Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 47

Thread: Spanish NT 2019

  1. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    Oh, man. Please let me save this up until we see them in real action. Can I?

    What I can tell you now is that young, unproven players will always seem a step down from known, proven veterans until they get their chance. Again, I'm not predicting easy wins for Spain. Just claiming that there's life after Pau, and we can still play a good, if different, brand of basketball and compete against anyone.
    Who are those gems to replace Pau and some other absolute studs as Navarro? That's not even a discussion. Even with closer comparisons, you will be missing players like Mirotic badly as well. Again, we are comparing absolute FIBA greatness with current Spain's roster. Somehow you take it nearly as an insult. Maybe I'm wrong and some real gems panning out, but who? Name them, or you expect to be surprised by your self? Lithuania has maybe the best basketball school in terms of a disciplined, coherence and self-sacrifice. But when elite players like Jasikevicius and Siskauskas retired or paused their careers, it wasn't the same. We still hasn't bounced back since that, we're at least a level below still. Spain without Pau won't be the same, unless you will name who's or some combination of a players steeping into his shoes. Other than that it's hopeful speculation.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The flick from the future...

  2. #22
    Senior Member Valexander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    190
    Country: Greece

    Default

    I think we are all in the same page.

    1 Obviously there is a step down since Gasol garbajosa Navarro Calderon era.
    2 Still a solid medal contender.

    No one underrated current Spain NT. The only comment amongst dozens that was an obvious underestimation was from darell the one who opened that, by saying Spain’s presence on semis is doubtful

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    541
    Country: Spain

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Who are those gems to replace Pau and some other absolute studs as Navarro? That's not even a discussion. Even with closer comparisons, you will be missing players like Mirotic badly as well. Again, we are comparing absolute FIBA greatness with current Spain's roster. Somehow you take it nearly as an insult. Maybe I'm wrong and some real gems panning out, but who? Name them, or you expect to be surprised by your self? Lithuania has maybe the best basketball school in terms of a disciplined, coherence and self-sacrifice. But when elite players like Jasikevicius and Siskauskas retired or paused their careers, it wasn't the same. We still hasn't bounced back since that, we're at least a level below still. Spain without Pau won't be the same, unless you will name who's or some combination of a players steeping into his shoes. Other than that it's hopeful speculation.
    You're overreacting. I don't take your words, or anyone else's, as an insult. And I agree that we will be missing Pau and the rest of the great, now retired, players. Again, I repeat myself: I'm not claiming we'll ever be as dominant as, say, 2011 Eurobasket. And no one is going to take Pau's place and become the saviour of our NT. What I expect is a different brand of basketball. A brand that may not have the same potential for greatness, but still a nice one. I had the first taste during these friendly games and I liked what I saw. You're of course entitled to hold a different opinion and attribute all hints of brilliance to the low level of competition.

    The good thing is we won't have to wait for long to see if these mediocre players are able to become a good orchestra. I'm not even shooting for medals. I'll be happy if they give proof of being able to play good basketball and come to any game with a fighting chance of winning against any other NT in the world.

  4. #24
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    You're overreacting. I don't take your words, or anyone else's, as an insult. And I agree that we will be missing Pau and the rest of the great, now retired, players. Again, I repeat myself: I'm not claiming we'll ever be as dominant as, say, 2011 Eurobasket. And no one is going to take Pau's place and become the saviour of our NT. What I expect is a different brand of basketball. A brand that may not have the same potential for greatness, but still a nice one. I had the first taste during these friendly games and I liked what I saw. You're of course entitled to hold a different opinion and attribute all hints of brilliance to the low level of competition.

    The good thing is we won't have to wait for long to see if these mediocre players are able to become a good orchestra. I'm not even shooting for medals. I'll be happy if they give proof of being able to play good basketball and come to any game with a fighting chance of winning against any other NT in the world.
    wise words indeed from a level headed fan
    Anyone who underestimates a cohesive experienced spanish squad may do it at their own peril -I personally think they have best PG in the tournament and that alone should make them extremely dangerous

  5. #25
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    4,486
    Country: Serbia

    Default

    Nobody should ever write Spain off. The age of some of the main players is an issue, but they are quite experienced with preserving their energy and they can hit another gear at a later stage. I think that they will run a lot of 2 PG sets, something that they did in the past as well. I also think this will better suit Llull if the plays, since he won't have as heavy a load.

