View Poll Results: Pick Two teams to advance

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  • Serbia (3-0)

    28 96.55%
  • Spain (3-0)

    19 65.52%
  • Italy (2-1)

    7 24.14%
  • Puerto Rico (2-1)

    1 3.45%
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Thread: [2nd round] Group J: SRB-SPA-ITA-PUR

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3.14159 View Post
    I think the problem is that you can't really utilize Jokic the same way as in Denver because you don't have the shooting, athleticism and guard play on this Serbia squad. I've always maintained that much of Jokic's success in the NBA is a product of his teammates and a great system by Malone which amplifies his gifted skillset.
    Having Jokic orchestrate from the top of the paint or outside the three point line is pointless imo because Bogdan is really the only guy you have to focus on off-ball (Bjelica some days).
    Asking Jokic to play down low and dominate is risky as it takes a toll on the body (and the no defensive 3 second rule in FIBA makes it easier to guard bigs in the paint) but I believe it is the way to go as it puts more pressure on the opposing D. But for that to be effective, guys other than Bogdan and Bjelica need to hit the open/partly-contested threes.

    Completely agree .

  2. #162
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    @CoachZ I was unable to see the game but I'm quite surprised to see your comments towards Bogdanovic. I see he had 26 points with good efficiency while closest guy had EIGHT points, Bogdan also had 10 rebounds and 6 assists. It's a great offensive performance.

    If I understand correctly, you complain about his shooting too many shots and making defensive mistakes. Bogdan I know seldom makes defensive mistakes and doesn't shy away from defensive duties. So he either changed completely as a player or he conserves energy in defense as Djordjevic plays him 35 minutes and forces almost all offense through him (number of shots)?

    As I said, we know that Bogdan is not a player like Fournier that is a living trebuchet with no intention to pass. He is also not a bad player in defense in FIBA level. It's on Djordjevic to not utilize Jokic correctly and burn Bogdan out in offense. You can't do everything in offense and also be the best defender in defense.
    Just watch the game I actually said he is the only guy that wants the ball to shoot, because Jovic, Micic and Guduric were hiding all game. Nothing wrong with his offense, except for a huge leash he is given by the coach, which can get him in trouble in some games when his shot is not falling. The whole issue is his defensive contribution when in the lineup. For example, in a span of like 2-3 minutes, Rubio hit back to back wide-open 3s and Llull did the same. On all 3 it was Bogdanovic guarding them and he was to be mild 3 meters away from them. It is a direct cause of that huge run of Spain. His defense wasn't much better the rest of the game.

    Don't misunderstand me, he can play much tougher and more disciplined defense than this, but in this game he was absolute horror against players that are smaller than him nevertheless.

    The key issue still remains, mismanaging Nikola Jokic and his role on this team. Like I said, he needs to play as a C and you have to surround him with mobility and shooting. So, Jovic/Micic, Bogdanovic, Guduric, Bjelica/Lucic and Jokic are the lineups that you can strive for. Playing guys like Raduljica and Milutinov next to him just clogs the paint and leaves us exposed in terms of ball movement, spacing and ability to shoot.

  3. #163
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3.14159 View Post
    I think the problem is that you can't really utilize Jokic the same way as in Denver because you don't have the shooting, athleticism and guard play on this Serbia squad. I've always maintained that much of Jokic's success in the NBA is a product of his teammates and a great system by Malone which amplifies his gifted skillset.
    Having Jokic orchestrate from the top of the paint or outside the three point line is pointless imo because Bogdan is really the only guy you have to focus on off-ball (Bjelica some days).
    Asking Jokic to play down low and dominate is risky as it takes a toll on the body (and the no defensive 3 second rule in FIBA makes it easier to guard bigs in the paint) but I believe it is the way to go as it puts more pressure on the opposing D. But for that to be effective, guys other than Bogdan and Bjelica need to hit the open/partly-contested threes.
    I agree on most of the points, except for the fact that there are no other shooting options for spacing outside Bogdan or maybe Bjelica. It's just that we are not using them and that is on the coach:

    - Micic 37.1% from 3pt last season in EL, he can also create for others and slash
    - Guduric 47.7% from 3pt last season in EL, he can also be a secondary creator, microwave shooter but needs volume and confidence
    - Lucic 41.8% from 3pt although a pure catch'n'shoot guy, SF/PF athlete
    - Bircevic 37.8% from 3pt, he is a cancer on defense and terrible rebounder but he can shoot.

