2020 Lithuanian NT: in a chase of Olympic dream

[Toruko]

as always joy to watch video of Kazlauskas minds about basketball.

reading your comment and seeing video i thought to myself did we watch same video ? You hear one thing you like and tottaly miss the all other points coach made.He talked about your beloved changing basketball topic for 30s other 8minutes he summarized whats wrong right now with our NT .He said Sabonis,Valanciunas that is head and shoulders better level wise,but if they wont have high quality playmakers they wont be used to max and that game become way more guard orientated in last 5 years.

Teams with best guards wins medals thats was showed in recent tournaments.Nothing to argue here.If Czech with uleb material players went very far because had world class PG Satoransky.

We can dream about Marciulionis and Jasikevicius world calibre guards all we want,but if our best backourt players is Lekavicius and Grigonis is at best solid in those main events.What NT coach can do? All elite teams Spain,Australia,France,Serbia has better guards and even teams like Greece,Argentina,Slovenia similiar story.If we play same way as they we gonna lose as we did in all those recent endings, because they have better,higher quality playmakers in backourt that will decide 1 vs 1.

We are behind in tallent,so in other to win we have to find ways do things a little bit diffrently,suprise them,make them do adjustments.But not copy them with just less tallent ,that will not work.

Kazlauskas said well we dont have personalities,leaders thats the main problem.Our NT trying to do everything on team efforts. When we will have atleast one guard that can win game in last 2min like Mills,Fournier,Campazzo, Bogdanovichs,Rubios doing + our teams togetherness will win medals for sure.But such tallents isnt walking on every lithuanian street.

Its easy to change playing style when we dont have need level leaders in those positions.He said well about Jokubaitis,is nice to see him doing big steps forward,but all we talking now is his future possibilities,but who will lead team now ?

Absolutely with your comment but I want to add something. Nowadays its not even enough to have a solid guard. You need at least one more guy in the forward position who is able to put the ball on the floor and pass. Thats the reason why Greece for example started 2017 and 2019 with two guards Calathes and Sloukas. Its really old fashioned to start with 2 Bigs as well. Alhough Sabonis passing skills are very helpful at least to let him play together with Jonas.

[madmax]

Absolutely with your comment but I want to add something. Nowadays its not even enough to have a solid guard. You need at least one more guy in the forward position who is able to put the ball on the floor and pass. Thats the reason why Greece for example started 2017 and 2019 with two guards Calathes and Sloukas. Its really old fashioned to start with 2 Bigs as well. Alhough Sabonis passing skills are very helpful at least to let him play together with Jonas.

exactly.
That's why we badly need a guy llike Sedekerskis to finally get it all together and break through on the highest level - he's got the talent and physical tools to do it, just needs some mental toughness and self-confidence

[Straight forward]

exactly.
That's why we badly need a guy llike Sedekerskis to finally get it all together and break through on the highest level - he's got the talent and physical tools to do it, just needs some mental toughness and self-confidence

Sedekerskis is not a ball handling SF. He's not even SF, he's a combo forward and I think will spend more time at 4 with contemporary ball game. "He is more of a catch-and-drive and catch-and-shoot type of player, an aggressive straight-line slasher and active cutter, showing long strides and good leaping ability." He's not the player who likes to handle to ball for any longer stretch of possession. He will be a great hard working CF, sure (injuries aside), but not a ball handler. A good passer though, here I'm with you.

Absolutely with your comment but I want to add something. Nowadays its not even enough to have a solid guard. You need at least one more guy in the forward position who is able to put the ball on the floor and pass. Thats the reason why Greece for example started 2017 and 2019 with two guards Calathes and Sloukas. Its really old fashioned to start with 2 Bigs as well. Alhough Sabonis passing skills are very helpful at least to let him play together with Jonas.

