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Thread: Greek NT - 2019 and onwards

  1. #21
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    I think they can beat Turkey though.
    Let me say so. There is always a chance but without Giannis Greece is the underdog against Turkey but well see.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    Let me say so. There is always a chance but without Giannis Greece is the underdog against Turkey but well see.
    Well, come to think of it, I forgot Larkin is playing for Turkey so it is not as clear as I thought. But without him I would have bet on Greece. By the way, I also totally forgot about Koufos. Him together with Papagiannis, Printezis, Mitoglou should be good enough to withhold the storm.

    In any case, Turkey has its problems. In recent years, the development of Osman and Korkmaz have kept Turkey at a respectable level, but after the Olympics Erden and Illyasova are either history or at best will not have much to offer anymore. So it will come down to Osman, Korkmaz and Mahmutoglou. And who ever the Turkish federation can naturalize.
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  3. #23
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    Well, come to think of it, I forgot Larkin is playing for Turkey so it is not as clear as I thought. But without him I would have bet on Greece. By the way, I also totally forgot about Koufos. Him together with Papagiannis, Printezis, Mitoglou should be good enough to withhold the storm.
    I wouldnt be too sure about Koufos but yeah he isnt great but would definitely help. We will see about him. At the moment he resembles more a cheerleader than a player in Euroleague. Same can be said about Erden btw but it is also not sure if he plays in the qualifiers what is not sure.

    We have a 21 year old NBA first round draft potential player Yurtseven, a real 7 footer with offensive strength. Some turks doubt that hell come because he was last time playing for turkey 3 years ago. In addition to that there are plenty of turkish player who stepped up this season on Eurocup level who can give decent contribution from the bench.

    There is no need to worry about the turkish bb. Ilyasova will retire at last after this qualifiers or after Eurobasket 2021 but there are plenty guys who come after. You will hear the names Alperen Sengün, Adem Bona and Tibet Görener. Turkey is doing much better youth work than Greece but they need to prove themselves first of course.

    So Turkey is by far not only Osman, Korkmaz and Mahmutoglu. Larkin will be a big help without a doubt though.

    For Greece i think the development of Kalaitzakis ( Panagiotis was the good one if i am not mistaken) and Nikos Rogkavopoulos is crucial. I have been following all youth tournaments for years now and the Problem of finding bigs maintains. There are some solid guard prospects though. Just Mantoukas has good power forward material. Not very explosive or fast but solid fundamentals. Anyway lets see how things will be in the future.
    Last edited by Toruko; 02-09-2020 at 04:40 PM.

  4. #24
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    The players you mentioned are all question marks. They have proven nothing yet on a top level. Besides, this process takes time. You are probably talking about 2024-28. Osman and Korkmaz are a certainty. And Illyasova is a huge loss. So he will be a big miss. Also, Mahmutoglu doesn't reallly deserve to be on that list. Basically, Osman, Korkmaz and Larkin(?) are going to be the Turkish NT after this Olympic cycle.

    Same is true for the Greek players you have mentioned. They may need two Olympic cycles to become a factor for Greece. That is, IF they will become a factor. In all, if we go with what we have right now, Turkey does not look very promising for the next Olympic cycle. Many countries have talent in this basketball age. You need 9-10 solid players out of which 5-6 elite players nowadays to compete for medals. Turkey is going to be an orbiter in the immediate future. Greece will largely depend on who shows up.

    Also, youth programs should be taken with a grain of salt. I.e. one of Turkey's gold generations brought forth Osman, while the same generation Greece had a mediocre team and brought forth Giannis and Papapetrou.
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    The players you mentioned are all question marks. They have proven nothing yet on a top level. Besides, this process takes time. You are probably talking about 2024-28. Osman and Korkmaz are a certainty. And Illyasova is a huge loss. So he will be a big miss. Also, Mahmutoglu doesn't reallly deserve to be on that list. Basically, Osman, Korkmaz and Larkin(?) are going to be the Turkish NT after this Olympic cycle.
    Absolutely correct. And you are also right with the time of expectations. The first show up will be 2023 and there is of course much hope within it but there is also a reason of hope because there are a bunch of players who show the talent and the development. I think thats the main difference between both countries. Larkin/Wilbekin, Korkmaz, Osman and Ilyasova are enough for now to compete. Most of the teams are being carried by 3 main guys. The others just have to have certain responsibilities in their clubs more is not needed.