    Rubio - Llull - Juancho - Claver - Gasol is defensively probably the best lineup outside of Team USA. That team could stiffle a lot of very talented squads. If they steer away from their normal uptempo style, which doesn't suit Marc Gasol at his age and try to play a more half-court based offense and lock it down defensively, I think they can be a medal team easy.

    Still, I have to say that since 2015-16, there is a significant drop in talent level.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Klaipeda
    Posts
    2,000
    Country: Lithuania

    Default

    Spain still got good players, at the end of the day they still have 4 current NBA players + 2 former NBA players it still counts for something. On that bracket side only Serbia have better players overall.Even this Spain are better than all those Italy,Argentina, Nigeria,Poland or what ever average teams are on that side.Because lucky draw and russian injuries opened the way.Spain can make semifinal just beating Italy in group and let say Argentina in 1/4 they surely capable of doing that.

    But do this Spain roster is top 4 in this tournament? I don't think so.Only Rubio and maybe Willy is on peak of his powers right now from all main Spanish players on this roster.

    But looking further after 2020 Olympics, Spain results will fall dramatically,but it's normal it's impossible to stay on such dominant level they were for 15 years, eventually not so great generation comes around and all NT except USA need to go through that.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 08-13-2019 at 11:51 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    541
    Country: Spain

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    wise words indeed from a level headed fan
    Anyone who underestimates a cohesive experienced spanish squad may do it at their own peril -I personally think they have best PG in the tournament and that alone should make them extremely dangerous
    Thanks. Just trying to keep it real.

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    541
    Country: Spain

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    But do this Spain roster is top 4 in this tournament? I don't think so.Only Rubio and maybe Willy is on peak of his powers right now from all main Spanish players on this roster.

    But looking further after 2020 Olympics, Spain results will fall dramatically,but it's normal it's impossible to stay on such dominant level they were for 15 years, eventually not so great generation comes around and all NT except USA need to go through that.
    Top-4? Likely not. But I'd like to think there's no team out of our reach if we play a good game. In almost all of the tournaments in this century, Spain has made it to the finals or only bowed out to one of the finalists, and putting up a good fight. I only remember 2014 as the exception. If we keep that trend I'll be quite happy.

    As for the Olympics, well, let's qualify first and then we can speculate about results. It's hard to know beforehand because of injuries, absences or the possibility of a down year is always there. But providing everyone is in good health and motivated by the chance of adding a new Olympic medal, I'm confident our best potential roster is better than this year's:

    Rubio/Rodríguez - Abrines/Llull - Juancho/Claver - Mirotic/Oriola - Marc/Willy. Just by adding a good shooter with size, an Euroleague-caliber backup PG and a top european PF we will boast a more balanced lineup. As long as Marc's body can hold up for an extra year, of course.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Mr Chacho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    My home
    Posts
    3,092
    Country: Spain

    Default

    Darrell, usagre use to be really stubborn. I remember in the EL's playoffs thread (Real Madrid vs PAO), that everybody said Real Madrid was in the FF after the 2nd game (even PAO fans) but he was the only one who said that PAO was going to come back. He repeated that message day over day, and what happened? Real Madrid won the 3rd Game.

    Read what CoachZ wrote, his knowledge about basketball is one of the bests in the forum.

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    541
    Country: Spain

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chacho View Post
    Read what CoachZ wrote, his knowledge about basketball is one of the bests in the forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    If they steer away from their normal uptempo style, which doesn't suit Marc Gasol at his age and try to play a more half-court based offense and lock it down defensively, I think they can be a medal team easy.

    Still, I have to say that since 2015-16, there is a significant drop in talent level.
    I respectfully disagree. I think Rubio is going to push up the tempo, taking advantage of a younger team with fresher legs and some good finishers (Juancho, Willy, Claver, and maybe Rabaseda, Llull and/or Jaime Fernández). Of course in halfcourt sets the ball is going to rotate much more and Marc is going to have the ball in his hands a fair number of plays. The transition game Rubio thrives on just could not be implemented with a starting lineup which featured both Gasol brothers, Navarro and a clearly hobbled Rudy.