That's a good point. I always said we need some-one who can put the ball on the flour at SF. We never had one since Siska's retirement, even Stombergas could do that much more than any current SF. It's easy to see that Brrazdeikis has the best chance to fill role. Also I would express high need of stretch 4. Just stretch the damn floor, make room for guards drives and p'n'r action, have shooters around them and a guy to go in a crunch time and you're medaliing (it goes without saying that tough and agile D is a must today)

Shaw, I'm glad that you starting to look at things realistically. After WC you still were talking about mysterious powers of JV, how he roared on the floor like a lion, scared the shit out of Gobert and how he will lead NT to medal table in upcoming tournaments. Now you understand that this narrative is not very realistic, that's like to put the wagon in front of the horse and to expect success. Kazlauskas almost unwillingly mentioned JV and Sabonis, you can feel from his main argument, we simply lack guys who can lead NT to medals now. He didn't even mentioned that with that SHIFT, when the perimeter guys dominate, JV is in huuugeee trouble at defensive end. You also can feel that he's tired of all these prospects talking, he saw too many failures already. And indeed it looked nearly depressive in 2017. Now this lack of real studs still hurts, but at least Lekavicius and Grigonis became solid players and Grigonis still has a room to become something even bigger. That's a bit of relief, but the tension and irritation is still here. I understand Kazlauskas, enough to brag about Jokubaitis and others, when they will start doing things, we will brag. It's pretty crazy, but I started the thread "Lithuanian talents" in 2008, when J. Vainauskas and others started to talk that we are missing personalities in out BB. With the decline of Saras and Siska we left naked. We got twenty three years old Kleiza as upcoming elite players, but that's all. In perimeter we never ever developed an elite player in 12 years now. None of Kalnietis and Seibutis ever were elite, despite some overachievements in NT. Now we only have Grigonis scratching the surface of borderline elite EL player's status. I personally have enormous belief in A. Marciulionis and treat him as the most complete PG prospect we ever had and off course Jokubaitis, who I think will never be as good as Saras, but he realistically can aim very high in EL, but at the moment they are only projects, and I understand that Kazlauskas at this age is too irritated to speculate on their possible achievements. We needs wins and now. Unfortunately, we will still need to wait some unless things will get together to our side like happened in some tournaments with Kazlauskas. At this point I think this brake is huge for Lithuania. Our you gems are growing, and no-one really precious is getting old. This is actually good, because we will be stronger, probably not yet enough to snatch an Olympic medal, but we my be scratching those lands already.

[LuDux]

is this your remark is to Javtokas ? Javtokas before 2002 and after accident.That was tottaly 2 diffrent persons character wise.That day when he almost lost his life made huge changes in him,he never was that bad ass on motorcycle from Siauliai anymore after 2002 accident.

You didn't include Jankunas in Nice Guys List so I had too go 15 years further

[madmax]

Sedekerskis is not a ball handling SF. He's not even SF, he's a combo forward and I think will spend more time at 4 with contemporary ball game. "He is more of a catch-and-drive and catch-and-shoot type of player, an aggressive straight-line slasher and active cutter, showing long strides and good leaping ability." He's not the player who likes to handle to ball for any longer stretch of possession. He will be a great hard working CF, sure (injuries aside), but not a ball handler. A good passer though, here I'm with you.

well, it's not like we have any other option to choose from at this point rather than that Tadas kid, now do we? I know you're very high on that Brazdeikis fellow, but I haven't seen him play a single quality FIBA game yet and it remains to be seen if he can even perform at the highest level... I've seen Sedekerskis play loads of times before though and I know how talented the guy is. And after these two there is no other viable option at the versatile forward position

[LuDux]

Absolutely with your comment but I want to add something. Nowadays its not even enough to have a solid guard. You need at least one more guy in the forward position who is able to put the ball on the floor and pass. Thats the reason why Greece for example started 2017 and 2019 with two guards Calathes and Sloukas. Its really old fashioned to start with 2 Bigs as well. Alhough Sabonis passing skills are very helpful at least to let him play together with Jonas.

Judging by your example you are using "forward position" to mean "SG and SF"/"swingman", no? In that case we have Grigonis

[LuDux]

well, it's not like we have any other option to choose from at this point rather than that Tadas kid, now do we? I know you're very high on that Brazdeikis fellow, but I haven't seen him play a single quality FIBA game yet and it remains to be seen if he can even perform at the highest level... I've seen Sedekerskis play loads of times before though and I know how talented the guy is. And after these two there is no other viable option at the versatile forward position

Jogela?

