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Thread: Naturalized Players in 2019 WC

  1. #61
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valexander View Post
    Giannis case is easy, and not only because he is Greek. That's not debatable, but mostly because there are a hanful of nations that a talented 2nd generation immigrant has the best chances to get closer to that sport.

    Calathes case although is more blur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    to be fair, Greeks themselves did not see Giannis as a Greek until he showed he's hell of an athlete. There is hypocrisy here, until every single immigrant born and raised in Greece offered a Greek passport (as in the US). He is both Greek and Nigerian, and he should be 100% eligible to represent either country. He is not naturalized in either case.
    The real problem though is that the Greeks want it both ways. When U.S. born and raised Calathes become an excellent player, they decided he was Greek by "ancestry" since his adoptive parents were of Greek descent. Then it wasn't until Giannis blossomed as a star basketball player that they decided that the country of his birth, Greece, was the truly important detail and gave him citizenship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valexander View Post
    We already see national federations arround the world waiting like hittmans to run after 2nd or 3rd gen immigrants to secure their passport. See Mitrou-long case for example. There has to be more clear and strict restrictions, and i think fiba is doing that.

    But please no more JR holdens, that's a joke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    I personally have an issue with this too, as it's being exploited. Those 12 year-olds are not coming with their own means or their parents', they are collected/harvested by the scouts. Serge Ibaka, Mirotic, Ermal Kuqo, Adem Bona, and plenty of ex-Yugoslavian kids collected in Spain, Turkey, etc. To be clear, I have an issue with their eligibility to play in the host countries' NTs, not with the practice which may mutually benefit both sides.

    There are even worse cases, like Bo McCalebb's, Roll, or Randolph, who had never even played in their host counties.

    another thing with this is, the stimulation they are supposed to bring is questionable: how did N. Macedonian bball improve after Bo McCalebb? How did Russia do after Holden? How did our bball benefit from Dixon or Wilbekin?

    the only thing they did, at least in my eyes, was to stain these counties' successes. I will always attribute less credit to Russia & Slovenia for their EC title, and N. Macedonia for their semi-final (this of course is something no one cares about, just my own rant).
    I agree. I have problems with rich countries mining the underdeveloped world for talent simply to get future players for their national team programs.

    I have even more of a problem with players such as Holden, Roll, Randolph and McCalebb being handed passports as they step off the plane at the airport in countries they couldn't even find on the map.

    Last edited by Hepcat; 08-28-2019 at 05:32 PM.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    There are people in this forum that have challenged the notion that Giannis is Greek, due to the fact he is black and his parents were born in Nigeria. Despite the fact that he was born in Athens and that is the only country he has ever known. Since when does the color of your skin determines your nationality? Blacks, whites, asians, inuit or mixed, whatever genetic group a person belongs too, has little to do with his nationality, which stems from the geographical location, a country he was born in or adopted at a later stage.

    - There are people that would have a problem with seeing a black guy in their NT (some Lith forum members have talked about this in the past, that there are people like that in Lith, and I can attest to that from the Serbian side as well).
    It will be interesting to see what happens when an African-American who's played professionally in Lithuania for a number of years decides to settle down in Lithuania after he finishes his basketball career simply because he thinks that Lithuania offers a better environment to raise a family than it does back home in Los Angeles, e.g. no concerns about his kids being lured into gang culture, etc. What if his kids grow up speaking perfect Lithuanian and are cracker jack basketball players themselves? They should of course be classified as full Lithuanians, but will there be resistance from some quarters?

    Last edited by Hepcat; 08-27-2019 at 11:05 PM.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Valexander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hepcat View Post
    The real problem though is that the Greeks want it both ways. When U.S. born and raised Calathes become an excellent player, they decided he was Greek by "ancestry" since his adoptive parents were of Greek descent. Then it wasn't until Giannis blossomed as a star basketball player that they decided that the country of his birth, Greece, was the truly important detail and gave him citizenship.





    I agree. I have problems with rich countries mining the underdeveloped world for talent simply to get future players for their natural team programs.

    I have even more of a problem with players such as Holden, Roll, Randolph and McCalebb being handed passports as they step off the plane at the airport in countries they couldn't even find on the map.

    Greeks? Using that noun should define who? Greek people? Greek state? Greek faderation? or me?
    As you reffered to my comment, let me say that you split the same post in which i use Calathes example to introduce the second part in which you agree.
    As i already analyzed it depends on who do you represent. A nation, or the domestic basketball organization. Since it should have been the second i already answered in the reffered post.
    Who is Greek is irrelevant. Far away from a sport discussion. There are definisions of who is Greek, but in the end, give people the right of self-define.
    All that is an other subject from what is a JR holden's case. Still as i said, rules for both cases should be established.

