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Thread: Euroleague Regular Season: Week 8

  1. #141
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Obradovic isn't obviously overrated. Nobody comes close to his success anyway so it's not a logical discussion.

    To me, the problem with Fener is believing the problems of last year was just injuries and continuing with the same system despite players not being the same. How?

    For example, our perimeter defense sucks for some years now. We could compensate with switch defense, thanks to versatile defense from Kalinic and Vesely, great help defense from Datome, rebound contribution from Dixon and others etc. Fast forward to last year and this year, Vesely is not the same after knee injury, Datome can't move as well on the court so he is a total liability on defense, Dixon is too old to play consistent defense and contribute to rebounds etc. So we cannot defend the perimeter still, but nowadays we can't also make the paint area a no fly zone. People with say "Yeah no Udoh" but just as important are no defense from Vesely and Datome, and our total lack of rebounds from everyone.

    On the offensive side, Sloukas tries to do what he does best but players look at each other as if they don't know what the sets are. Lauvergne does this eveytime for example. We can't use Williams as good as we can, he isn't just a spot up shooter. We force post ups from Kalinic, but he is far from his form 2 years ago. Dixon is on a decline, Datome is far from the shooter he is. Add to that losing Guduric who was extremely efficient and Melli who was very clever in both sides, it's no wonder everyone looks at De Colo and Sloukas to create something.

    All in all, I think it is now more clear it was a mistake not to go for a renovation project on the roster after last year. Obradovic trusted Datome, Vesely, etc. to be much better after last year. They aren't. I think this is why he is angry, mainly at himself.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
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  2. #142
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    Any coach that only agrees on managing teams with 30+ mill budgets not only is overrated but they know they're overrated.
    It's reallly funny when people try to deny it.

  3. #143
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    I personally don't get the tolerance towards grotesque Obradovic behaviour in those time outs. Humiliating Datome like that (yesterday and here in Tel-Aviv and whatever I missed), doesn't matter how bad he played, a grown man that has done something in his life, is NOT DONE. The guy is in a bad way and screaming at him like that time and again is abusive. Obra is clearly under a lot of pressure but such poor organizational psychology and organizational management, even from the best coach in history, cannot go without response in my opinion. I would sack him for this instantly. Not for the losses. Shame on you Obradovic

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Any coach that only agrees on managing teams with 30+ mill budgets not only is overrated but they know they're overrated.
    It's reallly funny when people try to deny it.
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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Any coach that only agrees on managing teams with 30+ mill budgets not only is overrated but they know they're overrated.
    It's reallly funny when people try to deny it.
    Success atract success. What do you want him to do? To go to the second division in Scotland and build up from there?
    It is like saying that the CEO of Microsoft is overrated since if he would have been a good manager, he would have take the position of the manager at local grocery store and build the business from there.

    Not mentioning that Obradovic (many years ago) was able to shine with smaller budgets as well.


    I could not believe that we actually have several posts about whether Obradovich is overrated because of maccabeo initial remark. Well done maccabeo.

  6. #146
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Any coach that only agrees on managing teams with 30+ mill budgets not only is overrated but they know they're overrated.
    It's reallly funny when people try to deny it.
    What is really funny is butthurt fans (years of abuse by Obradovic while he was at Pao and also demolished at the final while he was at Fener) like you trying to be smart and witty when everybody here knows if you are top of your profession and proved yourself in smaller places (Joventud), you get to choose from best companies, teams, budgets etc.

    For whatever it's worth, I also don't approve swearing at your players for whatever reason - not publicly, I mean. Locker room is a different story. That being said Zoc, Datome, and Melih are together for a couple of years now so who knows their relationship
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
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  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by maccabeo View Post
    i never never undertood if obradovic is a great or an overvaluated coach
    Both things are actually true.

    - He is a great coach who has proven time and time again that he can put together and manage winning teams. Won EL with 5 different teams. In that sense he is the most accomplished coach in European basketball.

    - He is also extremely overvalued and given credit for things he doesn't even do Outside of coaching Partizan 1 year to a EL title, the dude has never had a team that is not a Top 5 team in Europe on talent. His rosters were full of players that are legends of European basketball. People put so much into his antics, some magical property that he has, which is of course bullshit. That makes him an overvalued coach.

    PS.
    It's like talking about LeBron and last 10 years in the NBA. It is quite clear he is the best player in the world during that period. Nobody can deny that and his greatness. At the same time, the LeBron Bubble and things people assign are just bullshit. He is an exceptional player, with a proven track record. Yet, the gap between him and the second or third best player in the world was never that great. Same applies to Obradovic as a coach.