    Same is true for the Greek players you have mentioned. They may need two Olympic cycles to become a factor for Greece. That is, IF they will become a factor. In all, if we go with what we have right now, Turkey does not look very promising for the next Olympic cycle. Many countries have talent in this basketball age. You need 9-10 solid players out of which 5-6 elite players nowadays to compete for medals. Turkey is going to be an orbiter in the immediate future. Greece will largely depend on who shows up.
    Well Olympic medals are for now not a goal. There are 3 or 4 high class national teams in Europe with Serbia, France, (still Spain). The rest is carried by 2 - 3 players and have deficiencies, mostly in big rotations. The goal for the next years will be establish yourself among the best 6 European teams, raise as many prospects as you can in the drought in European basketball and aim to win Eurobasket after 2021.

    Also, youth programs should be taken with a grain of salt. I.e. one of Turkey's gold generations brought forth Osman, while the same generation Greece had a mediocre team and brought forth Giannis and Papapetrou.
    Developments are not static rather dynamic. The problem with the 95-97 generation was the money that lured young prospects to sit on the benches in big clubs. Every single club had insane budgets in Turkey. The consequences were that many of the good guys didnt develop well. The situation now is totally different. The federation, the players and the clubs learned from these mistakes. Many upper teams like Karsiyaka (less), Tofas or Bandirma are working successfully with young turks. Making the jumps to top level Euroleague teams like Fenerbahce or Efes remains difficult though. They need to aim after roles in smaller Euroleague teams. Nevertheless Turkey brought up two players to the nba with a solid role Korkmaz and Osman.

    Greece will have a certain level due to its defensive philosophy but after the time of Printezis, Calathes and Bourousis your level of competitiveness will only depend on Giannis show up (stand now). The lack of Scorers/Shooters and the bigs needs to be solved and the problem of the bigs will remain for the next time for sure.

    Turkey always raised good bigs and if Ömer Asik didnt have this desease and Kanter not these political issues Turkey would already be a very tough team. This makes me optimistic for the future

  6. #26
    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
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    Greece will have a certain level due to its defensive philosophy but after the time of Printezis, Calathes and Bourousis your level of competitiveness will only depend on Giannis show up (stand now). The lack of Scorers/Shooters and the bigs needs to be solved and the problem of the bigs will remain for the next time for sure.
    Let's disregard the above players as they will not be part of the team after the Olympics (Calathes is not sure about that though). For the next Olympic cycle I can see the following guard line up: Sloukas, Dorsey, Pappas, Larentzakis (perhaps Koniaris can make develop some more). Greece has known better back courts, but those players seem to me quite decent. Then we have Papanikolaou and Papapetrou at SF. I would say this position is solid. At PF Giannis speaks for itself, and Mitoglu can be a very decent player two years from now if his development continues. Finally, you have Papagiannis in the paint. The kid is only 22, so has room to develop as well. Now, this is not a hypothesis, but merely an extrapolation of their current form given their age. These players participation and development seem quite certain to me. I count 7 players who get considerable minutes and can perform in the Euroleague, one EL player (Koniaris) who gets some crap minutes, a decent ACB player (Larentzakis) and an NBA MVP. Again, I like to point out that this is the case at this point of time. So we have something tangible to work and speculate on.