    As for the drop in talent, that's true. Well, actually it boils down to missing Pau and his proven ability to get a basket whenever was needed. As for the rest, let's compare 2017 roster to this year's:

    Now absent

    - San Emeterio: did a decent work playing 20 minutes per game as backup SF. This year we will have Beirán or Rabaseda providing basically the same.

    - Sastre: played some good defence and didn't make mistakes in 19 minutes per game as backup SG. This year we have Llull, who, if healthy, is a much better player.

    - Navarro: played almost 15 minutes per game. You could replace him with a bag of chips and come out as the clear winner. He couldn't stop anybody and wasn't even a decent spot-up shooter. This year we have Rudy, who at least can hold his own on defence and knocked down over 40% of his 3-point attempts this year.

    - Abrines: only played for 15 minutes. I guess Ribas can take over towel-waving duties from him without issue. If anything, this is a positive as Ribas at least is a warm body in case everyone else fouls out or is otherwise unavailable.

    - Vives: 3rd string PG, played 46 minutes total. Nothing remarkable. Pau Ribas can wave a towel in each hand and replace both him and Abrines. Nobody will notice.

    - Rodríguez: OK, this hurts. Sergio completed an excellent tournament sharing PG duties with Rubio. We will try to replace his contributions with Colom and Jaime Fernández, but they aren't that good.

    - Pau Gasol: he will be replaced by Claver. A clear step down, no way around it.

    Coming back:

    - Rubio: so far, playing much better this year. Clear role of leader, let's see if he keeps it up.

    - Marc Gasol: a bit older, but still a good player. Will have to play less minutes and there are less games this year, so hopefully won't be an issue. Also won't have to share the paint with his brother, nor being forced to come out to three-point line to defend smaller players.

    - Juancho Hernangómez: two more years of NBA experience under his belt. Starting SF and clearly much better player now.

    - Willy Hernangómez: same as his brother. Much better player now, looks in great shape. Will play more minutes and replace some of Pau's scoring.

    - Pierre Oriola: another player who comes back improved. A hustle player, will take over the role Reyes had years ago.


    So, yeah. Missing Pau sucks. But otherwise SG, SF and PF positions are better this year. The absence of Sergio can somehow be mitigated by better play by Rubio and a plethora of backup PGs that can at least try on defence. And hopefully the tandem of Marc and Willy can provide some of the inside scoring we lost.

  11. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Country: United States

    Default

    @Darrell Armstrong

    I don’t understand why you keep bringing up 2017. No one else has. Coach Z is comparing it to ‘15-‘16 and I specifically said 2016. 2017 Eurobasket as everyone knows was a weird tournament in which just about every team had huge absenses.
    Stop referencing it. It is not relevant at all. I would love to see you do player comparison with that team.

    I think this Spanish team will have trouble scoring in a big spot. All other top contenders have true go to guys if times get rough and a basket is needed. This is where Pau’s absence will be magnified. Luckily for Spain due to the tournament format this probably won’t come until the semifinals.

  12. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Country: United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chacho View Post
    Darrell, usagre use to be really stubborn. I remember in the EL's playoffs thread (Real Madrid vs PAO), that everybody said Real Madrid was in the FF after the 2nd game (even PAO fans) but he was the only one who said that PAO was going to come back. He repeated that message day over day, and what happened? Real Madrid won the 3rd Game.

    Read what CoachZ wrote, his knowledge about basketball is one of the bests in the forum.
    I’ve been known to be right on occasion as well like predicting that the Toronto Raptors would win the Eastern Conference for months and even when things look bleak and was the only one when they were down 2-0 to Milwaukee.
    Just my opinion my man nobody is perfect.

  13. #33
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    4,486
    Country: Serbia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    I respectfully disagree. I think Rubio is going to push up the tempo, taking advantage of a younger team with fresher legs and some good finishers (Juancho, Willy, Claver, and maybe Rabaseda, Llull and/or Jaime Fernández). Of course in halfcourt sets the ball is going to rotate much more and Marc is going to have the ball in his hands a fair number of plays. The transition game Rubio thrives on just could not be implemented with a starting lineup which featured both Gasol brothers, Navarro and a clearly hobbled Rudy.