  8. #148
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    obradovic is the most successful coach in euroleague history.
    obradovic was the best coach in europe durin 1990-2010
    obradovic is still one of the best coaches in europe



    BUT
    obradovic is not the best coach nowadays in euroleague. he is stuck to his old styled basketball logic with screen after screen,pick n roll after pick n roll and thats boring and as it seems not successful anymore. efes destroyed fener last season playing mostly with 1on1 having larkin. csska won the title mostly using 1on1 with de colo,clyburn,chacho and higgins. basketball is evolving and the pace is way higher than before,scores way higher than before,the best offense wins the best defence etc. obradovic is still stuck on old fashioned basketball limited to 75 points. he is destined to fail cause apart from that he only has one top-tier player on his team (de colo) and williams (not suitable with obradovic coaching style). sloukas is an ok backup guard,datome used to be a great player but he declines more and more every year (plus he is not athletic or good defender and if he can shoot he becomes negative for his team),vesely has always been a joke of a player.

    obradovic always had anger management issues but never crossed the line so far. he looks like he has lost every control on his team and i think the end is close. i dont think he will get fired in season but summer 2020 i believe he will terminate his contract and either stop coaching or go to barcelona and keep on coaching unlimited budget teams
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  9. #149
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    Partially ,I agree he maybe isnt best coach nowaday and that is naturally .Isn`t naturally anyone coach would best on so long period . Deputable for him ,is it good deciision transfer to Fenerbahce ? Club who has some tradition,but not great in European measures ,also rashly investing money in club .In that circumstances ,need the time to overcome some mistakes from the past ,need the time to became Fenerahce in eyes for everyone club which is on the European top . That was problem,first two years of Obradovic`s epoch .

    After three consecutive finals ,they stucked .One of the biggest problem is lack of excellent player in Europe ,many players left Fenerbahce ,like both Bogdanovic,Udoh,Melli .That is difficult to compensate,simultaneously where Datome failed ,he had important role ,Kalinic failing last two years . So,Fenerbahce needs ,by my estimate 4 players to keep the level where they were before two years.Problem is where to find 4 players on high level in Europe,out Cska,Real or Barcelona ? For that reason,Zeljko is forced to sign some players who dont match in their vision,like Williams .Because,there are not players many players on high level who match Obradovic`s style .Their mistake is passive role on trasnfers ,he said he send list of players to Gherardini ,and Gherardini infrom him who come in Fenerbahce from their list .My opinion is team selection is more complex thing ,that require a lot attention and details .

  10. #150
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    successes doesnt say a coach is great. surely says of a great team as if u are a tennis player, if u win u are great and the more u win the more are great. titles in that case says everything. trapattoni won 7 italian championships but it was one of most mediocre coach ever in italy. when he coached cagliari he was fired in dicember. said that ,here nobody wrote obra is mediocre. he is a great defensive coach, nothing special offensively ,imo. he always coached one of two best teal of the league. as i m sure he wouldnt win title with alba, i'm sure trinchieri would win some titles coaching top club, but mainly , if u ask to any mental coach, his behaviour in bench is something far to get the best from his playes. that video doesnt suprise me. is totally absurd a coach talk like that with his guys

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by maccabeo View Post
    successes doesnt say a coach is great. surely says of a great team as if u are a tennis player, if u win u are great and the more u win the more are great. titles in that case says everything. trapattoni won 7 italian championships but it was one of most mediocre coach ever in italy. when he coached cagliari he was fired in dicember. said that ,here nobody wrote obra is mediocre. he is a great defensive coach, nothing special offensively ,imo. he always coached one of two best teal of the league. as i m sure he wouldnt win title with alba, i'm sure trinchieri would win some titles coaching top club, but mainly , if u ask to any mental coach, his behaviour in bench is something far to get the best from his playes. that video doesnt suprise me. is totally absurd a coach talk like that with his guys
    Agree with most of the things, but maybe Trap is a bad comparison. He coached Juve in the era of dominance and racked up those titles. Zeljko did it with 5 different squads. It's an entirely different matter. If so much success follows you everywhere, then yest it is about you.

  12. #152
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    Strategy for this season was wrong in some things. Now it's late to correct most of that because players are under contracts and market is limited, budget also.

    The only thing Obra should do in this moment(if possible) is to switch Dixon and Biberovic licences. Dixon in his age should play only EL and Biberovic needs games in BSL to get used in system.

    Kid has big potential but except some mid range shoots and good ball handling didn't show half of the real potential. He need games.

    We need fresh blood and we have it but we don't use it.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    Obradovic isn't obviously overrated. Nobody comes close to his success anyway so it's not a logical discussion.

    To me, the problem with Fener is believing the problems of last year was just injuries and continuing with the same system despite players not being the same. How?

    For example, our perimeter defense sucks for some years now. We could compensate with switch defense, thanks to versatile defense from Kalinic and Vesely, great help defense from Datome, rebound contribution from Dixon and others etc. Fast forward to last year and this year, Vesely is not the same after knee injury, Datome can't move as well on the court so he is a total liability on defense, Dixon is too old to play consistent defense and contribute to rebounds etc. So we cannot defend the perimeter still, but nowadays we can't also make the paint area a no fly zone. People with say "Yeah no Udoh" but just as important are no defense from Vesely and Datome, and our total lack of rebounds from everyone.