[Straight forward]

well, it's not like we have any other option to choose from at this point rather than that Tadas kid, now do we? I know you're very high on that Brazdeikis fellow, but I haven't seen him play a single quality FIBA game yet and it remains to be seen if he can even perform at the highest level... I've seen Sedekerskis play loads of times before though and I know how talented the guy is. And after these two there is no other viable option at the versatile forward position

Essentially I think Murauskas, Sedekerskis, Kulboka will be our best modern 4. Or I should simply call them normal contemporary 4. All three guys can be named as combo forwards, but I think now combo forwards becomes nominal PFs with the shift (bigs getting smaller), if you can follow my idea. That's with idea that Tubelis will be a center essentially, as well as Masiulis who I think lacks sharper skills and craft to fill 4 these days.
As for SF I can see Brazdeikis as a starter in a long run. Sirvydis actually can put the ball on the floor a little bit at SF as well, and he's terrific passer. Also athletic wing, and actually more of SF, Jogela will be a solid options. And off course, we can very well see Sederskis and Kulboka snatching some minutes at SF as well. To some up, I have zero worries about C and SF positions and very little worries about PF. Most likely we'll have various sort of interesting options.

More mysterious are PG and SG positions as always. Fingers crossed for Jokubaitis, Marciulionis, D.Giedraitis, Velicka, but the depth of pure high profile guard prospects is much poorer. Hopefully players like Sirvydis, Jogela and even Brazdeikis will step into SG position a little bit, but for us somehow is extremely difficult to develop a high level pure guard. It's like gold for us if any reaches pretty nice level.

[Shawshank]

STF

when we cant beat opponenenst on their game,because their guards is simply better, there is no point even going there untill we will have such tallent in backourt.

2012-2016 basketball was not that guard orientated teams was putting two bigs still for majority of time in fiba.But what warriors did since 2014 they changed basketball.

if we cant beat them on their game,we must find others ways and make game better suited for our players.If that means make slow,every fats break faul game we must adapt to that and play accordingly.If our guards cant beat 1 vs 1,we must find player that can and we have such in Valanciunas,Sabonis,Ulanovas that is old school,but if you use them correctly they can brake game open they showed that in nt and ulanovas in zalgiris.Attack opponenets weakneses like sharas teams does when dont have best guards on the floor.

playing valanciunas+sabonis failed against elite teams.But play one of them and let them dominate like valanciunas did against france in 4 querter its still working fine,but playing with one big with lots of space inside and let operate the one which plays better that day or simply has better matchup wise.

Sabonis couldnt do nothing against Gobert,Valanciunas can with his strenght.Jonas cant do nothing against Baynes,but Domantas can with his speed and so on.But enough putting them together.Max for 5-8min.

Fournier started dominate in first half and put france up by 15,valanciunas dominated IN 4 querter and put us back +3 that what nba seriuos players does,but then other france guard show up decolo and made tough shots in 4 querter.That the best example of world class guard+ sf that can put ball on the floor IN Fournier and Decolo.

our guards was not factors in neither 4querters in those 2 games.Lukas was playing well, but in 4 querter we didnt see him doing what mills and decolo did thats were diffrence is between our guards and elite guards in close endings its seen clearly.

we cant beat them where they are strong,but all teams has weak spots attack them there like sharas zalgiris is doing to even best euroleague clubs. To play like that we dont need to have best guards,more than enough in playing smart having solid guard like our nt has and hope that one of two head monster will be able to dominate inside.

when one of jonas/domantas is dominating we have a chance.If neither of them does that we dont have a shot beating somebody from elite teams with our guard average level.

[Toruko]

Judging by your example you are using "forward position" to mean "SG and SF"/"swingman", no? In that case we have Grigonis

For me everything is forward except center and guard position. Grigonis is a help for sure but just if you have a high class point guard. The best solution is when 2-3-4 can put and share the ball. These 3 and D guys are useless. I see a major problem in the point guard position. As long as you dont find a legit point guard there will be no semi final.