    Looking at this rooster I would agree with you that Giannis is an essential player and can lift this teams level considerably. Now, if Giannis does not participate, then Greece will have a problem in the paint as they will be too thin. In this case Greece will largely depend on players whose performance and participation is hypothetical at this point. Here I am talking about the development of players such as Kostas Antetokoumpo and the participation of Koufos. There is also Thanassis who can help. Other than that there are actually no other visible options at this point. The rest is too speculative to even mention.

    Well Olympic medals are for now not a goal. There are 3 or 4 high class national teams in Europe with Serbia, France, (still Spain). The rest is carried by 2 - 3 players and have deficiencies, mostly in big rotations. The goal for the next years will be establish yourself among the best 6 European teams, raise as many prospects as you can in the drought in European basketball and aim to win Eurobasket after 2021.
    Most have two or three star players, but their role players are also quite decent. Turkey's development in centers is too hypothetical. So given Illyasova's and Erden's reitrement and the lack of performance of Turkish players in the EL, I would say that Turkey seems to be stagnating or declining. Sure they can be 6th in Europe, but also 10th.

    One more thing about the youth development. I think Turkey threw a lot of money in these programs, so they obtained good results with players who were not necessarily meant to be stars. Organisational factors (deep roosters, good training, sufficient funds) helped these young kids at that level, but they could never translate this succes into maturity as players from other countries were better, but were overseen by their federations who didn't have the funds to help them at a young age.
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  7. #27
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    Greece has known better back courts, but those players seem to me quite decent.
    The only two guards that could be called decent are Dorsey and Sloukas. I can count you 3-4 guards from Turkey that are better performing than Larentzakis now and who are much younger. The main difference will be the utilizing of the whole team. Just calathes pass quality makes sure that the whole team works. Neither the guards, nor the Forwards can create for themselves in Greece (except Sloukas, Dorsey and Papapetrou to a certain degree. Calathes loss will have a bigger impact on Greece than Ilyasova for Turkey.

    Then we have Papanikolaou and Papapetrou at SF. I would say this position is solid.
    Well what should be called Korkmaz and Osman then? Superstars? To be serious Papapetrou is the only Forward that i will take seriously in the future. Papanikolaou is someone that cant put the ball into the basket. He is maybe the worst Small forward of the league. Playing with Rogkavopoulos or Kalaitzakis would make more sense to me than Papanikolaou. He is just a talentless player... mediocre at best. The other problem is you just have these 2 forwards.

    At PF Giannis speaks for itself, and Mitoglu can be a very decent player two years from now if his development continues
    Giannis is Giannis thats right but the wc has shown that his use in international competitions are quite limited. He is always unstoppable in the open court and gives you rim protection but he has also tremendous weaknesses in the set offense. He has a horrible mid ranger, is a bad 3 point shooter and a horrible free throw shooter.

    About Mitoglu... I like his defense and his rebounding instinct but he is almost useless in the offense. Most of his points are from put backs and layups after rebounds. He has no mid range shot, very limited post game and a mediocre 3 point shot.

    Finally, you have Papagiannis in the paint. The kid is only 22, so has room to develop as well.
    This is really funny. Almost all turkish bench player are at that age and perform way better and Papagiannis body language, motor, agressiveness is everything else than promising. He is scoring 6-8 points right now thanks to Calathes. He is a bad rebounder, his defense is worse and brings in offense nothing than put backs or a hook shot.

    To show you some double standards about turkish player and greek player of yours.
    Guard position

    Larentzakis, team Murcia, age 26, points: 8,8, assists: 2,5, 3 point percentage 28%
    Kenan Sipahi: team Real Betis; age 24; points 7,7: assists 4, 3 point percentage 28%
    Berk Ugurlu: team TofasBursa, age 23, points 6,83, assists 6, 3 point percentage 34%
    Sehmus Hazer: team Bandirma: age 20, points 9, assists 2,5, 3 point percentage 38,1%

    referring to small forwards: lets put Furk and Cedi aside.