    Again, these guys have to be involved and this is why smaller lineups are needed for Jokic to get room inside and space the floor. If you Play Jokic/Milutinov inside that's already 2 non-shooters, if Jovic is your PG then that's 3. So, having max 2 shooters on the floor, or even 1 if you count Lucic out if he plays at 3, is just a terrible option.

  4. #164
    Senior Member Federoy's Avatar
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    [size=3][/size

  5. #165
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    Serbia needs hunger instead of media telling them they won, before the championship even started. In that regard, that loss should work better than majority expected. It would come eventualy, luckily for them, it wasn't in the elimination stages.

    Serbia is easily the tallest team in this tournament, confident enough not having to check it anywhere. Even without Marjanović.
    And in the times, when it seems guard roles are getting bigger within the game and the whole world is getting "wide", Djordjević seeks for sort of a renesaince of "tall". Kind of within the mentality of coach Ivković which dreamed of, having a lineup of 5 guys 2 meter tall, that could repeatedly switch everything.

    12 players, 4C's and only 4 guards, I don't get it. 1 guard injured and 1 fouling out and that can be a ruined turnament for such a cheap reason...

    Spain played some great defensive game, took some risks that paid off. First time, for my taste, that Ricky Rubio played a good game for the national team. For most games I remember he was explicitly hurting the team, kind of didn't fit in, this time he showed a glimpse of what people predicted he would become, when he was 16.

    edit:
    The key issue still remains, mismanaging Nikola Jokic and his role on this team. Like I said, he needs to play as a C and you have to surround him with mobility and shooting. So, Jovic/Micic, Bogdanovic, Guduric, Bjelica/Lucic and Jokic are the lineups that you can strive for. Playing guys like Raduljica and Milutinov next to him just clogs the paint and leaves us exposed in terms of ball movement, spacing and ability to shoot.
    Sums it all perfectly!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    I agree on most of the points, except for the fact that there are no other shooting options for spacing outside Bogdan or maybe Bjelica. It's just that we are not using them and that is on the coach:

    - Micic 37.1% from 3pt last season in EL, he can also create for others and slash
    - Guduric 47.7% from 3pt last season in EL, he can also be a secondary creator, microwave shooter but needs volume and confidence
    - Lucic 41.8% from 3pt although a pure catch'n'shoot guy, SF/PF athlete
    - Bircevic 37.8% from 3pt, he is a cancer on defense and terrible rebounder but he can shoot.

    Again, these guys have to be involved and this is why smaller lineups are needed for Jokic to get room inside and space the floor. If you Play Jokic/Milutinov inside that's already 2 non-shooters, if Jovic is your PG then that's 3. So, having max 2 shooters on the floor, or even 1 if you count Lucic out if he plays at 3, is just a terrible option.
    Wow those numbers are impressive. Are they on a limited number of attempts? If not, they should just be just spacing and firing away.
    I don't watch much euroleague/domestic league these days so I'm not familiar with how the above mentioned guys play on their teams, but I assume they have more significant roles.
    It's also one thing to shoot a good percentage from 3, and another to be a good/great shooter that demands attention. Bogdan I know for sure is a great shooter that you have to respect. You sag off of him and he can hit you with 5+ threes.

    Ya playing big is a mistake. Maybe Djordjevic is just saving his "killer lineup" with Jokic at the 5, Bjelica at the 4, etc. for the knockout round?

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post

    Serbia is easily the tallest team in this tournament, confident enough not having to check it anywhere. Even without Marjanović.
    And in the times, when it seems guard roles are getting bigger within the game and the whole world is getting "wide", Djordjević seeks for sort of a renesaince of "tall". Kind of within the mentality of coach Ivković which dreamed of, having a lineup of 5 guys 2 meter tall, that could repeatedly switch everything.

    12 players, 4C's and only 4 guards, I don't get it. 1 guard injured and 1 fouling out and that can be a ruined turnament for such a cheap reason...
    I guess they had Teodosic, who could have helped if he was healthy and a couple years younger. I think Raduljica was clearly a terrible call any way you look at it. They can probably survive with Bjelica or Bircevic playing the 5 for a few minutes a game with FIBA rules. Might even work to their advantage. But what other guards could they have called up that are knock down shooters with experience?

