussing budgets. Only some "clear cut" cases like Barca and Real. But it is not surprising to me that Valencia, a competitor in the world's second best basketball league could have a bigger budget than Pao or that Zenit, that needs to convince players to go to the Russia to play for a relatively unknown team could have a bigger budget than Oly.
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by markkanen View Post
    First of all, Zalgiris has european champions title, so f4 is not "historic achievement". Second, in your glory days, with Obradovic and others, you had much more money to spend, and that was one of the main reasons why you won so much titles. Right now your success would be to reach f4, because it's different club right now, with less money than before.
    Third, what is your opinion about this: you say that Zenit and Bayern have more money than your team, so why is PAO clear favorite in games against Zenit and Bayern? Better players, better coach, what is the reason behind the fact that you are clear favorite in Russia against Zenit, and Zenit have 26 milions, PAO only 14 milions?
    panathinaikos budget is not 14,its like 17-18. the total salaries are 10-10.5 million.

    panathinaikos has less expenditure for travelling (zenit travels around europe and russia which is even bigger than europe) and russian teams in general overpay players due to the climate and other stuff to convince them to live in russia. for example panathinaikos was interested in signing austin hollins this summer. we proposed him like 300-350 if i recall. then zenit came in and agreed with him for 700K. strelnieks was near panathinaikos for 900K and csska signed him for 1.25. im sure that ayon gets a lot of money too. the panathinaikos contracts are mentioned above with some changes from what i know about johnson not getting so much money (even heard that his contract is paid half by the team half by his agency company cause all our summer transfers were from the same company-octagon) and the rest. zenit's budget was official from the VTB league
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  19. #139
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    I am convinces that some greek players get more money (unofficially) than proclaimed.

  20. #140
    Senior Member Jazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DraxDomax View Post
    I think you can categorize Maccabi fans according to two great Maccabi teams:
    1. 2004/5 Pini Gerson's offensively brilliant team, where the official strategy was: "as long as our % scoring is higher than their % scoring", AKA "percentage defense" (Saras and Vujcic being clear defensive liabilities)
    2. 2010 Blatt's terror squad, where they would frustrate the opposition with impregnable defense (Pargo, Perkins, Eidson absolutely stopping every single play, James providing air superiority around the rim)

    I think the fans who liked Gerson's team are not people who would like Acy.
    I think the fans who likes Blatt's team (like me) are people who do like Acy.
    I thought this was a very interesting point.

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