[Straight forward]

Shaw, this is jut not working. Trying to build your game in the post in contemporary basketball is a loss instantly. Even prime Duncan in FIBA 2004 was 12.9ppg kinda player, he couldn't establish dominance. Why? Because Liths thrown all their defensive force inside, help defence was constantly collapsing on him. The same happens with JV usually and the worst part is that he is horrible passer off double team. I watched that France game maybe three time, he made 2 mistakes in the first half while passing off double team. He will never be good at it. The problem with JV, he doesn't make others better. Sabonis does and that's huge plus for him. JV either establishes his dominance under the basket of not, but if not you won't get anything else from him. With Sabonis at 5 we have better chances, but his offensive game is a bit inconsistent in FIBA. In NBA he perfected p'n'r and p'n'p (midrange) game and there's enough space and freedom for him to dominate each night. In FIBA there's less space for p'n'r action, the game is more rigid and tougher, so he will never be a effective in FIBA as in the NBA.
Going with the post presence against the teams with the perimeter presence will always be bond to failure more or less. Because perimeter presence is much more efficient, effective and dominant. Jaikevicius got to final 4 with Zalgiris only that year when he had great guards a Micic, Pangos. Also our problem is that we don't have true game closers a of yet. To feed JV inside in crunch time is so dangerous and ineffective. The crafty ball handler should be closing the games, not a lanky center who needs weeks to make a decision and to read the defences. We never won anything with JV as the main guy. In 2013 it was all around team, where JV had very little role, in 2015 he was third best players in the knock out stage, after phenomenal Maciulis and great Kalnietis. Even in 2019 we already played differently than you project here. Grigonis and Lekavicius were attacking the rack aggressively off the p'n'r. Our main option often was those guys exactly. Those 2 still lacked a bit to close the games, but prime Grigonis may be strong enough to do that likely. What I liked about 2019 was exactly that we had 2 guards, not elite, but solid guards, who can actually create their own shot. The only way to get back on the podium is to continue to go the same path - to look for balance and gradually to increase our backcourt power. That dinosaur basketball that you suggesting is outdated and dead. This balanced basketball showed that we are only one step away from such teams as medaling France and Australia, so we can only hope both Lekavicus and Grigonis will grow even more in a year (specially Grigonis), and maybe with some luck and great chemistry we can sneak into the semis in OG, even if it's not very likely. Other than that, we just have to hope that Jokubaitis and Marciulionis will prevail and will step onto the big scene. If we will fill position 1 with an elite PG, we will start to legitimately contend every tournament, IMO.

[Straight forward]

So the camp starts tomorrow and we will see 2 games against Estonia and Latvia at the end of it, and I hope some fellow Liths would still have patient with me, but few couple critical notes the way it has been handled. BTW, Sirvydis, R.Gieraitis and G.Masiulis are out.

I believe that we have zero problems at C and SF positions. We do have issues at PG, SG, PF. And I believe that adequate NT staff should be solving these issues in the first place. So to me it doesn't make sense that 18yo Blazevic, who can play center and only center, is invited, while Velicka 20yo (PG), D. Giedraitis 20yo (SG) and A. Tubelis 18yo (PF/C) are excluded. OK, Velicka is raw and you already taking Jokubaitis. But assume Kalnietis gets injured or really washed out which is very possible at this age. To me, it's strange how 20yo upcoming PG stud (for our standards specially) is not interesting for Maskoliunas and Co. As for D.Giedraitis, one might say that he had too silent season and that's legitimate argument. But he's probably the only high profile true SG type of player after Grigonis in entire country. I love that Sirvydis was invited, but Dovydas is that rare breed that we are desperately lacking. So with a bit more insight and curiosity NT would probably be blessed to have an opportunity to try him out. And lastly, I don't understand how we need three centers in Gudaitis, Birutis, Blazevic (and actually G. Masiulis is also more of a center, and he was included) while this position is more than closed (Echodas at the moment is probably better than both Birutis and Blazevic). So 18yo Zalgiris' take Blazevic in, while much bigger PF/C star prospect 18yo Tubelis is out.

I'm sorry for nitpicking, but that kind of details will always be too obvious to me as long as I will expect true PRO job by our NT staff, the one who really takes the job seriously, tries to improve our weak or thin spots and sees the bigger picture.

[Shawshank]

how long you gonna telling lies about Valanciunas 2015 performance ? take enough 1/4 game against Italy where Lithuania barely won after overtime.Tell me did Lithuania would had any chance winning that crusial game without Valanciunas 26+15 performance ?

JV made all tournament 2015 team (it means top 5 players of entire tournament) and you telling stories that he was only 3rd ltu player really? Listen 2015 tournament was '3 Jonas' tournament thats a fact.