    Metecan Birsen: team Karsiyaka, age 24, points 10, rebounds 5, assists 2, 3 point percentage 31
    Okben Ulubay team FMP, age 23, points 9, assists 3, 3 point percentage 32
    Yigit Arlan team Galatasaray, age 23, points 7, assists 3, 3 point percentage 44%

    These guys are just from the golden generation and are much better performing than a Larentzakis. These are also the guys who where you said they need to prove themselves but Larentzakis was solid.

    These players participation and development seem quite certain to me. I count 7 players who get considerable minutes and can perform in the Euroleague, one EL player (Koniaris) who gets some crap minutes, a decent ACB player (Larentzakis) and an NBA MVP.
    I can count you 15 players in Eurocup / CL level plus turkish league who are integral part of their teams and 3 guys who are contributing in EL and i count 2 of them total trash. The only you can call as Euroleague player are Sloukas, Dorsey and and Papapetrou. Rest is on the same level like the guys that i mentioned above.

    I like to point out that this is the case at this point of time. So we have something tangible to work and speculate on.
    In that point i have more reason to have hope

    Looking at this rooster I would agree with you that Giannis is an essential player and can lift this teams level considerably. Now, if Giannis does not participate, then Greece will have a problem in the paint as they will be too thin. In this case Greece will largely depend on players whose performance and participation is hypothetical at this point. Here I am talking about the development of players such as Kostas Antetokoumpo and the participation of Koufos. There is also Thanassis who can help. Other than that there are actually no other visible options at this point. The rest is too speculative to even mention.
    I wouldnt plan with Koufos for the future. Thanasis i dont want to be respectless but he is not even worth mentioning, cant use his head, makes 4 fouls in 5 minutes and was before his cheerleader job with the bucks Eurocup level player at most. Kostas vanished with the Lakers but he is still young.

    Most have two or three star players, but their role players are also quite decent. Turkey's development in centers is too hypothetical.
    There is nothing hypothetical: Yurtseven is a first round draftee this season who averages 16 points and 10 rebounds in the ncaa

    Muhsin Yasar with Tofas contributes very well in Eurocup with 7 points

    Sertac Sanli performes with Efes in Euroleague 8 points in 12 minutes this season

    So given Illyasova's and Erden's reitrement and the lack of performance of Turkish players in the EL, I would say that Turkey seems to be stagnating or declining. Sure they can be 6th in Europe, but also 10th.
    Actually top 10 is not a declining or stagnation but ok. Your knowledge about the turkish bb is quite limited. In the last 5 years Turkey had 3 young centers in allstar 5s in European tournaments who will be a part of the turkish national team. There is not a single greej center until 2003 generation who had the slightest chance to make a jump to the pros let alone have an impact there.

    I remember for example Kadras or Voulgaropoulos from the U19 wc.

    One more thing about the youth development. I think Turkey threw a lot of money in these programs, so they obtained good results with players who were not necessarily meant to be stars. Organisational factors (deep roosters, good training, sufficient funds) helped these young kids at that level, but they could never translate this succes into maturity as players from other countries were better, but were overseen by their federations who didn't have the funds to help them at a young age.
    The only reason why the 95-97 generations had problems were they could not play much because 1. turkish clubs had too much money. 2 we had no occasions to let these kids play.

    The situation right now is they get even play time in their a teams with 16/17. For those who are not ready the federation built a youth league where they can play and develop and the results can be seen in the a teams.

    The situation of the greek players in their sub teams are much worse. I dont follow the greek league much but as far as i could see Karampelas havent got a single minute with Peristeri in the CL, same goes to Rogkavopoulos with AEK Athens and as far as I know Arsenopoulos uses his time in A2 as 2000 born.

    Thats also the reason why guys like Kalogiros and the Kalaitzakis bros went to Lithuania.

    So the fact of the matter is you have hardly 10 players for the future. No Center and no hope for a Center. The only possibility is to get Zach from Gala but then you have to neglect Dorsey.

    My prognosis for the future about greece is around 10-15 and Turkey 6-10 for the next 4 years.