    On the offensive side, Sloukas tries to do what he does best but players look at each other as if they don't know what the sets are. Lauvergne does this eveytime for example. We can't use Williams as good as we can, he isn't just a spot up shooter. We force post ups from Kalinic, but he is far from his form 2 years ago. Dixon is on a decline, Datome is far from the shooter he is. Add to that losing Guduric who was extremely efficient and Melli who was very clever in both sides, it's no wonder everyone looks at De Colo and Sloukas to create something.

    All in all, I think it is now more clear it was a mistake not to go for a renovation project on the roster after last year. Obradovic trusted Datome, Vesely, etc. to be much better after last year. They aren't. I think this is why he is angry, mainly at himself.
    This is an excellent and rational analysis of Fener's issues right now. Feels like the departures of Guduric and Melli had been downplayed a bit on here.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Agree with most of the things, but maybe Trap is a bad comparison. He coached Juve in the era of dominance and racked up those titles. Zeljko did it with 5 different squads. It's an entirely different matter. If so much success follows you everywhere, then yest it is about you.
    How would you rate Pesic's coaching since he returned to Barca?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metec View Post
    Success atract success. What do you want him to do? To go to the second division in Scotland and build up from there?
    It is like saying that the CEO of Microsoft is overrated since if he would have been a good manager, he would have take the position of the manager at local grocery store and build the business from there.
    People who have done great in a company very often leave it to fund their own start-ups so you couldn't have picked a worst metaphor.
    And in Obradovic's case we have something different, he was 'the CEO of microsoft' but the minute they ran into trouble he resigned. Will he do the same thing now?
    Shows how much faith he has in his abilities.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    What is really funny is butthurt fans (years of abuse by Obradovic while he was at Pao and also demolished at the final while he was at Fener) like you trying to be smart and witty when everybody here knows if you are top of your profession and proved yourself in smaller places (Joventud), you get to choose from best companies, teams, budgets etc.

    For whatever it's worth, I also don't approve swearing at your players for whatever reason - not publicly, I mean. Locker room is a different story. That being said Zoc, Datome, and Melih are together for a couple of years now so who knows their relationship
    The guy at the top of his profession has had a top budget for the past 7 years and only won one title, played at home.
    No guy who's at the top of their profession needs to go back 3 decades for actual successes.

    Sorry but facts are facts.

  17. #157
    Senior Member Roy M's Avatar
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    Is it any possibility that some economic problems are influence Fener's form? Someone twitted last week that only De-Colo and Vesely have full salary so far
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  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by maccabeo View Post
    successes doesnt say a coach is great. surely says of a great team as if u are a tennis player, if u win u are great and the more u win the more are great. titles in that case says everything. trapattoni won 7 italian championships but it was one of most mediocre coach ever in italy. when he coached cagliari he was fired in dicember. said that ,here nobody wrote obra is mediocre. he is a great defensive coach, nothing special offensively ,imo. he always coached one of two best teal of the league. as i m sure he wouldnt win title with alba, i'm sure trinchieri would win some titles coaching top club, but mainly , if u ask to any mental coach, his behaviour in bench is something far to get the best from his playes. that video doesnt suprise me. is totally absurd a coach talk like that with his guys
    What mental coach ,are you serious ? Just mental coaches need basketball to became circus .Isnt true that he always leaded one of two best teams,because he was coach in Partizan in war circumstances,players and he were unapaid and this was youngest champion of Euroleague ever.Real Madrid 1995 wasnt top team,except old Sabonis and Arlauckas other werent anything special ,results of Real Madrid with other coaches confirm my -point . Panathinaikos 1999-00 alsa wasnt top team,except Bodiroga and Rebraca others are correct and anything more ,Kalaitzis,Gentile,Boudoris.2002 Panathinaikos against stronger Virtus,2009 Panathinaikos and Cska are on similar level ,again he won ,2011 with old team ,with left of Spanoulis,Pekovic, and Jasikevicius ,won Euroleague,with Diamantidis,Batiste,Fotsis ,Calathes and Nicholas,beside Barcelona,with Navarro,Michael,Lorbek,Rubio ,that is a little bit stronger team .9 won Euroleague`s derogate with stories like budget and relationship with players and mental coaches and what else ,doesnt deserves serious consideration.We could discuss about present lacks of Obradovic .

  19. #159
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
    Is it any possibility that some economic problems are influence Fener's form? Someone twitted last week that only De-Colo and Vesely have full salary so far
    There were definitely problems in payments last season, but as far as I know it is better now, or let's say no worse than other top Euroleague teams
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

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    There's alot of coaches who have teams that are very successful on one side on the ball and their teams struggle on the other side.....A great coach to me is someone who gets results at both ends of the floor....

    Fener last year 1st in fg% and 1st in 3pt %....They also gave up the least amount of points per game as well........You can't say that has nothing to do with the coach....

    They were last in field goal attempts last year and they're at the bottom again this year...So they don't play very quick under him.....Everyone has a different opinion on whether or not playing fast is the right thing to do or not.....

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