  8. #168
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3.14159 View Post
    Wow those numbers are impressive. Are they on a limited number of attempts? If not, they should just be just spacing and firing away.
    I don't watch much euroleague/domestic league these days so I'm not familiar with how the above mentioned guys play on their teams, but I assume they have more significant roles.
    It's also one thing to shoot a good percentage from 3, and another to be a good/great shooter that demands attention. Bogdan I know for sure is a great shooter that you have to respect. You sag off of him and he can hit you with 5+ threes.

    Ya playing big is a mistake. Maybe Djordjevic is just saving his "killer lineup" with Jokic at the 5, Bjelica at the 4, etc. for the knockout round?
    They are all role players in this NT but in their clubs they are playing a more significant role. Micic is a go-to guy in Efes, Guduric is a secondary creator/now NBA bound etc. Bogdanovic has a great all-around skillset on offense, but also Micic and Guduric play well with ball in their hands. They just need to take more shots instead of just Bogdanovic.

    The Jokic-Bjelica lineup is being seen less and less, since Jokic play PF on 85% of the time... Which is just stupid...

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    They are all role players in this NT but in their clubs they are playing a more significant role. Micic is a go-to guy in Efes, Guduric is a secondary creator/now NBA bound etc. Bogdanovic has a great all-around skillset on offense, but also Micic and Guduric play well with ball in their hands. They just need to take more shots instead of just Bogdanovic.

    The Jokic-Bjelica lineup is being seen less and less, since Jokic play PF on 85% of the time... Which is just stupid...
    Guduric’s % is not realistic. It’s the cause of Obra’s system, where players can take only open 3s. Guduric, Datome, Nunnally...are all good shooters, but their stats in Fener are elite of the elite, not by coincidence. And even Bogdanovic had the best % in Fener. Obra’s main goal is to find a player with the easiest shot possible with as little improvisation possibly. Everything is automatic. Not exactly how Djordjevic is playing.

    http://overbasket.com/rsplayers.php?...=004004&cmp=EL

    Not a single wild shot in the whole season. His longest shot was 8.37 m. His longest made shot was 7.72. I don’t know how many shots were assisted, but my guess is over 80%. Guduric for sure can hit a 3, but he’s not as good shooters as numbers are suggesting. We will see that in Nba, where no plays will be designed for him.
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 09-09-2019 at 07:49 AM.
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  10. #170
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    Don't be too hard on your players. In a best-of-five series Serbia would easily win 3-2, or even 4-1. It was just a bad game. It's quite common when you are never challenged in group play, and there isn't much at stake.

  11. #171
    Senior Member Obina's Avatar
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    I did not expect too much from Guduric because he is still role player, but Micic is completely disappointed. With those two in this shape and Jokic on PF position we do not have chances against USA. If Spain was too fast for us, what we except against much stronger and faster USA? (ofc if we pass Argentina).

    And it's obvious how we miss one more serious guard (Teo, Nedovic) and one strong SF/PF (Kalinic, Milosavljevic).

    About Spain. I was sure that they were just pretending against Iran, PR and Italy. They are still strong team without player which are not EL caliber at worst - they don`t have trash like Bircevic, Simonovic, Raduljica.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    Don't be too hard on your players. In a best-of-five series Serbia would easily win 3-2, or even 4-1. It was just a bad game. It's quite common when you are never challenged in group play, and there isn't much at stake.
    We are in this constitution nothing better that Spain. It's not true for me. Congrats by the way. True difference should have been 20. Don't underestimate yourself. After USA Spain is now favourite for final to me. They will beet Aussies or France. Winning mentality and experience. And great role management. I have to admit that Spain I didn't believe that Scariolo did a fantastic job this summer until now.

    I really expect a lot of problems tomorrow vs Argentina. Djordjevic hasn't been coached out like yesterday for long time. But maybe he lived on talent of his players and it was simply not necessary. When we meet a team strong like us with a perfect gameplan this happens like Lithuania 2015.

    I agree with Obina by the way. Spain's role players played perfect game. Everyone contributed. Main point is that we wanted to avoid USA because we don't stand a chance against a team that plays like them. I was wondering from the begin why someone gives us a chance against them in Serbia and from international observers. It will be a blowout that will hurt if we play them.
    Last edited by Katastroika; 09-09-2019 at 07:59 AM.