    I wouldn't comment at all if you wasn't reffered to a Levenspiels comment, which i decided to overcome at first. The word Greeks is used again in the same general way followed by the word hypocricy. What are the rules followed in a state or EU, and what does a fascist minority which political party is on trial, is irrelevant to how Greek people treat their neighbours kids, and how aknowledge as Greeks in a school whether, their parents come from Ghana, Albania, or Syria

  4. #64
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valexander View Post
    Greeks? Using that noun should define who? Greek people? Greek state? Greek faderation? or me?
    To be absolutely specific I'm referring to fans of the Greek national basketball team.


  5. #65
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valexander View Post
    I wouldn't comment at all if you wasn't reffered to a Levenspiels comment, which i decided to overcome at first. The word Greeks is used again in the same general way followed by the word hypocricy. What are the rules followed in a state or EU, and what does a fascist minority which political party is on trial, is irrelevant to how Greek people treat their neighbours kids, and how aknowledge as Greeks in a school whether, their parents come from Ghana, Albania, or Syria
    You have a valid point, Valexander. When I used "Greeks" I meant the institutions dealing with and deciding on citizenship, which in theory should be guided by the opinions of the majority of the people, but certainly not all. My comment is of course unfair to those people who "treat their neighbours kids, and how aknowledge as Greeks in a school whether, their parents come from Ghana, Albania, or Syria".

    We suffer from the same hypocrisy in my country, possibly to a larger extent, and this of course excludes the people who treat the immigrants/minorities fairly.
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    Every nation and people has differing ideas on what constitutes their national & ethnic identity, which are two different but overlapping concepts. No-one is right or wrong and at the end of the day, national/ethnic identity is best defined by what a person or people say they are themselves.

    But I see some sharp contrasts in the way people identify with their state or nationality or ethnicity. I can speak of Serbian ethnicity/identity and say that compared to other nations it differs a lot in the way that it is not tied to the borders of Serbia, the nation state, the country.

    A lot of people outside of Serbia identify as ethnically Serbian, and that goes back to probably pre-history. There were Serbian people long before there was the nation state called Serbia. The bordering countries, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia & Macedonia have had this presence as long as the Serbian people have been known. Serbian history and people actually have an older presence outside of today's Serbia, mostly in Montenegro also through Kosovo & Macedonia.

    So with this in mind, it's annoying when as an ethnic Serb, other nationalities seem to often struggle to understand why I as an ethnic Serb from Bosnia, am not any form of 'Bosnian' in identity. Serbian people are more tied to their ethnicity then their state. Serbia itself has many other ethnicities (Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians) and they are not expected to be Serbian. It's actually more complicated then that but Americans for example are just from America and expect identity to be tied more to their state and passport. People of other nationalities almost get pissed off at times why I am not Bosnian. I don't think it's that hard to understand why not.

    And so back to basketball, the Serbian team is tied to representing the Serbian people as an ethnicity first, and the state and it's citizens second.
    Last edited by Tesla; 08-28-2019 at 07:52 AM.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Valexander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    You have a valid point, Valexander. When I used "Greeks" I meant the institutions dealing with and deciding on citizenship, which in theory should be guided by the opinions of the majority of the people, but certainly not all. My comment is of course unfair to those people who "treat their neighbours kids, and how aknowledge as Greeks in a school whether, their parents come from Ghana, Albania, or Syria".

    We suffer from the same hypocrisy in my country, possibly to a larger extent, and this of course excludes the people who treat the immigrants/minorities fairly.
    i was pretty sure of what you ment, because it was you, this is why i decided to overcome it in the beginning. Just a politically correct expression it's better when hundeds of people read.

  8. #68
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    a dummy question: How do the Puerto Rican nationality rules work? As far as I know they have the US passports only (is it true?).

    - How does FIBA check if a player is naturalized from the US (sounds weird) or is a rightful citizen?
    - is there anything holding a PR citizen back from playing for the US national team?
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  9. #69
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzissa View Post
    Blake Schilb is so smooth and seems like such a great guy. Surprised he has only played a total of three seasons in the Euroleague.
    His skillset and personality would translate even on the best teams in Europe.

    Dude just got his jersey retired by Elan Chalon, where he played four years. Read somewhere that he got Czech nationality through marriage, but can't find it now. Could anyone confirm it please?
    I just love these success stories from Americans coming to play basketball in Europe. Most guys come for the grind (meaning collecting paychecks), but a few really make the most out of it.
    Schilb played for 2 seasons in Turkey too, and I agree with you it's strange he's not in the EL, an underrated player.

    yes, he seems to be married to a Czech lady (one reference here). I don't really know the rules for Czechia, but I highly doubt he got the citizenship that way; typically, a marriage does not bring you citizenship in the EU (first-hand knowledge). I will go out on a limb and say Czechs needed him as a bball player, so he was granted the passport.

    I will disagree on praising the practice, but of course you're right some examples do go beyond paychecks and make serious contributions to their adopted counties.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member Dtown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    a dummy question: How do the Puerto Rican nationality rules work? As far as I know they have the US passports only (is it true?).