Mantas came 2015 tournament after surgery and not playing for 5 months any basketball.He stop his club season in february just to prepare in time for fights for Olympic ticket (big respect for that).But it was by far his worst tournament in Kazlauskas era for obviuos reasons he wasnt in his best shape.


You can talk all you want about modern basketball.But when we compare nba starting 5 level players Valanciunas,Sabonis and euroleague bench level players Grigonis,Lukas its huge diffrence level wise.

Can you understand that? not again writting million words about contemporary basketball once again.Sure if we would have world class guard we can built something around him,but when our NT dont have such what the point to dream playing like that?

Yes i rather gonna built my game on starting 5 nba level players .I never seen any euroleague bench player leaded team in winning any medal in those competions.Or euroleague elite player or nba level player leads his NT,but not some euroleague bench player will lead team to medal and ale will beat elite teams with nba players.

so when you rewatch 2019 France-Lithuania game who cares about 2querter mistake? Look who brought us back in the 4th querter in most important moments of the game !

Valanciunas kicked Gobert ass once again when it matered most,one of the best worlds defenders coudlnt do shit against him.Jonas is just bad matchup for him.JV put 20pts games multiple times in nba on Gobert and did it twice in both meetings in 2014 Bronze match and 2019 group game.

Valanciunas was leading NT scorer in 2014,2015,2017,2019 and you are talking about him as he some kind role player )

I saw Valanciunas stepping up against France and even against Australia grabbing rebound after rebound in 4 querters NT runs,i didnt see Sabonis doing that. Domantas maybe still at 23 was too raw and dont feel those main moments of the game i dont know. But there was no question who played better in those 2 crusial 4querters between our 2 stars when our NT teams destiny was decided in that tournament.

in 2019 Grigonis was solid,Lukas was very good in 2019.But when time came in must win game 4querter we all saw which player step up and put his will on the game and almost lead our NT to win...againts top 4 world team. So you can tell those stories about conteporally basketball all you want,i saw our nba player showing his level and taking over the game in last 10min against argubly best defender in the world in his direct matchup.

if you cant see that even after watching same game vs France 3rd time i wonder do Valanciunas need to go for 30+20 to get your attention or what? or doesnt matter what he does you still gonna tell this forum same stories about conteporally basketball 195th time ?

I see where modern basketball is going,but you will not fool me and convince me that our NT shouldnt built around 2 nba starting 5 players,but try to built against 2 levels worse guards.

[Straight forward]

Shawshank, are you drunk now? Sorry, mate, I'm not gonna analyse and respond to all this. Too messy text. I can only say that in the knock out stage of 2015 JV was third best player statistically, after Kalnietis and Maciulis. And no, there's no huge gap between current Grigonis and Valanciunas in FIBA. I actually almost certain that one year stronger and fully healthy Grigonis will be more impactful and specially more important in the crunch time player than Valanciunas in 2021. Don't count only JV. Look at Vucevic, Sabonis, Jokic, Gobert. All of them are not super impressive in FIBA and so much better in NBA. And please, mate, mind your quality of language. I know you're surely better than that, I assume you either writing drunk or tried to write all this in one minute. And, no, I don't treat JV as a role player. He's an elite traditional bruiser, elite. Nothing less. But today traditional bruisers do not lead NT or any other teams to titles or even medals.

Shaw, why you stuck with JV so much? Personally, I couldn't care less. He's a good player, but not the one that you should put into the role that you projecting for him. It would be nearly a miracle if JV would lead NT to title, or even medals. As I already told many times, he was only fifth in points generating in the knock out stage of 2019. Fifth, after Kalnietis, Lekavicius, Grigonis, Sabonis. That's a fact. You love it or hate it. We never won anything with JV as focal point and I don't think we will. It was Maciulis hero time in 2015. He single handedly took us on his shoulders against Georgia and was a 2 ways beast for us. I can only repeat that you hurting yourself and JV when you project some hero narratives around him, a la "roaring fighter who will scare Gobert and lead NT to medals next years"...If he will lead NT to medals, I will be the one who will take his hat off, but it's not realistic, unlikely. He will still give his 12/10pts or so like any other elite traditional bruiser these days, but that's all. We should stop this JV madness already.

[LuDux]

h

What you are doing is equivalent of jumping from skyscrapper and trying to negotiate with gravity. It just won't work. Optimal and best trajectory was determined, any deviation from it will be dealt with.