  8. #28
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    Papanikolaou talentless but hey let's get wet about some guy who averages 6 and 3 in Eurocup or CL level and call him promising in the future..
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    Papanikolaou talentless but hey let's get wet about some guy who averages 6 and 3 in Eurocup or CL level and call him promising in the future..
    I can tell you the difference. Papanikolaou is 30 and the players i mentioned are 22-24 and if Larentzakis is solid they are superstar material. Xd

    BTW you have just these 2 the guys I mentioned are 3th 4th 5th option.

  10. #30
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    You're comparing an established EL player with random Eurocpt or CL guys, who don't even have spectacular stats to begin with. If you get a boner watching someone having 7 and 4 in this level that's okay although I'm sorry to break it for you but that's not a sign for a promising career in Euroleague as you may think.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    You're comparing an established EL player with random Eurocpt or CL guys, who don't even have spectacular stats to begin with. If you get a boner watching someone having 7 and 4 in this level that's okay although I'm sorry to break it for you but that's not a sign for a promising career in Euroleague as you may think.
    A Euroleague player with spectacular stats is already a good role player in Euroleague. Incidently, many big teams play with CL or Eurocup player. Look at Milosavljevic or Bircevic in Serbia, Maciulis in AEK Athens and so on. The roles in the turkish national team are clear. They just need to fill their roles and they can do more than this.

    About making the jump to Euroleague... Some will and some not its also not very important since many many good guys come after. The problem with Papanikolaou was his adventure in the NBA. He was a good guy. After his return to Europe he had found himself a bit and got very bad again. Making 8 points in a not playoff making team means not much. This can be performed by any Eurocup upper player. He cant simply put the ball into the basket.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    The only two guards that could be called decent are Dorsey and Sloukas. I can count you 3-4 guards from Turkey that are better performing than Larentzakis now and who are much younger. The main difference will be the utilizing of the whole team. Just calathes pass quality makes sure that the whole team works. Neither the guards, nor the Forwards can create for themselves in Greece (except Sloukas, Dorsey and Papapetrou to a certain degree. Calathes loss will have a bigger impact on Greece than Ilyasova for Turkey.
    mate, don't misunderstand me but can you please stop hijacking all the threads by turning them around Turkish prospects? if they're any good, we will see them soon, writing novels about them in irrelevant threads does not help. If you like to talk about Greek prospects, great, but it will be a lot more meaningful if you stick to Greeks, without comparing them to ours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    mate, don't misunderstand me but can you please stop hijacking all the threads by turning them around Turkish prospects? if they're any good, we will see them soon, writing novels about them in irrelevant threads does not help. If you like to talk about Greek prospects, great, but it will be a lot more meaningful if you stick to Greeks, without comparing them to ours.
    Well we were talking about the possible matchup in the Qualifiers and i havent started the discussion but ok do as you like.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    A Euroleague player with spectacular stats is already a good role player in Euroleague. Incidently, many big teams play with CL or Eurocup player. Look at Milosavljevic or Bircevic in Serbia, Maciulis in AEK Athens and so on. The roles in the turkish national team are clear. They just need to fill their roles and they can do more than this.

    About making the jump to Euroleague... Some will and some not its also not very important since many many good guys come after. The problem with Papanikolaou was his adventure in the NBA. He was a good guy. After his return to Europe he had found himself a bit and got very bad again. Making 8 points in a not playoff making team means not much. This can be performed by any Eurocup upper player. He cant simply put the ball into the basket.
    I insist we take things at face value. Papagiannis (22), Mitoglou (22), Dorsey (23), Papapetrou (25), Pappas (29), Sloukas (30), Papanikolaou (29) are key players, getting minutes for EL teams with heavy burdens in order to win. Giannis (25) is already the best player in the world.