    - How does FIBA check if a player is naturalized from the US (sounds weird) or is a rightful citizen?
    - is there anything holding a PR citizen back from playing for the US national team?
    I'm actually note sure how this works with FIBA, I think you either have to have Puerto Rican citizenship or your parents have to have it (Grandparents?). But Puerto Ricans are US Citizens, they can come to the mainland and have full rights, including voting in elections and running for office. If a Puerto Rican born citizen comes to the US and is good enough to play on the national team there's nothing stopping them.

    This is quite similar to the US Virgin Islands (which has the same rules) where Tim Duncan was born and went on to play for Team USA.
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    Senior Member soulis79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    Schilb played for 2 seasons in Turkey too, and I agree with you it's strange he's not in the EL, an underrated player.

    yes, he seems to be married to a Czech lady (one reference here). I don't really know the rules for Czechia, but I highly doubt he got the citizenship that way; typically, a marriage does not bring you citizenship in the EU (first-hand knowledge). I will go out on a limb and say Czechs needed him as a bball player, so he was granted the passport.

    I will disagree on praising the practice, but of course you're right some examples do go beyond paychecks and make serious contributions to their adopted counties.
    This was the reason for the citizenship. Schilb wanted to play for national team, there is no doubt about that, he also participated in windows.

    I think that Czech Republic is better team without Vesely. Balvin fits better to FIBA Basketball, besides that Vesely's loyalty to national team is questionable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    a dummy question: How do the Puerto Rican nationality rules work? As far as I know they have the US passports only (is it true?).

    - How does FIBA check if a player is naturalized from the US (sounds weird) or is a rightful citizen?
    - is there anything holding a PR citizen back from playing for the US national team?
    FIBA Regulations:

    26. In order to represent a dependent territory in the Competitions of FIBA, a player must have
    the legal nationality of the main territory and additionally fall within one of the following
    categories:

    a. Have been born in the dependent territory; or

    b. Have:
    i. been born in the main territory of at least one parent who was born in the
    dependent territory; or

    ii. been born of parents both of whom were born in the dependent territory, regardless
    of the place of birth of the player; or

    iii. at least one grandparent born in the dependent territory, regardless of the place of
    birth of the player.

    27. A player who does not satisfy the provisions of article 3-26 but obtains the legal nationality of
    the main territory by way of naturalisation and can demonstrate permanent residency of the
    dependent territory for at least four (4) years is eligible to represent the dependent territory,
    on the same conditions as apply in 3-21.
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  13. #73
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    @Dtown, JGX. Thank you very much.
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  14. #74
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulis79 View Post
    This was the reason for the citizenship. Schilb wanted to play for national team, there is no doubt about that, he also participated in windows.
    I'm afraid, no. I briefly checked it, the marriage does not grant you citizenship [reference 1, reference 2]. it grants you residence only. there are other requirements such as having 5 years of permanent residence, probably language exam etc. to be able to apply for a Czech passport, no guarantee you will be granted one. So, Shilb was given the passport because he could help the Czech NT, not because of marriage. He fits better than other options because he played for Nymburk. married a Czech national, and he's committed to play for them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    I'm afraid, no. I briefly checked it, the marriage does not grant you citizenship [reference 1, reference 2]. it grants you residence only. there are other requirements such as having 5 years of permanent residence, probably language exam etc.
    On an offtopic note, this is the case in the vast majority of countries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    So, Shilb was given the passport because he could help the Czech NT, not because of marriage.
    I don't know about Czech but in Finland we have similar rules and sports has nothing to do with getting passport. It's extremely hard to get Finnish passport and there's lot of Americans after 20 years living here still fails to get it.

    You know, maybe Shilb is going to build his life in Czech and everything in life is lot of easier if you have passport. Especial if you have kids. Those payed Americans in such a shameful NT's like Turkey or Montenegro are real the problem.

  17. #77
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtyh View Post
    I don't know about Czech but in Finland we have similar rules and sports has nothing to do with getting passport. It's extremely hard to get Finnish passport and there's lot of Americans after 20 years living here still fails to get it.

    You know, maybe Shilb is going to build his life in Czech and everything in life is lot of easier if you have passport. Especial if you have kids. Those payed Americans in such a shameful NT's like Turkey or Montenegro are real the problem.
    I am being nit-picky here, but my entire point was that I don't see much difference in Schilb's case versus Dixon for example, who's been in Turkey for ages, much longer than Schilb was in CR... there are many US players with Turkish wives, would it be in anyway better if they played instead of Wilbekin? No. and that's my point.
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    Senior Member Buzissa's Avatar
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    Schilb is exactly the same case as Dixon or Wilbekin. For me, as long as the player has lived in the country and feels connected to the country, no problem. There is still the business side of it, of course, but acceptable imo.

    Totally different cases are the passports given to dudes that haven't ever been in the country. Some can't even point at the adopted country in a map.
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