  13. #173
    Senior Member Obina's Avatar
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    I read now that Micic`s mother passed away. This explain everything, I am sorry for him.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    I really expect a lot of problems tomorrow vs Argentina. Djordjevic hasn't been coached out like yesterday for long time. But maybe he lived on talent of his players and it was simply not necessary. When we meet a team strong like us with a perfect gameplan this happens like Lithuania 2015.
    I think this is the key. Spain is not the better team, but we have peaked earlier because we were challenged. We needed to come to terms with our own limitations and find a way to win games. Serbia could just coast on talent alone and is still working at 60-70% of their potential. If we meet again in the medal round I'm expecting a very different game and outcome. For sure your coach will adjust and stop fooling around with less than optimal lineups. Players have had a wake up call, as well, and they will be sharper going on.

  15. #175
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    Everyone near Zvezda team knew about mama of Micić and her problems. Tragedy. But unfortunately not unexpected. Another thing that could cost us a lot because of three guards are left. Family is most important. I would send Vasa to funeral.

  16. #176
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obina View Post
    I read now that Micic`s mother passed away. This explain everything, I am sorry for him.
    my deepest condolences to him.. something was off yesterday, yes. his now-trademark drive & dunk failed twice, and i was thinking Spanish defenders must have been expecting it. he was probably not fully focused.
    5 out 6 scientists say Russian roulette is safe.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Guduric’s % is not realistic. It’s the cause of Obra’s system, where players can take only open 3s. Guduric, Datome, Nunnally...are all good shooters, but their stats in Fener are elite of the elite, not by coincidence. And even Bogdanovic had the best % in Fener. Obra’s main goal is to find a player with the easiest shot possible with as little improvisation possibly. Everything is automatic. Not exactly how Djordjevic is playing.

    http://overbasket.com/rsplayers.php?...=004004&cmp=EL

    Not a single wild shot in the whole season. His longest shot was 8.37 m. His longest made shot was 7.72. I don’t know how many shots were assisted, but my guess is over 80%. Guduric for sure can hit a 3, but he’s not as good shooters as numbers are suggesting. We will see that in Nba, where no plays will be designed for him.
    You are right, old story about assisted shoots in Fener. Even Nunnally was good shooter looking just stats, but under pressure he was terrible.

    Guduric can make those triples but not like Bogdan, he needs assists.

  18. #178
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    I agree with Turkish posters. Marko can create out of the dribble but his numbers rose in Fenerbahce (out of whatever reason) significantly comparing to them in Zvezda. Anyway, he misses complete open shots in national team, too. He seems to have no self confidence, overpasses and extra passes a lot without any reason. One of the bigger disappointments to me. I'm satisfied with his defense and effort, I thought the shots will start to drop when it's most necessary but I lost this faith a little for this tournament. It's obvious that his NBA adventure will most likely fail even to us red-whites which hope the best for him.

    Vasa Micic will stay with the team even his mama died, he doesn't want to leave his teammates. Notable and gallant mental composure but I'm not sure if this is a good decision for both sides. I am deeply grateful that he is so attached to the jersey besides all.

    Argentina has a chance for a gigantic upset tomorrow. I hope I'm wrong.

  19. #179
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    We need to keep up with positive attitude, we know from past tournaments that we have risen for the occasion when it mattered. So no reason to doubt that we will prevail tomorrow, we are better and we have to prove it. Against USA is different though. Apart from willing factor, you need to show some smarts and play some sets that opponent can't see coming. There we have a lot to worry about as DJORDJEVIC has not shown it on neither of 2 times against USA nor against Slovenia (where we also effectively were underdogs).
    As for Vasa, huge respect, whatever his decision could have been. Although B92 says that he is certain for Argentina only, not beyond...

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    Winning mentality and experience. And great role management. I have to admit that Spain I didn't believe that Scariolo did a fantastic job this summer until now.
    .
    agreed.
    Scariolo looks as sharp as ever, he has matured in comparison to previous years.
    making good calls and plays so far.
    I was the first one to call him the weakest link in spanish team year after year.
    but maybe the fact that he had too many weapons earlier simply got to him and he couldn't find a perfect way to utilise all of it's team weapons.
    so far he has managed to do it here.
    the fact that Rubio matured, and this is basically his team now, also helps.
    but now that we have praised Scariolo he will probably fuck it up tomorrow
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

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