    Calathes is going to be a huge loss, but at least Dorsey can shoot the lights out. The game has changed. Crazy teams like New Zealand were shooting like headless chickens and were a serous threat. Perhaps Greece can use some of that philosophy. With Giannis on the team, all Greece needs is shooters. Pitino already said that he may select shooters at the expense of more talented players.

    As for your comparisons. If you make an ensemble of mediocre Eurocup and TBL players and give them important roles in a EL team, they will be squashed as they will lower the level of the team.
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    I insist we take things at face value. Papagiannis (22), Mitoglou (22), Dorsey (23), Papapetrou (25), Pappas (29), Sloukas (30), Papanikolaou (29) are key players, getting minutes for EL teams with heavy burdens in order to win.
    Yeah but they are not very successful with it. I am not very impressed by those names tbh.

    Giannis (25) is already the best player in the world.
    Well his strength suits the nba well but WC 19 was not very successful and this claim is quite controversial. For me there are some other names but he is undoubtfully among the top 10. For me its Kawhi Leonard right now.

    With Giannis on the team, all Greece needs is shooters.
    Absolutely correct! and thats your problem. You dont have those shooters. There is literally no consistent shooter in greek nt. Sure, some are not bad but still most of them are very streaky. I am not allowed to make comparisons. Big boss forbade it but if i think of consistent shooter then i think of Serbia, Italy or Turkey. Thats a weakness of greek basketball. Dorsey is the only guy who is worth mentioning.

    As for your comparisons. If you make an ensemble of mediocre Eurocup and TBL players and give them important roles in a EL team, they will be squashed as they will lower the level of the team.
    There is no need for this. No team beside USA or restricted Canada has 10 stars on its team. A team out of Eurocup players might have difficulties in the Euroleague but 5 stars and 7 eurocup teams can be a very solid team

  16. #36
    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    A team out of Eurocup players might have difficulties in the Euroleague but 5 stars and 7 eurocup teams can be a very solid team
    It's not enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    It's not enough.
    Well see soon enough.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    Well see soon enough.
    But that's just my point. We already have seen in many previous tournaments. A few NBA players is not enough. Sure on any given day they can beat perhaps anyone. But that's exceptional. Perhaps Turkey can create good form, as they did some tournaments and shine. But in general, less than a handful of stars and some scrubs, is not enough. Loosing Illyasova and Erdern, is therefore going to be a shock. As especially Illyasova is one of the three pillars of Turkey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    But that's just my point. We already have seen in many previous tournaments. A few NBA players is not enough. Sure on any given day they can beat perhaps anyone. But that's exceptional. Perhaps Turkey can create good form, as they did some tournaments and shine. But in general, less than a handful of stars and some scrubs, is not enough. Loosing Illyasova and Erdern, is therefore going to be a shock. As especially Illyasova is one of the three pillars of Turkey.
    You really dont understand it. Again, Ilyasova wont quit the nt this season and i am sure he will be with the team in 2021.

    The turkish nt technically defeated the US team in 2 OT with the injuries of Wilbekin and Erden. Again the czechs they lost because of 2 OTs against USA and an injured Ilyasova.

    For the qualifiers there will be an Older Korkmaz who is a legit NBA player now and an older Osman and Ilyasova is Ilyasova. In addition to that Shane Larkin, the best player by far in Europe will be on the roster. In addition to that the scrubs get better every season. In general the team will be better and better each year.

    For the losses of Erden and Ilyasova. There are plenty guys who will take over in two years. Yurtseven even though he wont participate this year will be a NBA Center in the future, Adem Bona and Alperen Sengün will be with the team in two years. The first one is considered already to be an NBA draftee. There are at least 3 guys in each generation who proves to be a high level prospect. I can assure you that the next years the turkish nt is going to be stronger.

    The difference between Turkish and Greek bb is Turkey produces enough prospects and Greece doesnt especially in terms of bigs. I have been a follower of youth bb and worked with prospects a certain time. I know what i am talking about. The loss of Calathes will be far more devastating than the loss of the power forward like Ilyasova.

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