    As for the drop in talent, that's true. Well, actually it boils down to missing Pau and his proven ability to get a basket whenever was needed. As for the rest, let's compare 2017 roster to this year's:

    Now absent

    - San Emeterio: did a decent work playing 20 minutes per game as backup SF. This year we will have Beirán or Rabaseda providing basically the same.

    - Sastre: played some good defence and didn't make mistakes in 19 minutes per game as backup SG. This year we have Llull, who, if healthy, is a much better player.

    - Navarro: played almost 15 minutes per game. You could replace him with a bag of chips and come out as the clear winner. He couldn't stop anybody and wasn't even a decent spot-up shooter. This year we have Rudy, who at least can hold his own on defence and knocked down over 40% of his 3-point attempts this year.

    - Abrines: only played for 15 minutes. I guess Ribas can take over towel-waving duties from him without issue. If anything, this is a positive as Ribas at least is a warm body in case everyone else fouls out or is otherwise unavailable.

    - Vives: 3rd string PG, played 46 minutes total. Nothing remarkable. Pau Ribas can wave a towel in each hand and replace both him and Abrines. Nobody will notice.

    - Rodríguez: OK, this hurts. Sergio completed an excellent tournament sharing PG duties with Rubio. We will try to replace his contributions with Colom and Jaime Fernández, but they aren't that good.

    - Pau Gasol: he will be replaced by Claver. A clear step down, no way around it.

    Coming back:

    - Rubio: so far, playing much better this year. Clear role of leader, let's see if he keeps it up.

    - Marc Gasol: a bit older, but still a good player. Will have to play less minutes and there are less games this year, so hopefully won't be an issue. Also won't have to share the paint with his brother, nor being forced to come out to three-point line to defend smaller players.

    - Juancho Hernangómez: two more years of NBA experience under his belt. Starting SF and clearly much better player now.

    - Willy Hernangómez: same as his brother. Much better player now, looks in great shape. Will play more minutes and replace some of Pau's scoring.

    - Pierre Oriola: another player who comes back improved. A hustle player, will take over the role Reyes had years ago.


    So, yeah. Missing Pau sucks. But otherwise SG, SF and PF positions are better this year. The absence of Sergio can somehow be mitigated by better play by Rubio and a plethora of backup PGs that can at least try on defence. And hopefully the tandem of Marc and Willy can provide some of the inside scoring we lost.
    Unfortunately, the way transition game works, your center drags everything down there. Marc is a stationary player as of now and if you plan having a transition and uptempo based offense you will have huge problems. Here are key issues:

    - Yes Rubio loves to run, with Juancho and Llull along there as well BUT in order to be a great transition team, you have to have a big guy running down the middle to open up transition. Who is that guy? Marc? Fuck no. Willy? Not that type of player. You can't be a successfull transition and uptempo team without a big that can play in that tempo. That means on both sides of the floor, because transition leaves you exposed. You want to run Marc and Oriola into ground?

    - Rebounding. This will be a key issue for Spain in general, since there is no elite rebounder anywhere on the roster. Yes, guys like Rubio can help even as a guard, BUT as long as you have to worry about rebounding, you cannot run a transition game with success. If you leave rebounding to start transition to Marc, then you will not have a transition. If you use big guys to block out, and let guards take it into transition, you don't have bigs to run the transition. Anyway, it doesn't work.

    The best bet you have is to play excellent defense and focus on half-court sets and let Marc work inside and pass out to open shooters.
    Last edited by CoachZ; 08-14-2019 at 09:51 PM.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Mr Chacho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    My home
    Posts
    3,092
    Country: Spain

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    I’ve been known to be right on occasion as well like predicting that the Toronto Raptors would win the Eastern Conference for months and even when things look bleak and was the only one when they were down 2-0 to Milwaukee.
    Just my opinion my man nobody is perfect.
    Man, you said that Pitino would do his magic to come back, and you even said that you would bet. Your faith on Pitino was too much. How you said after the PO, RM had a better team and a better chemistry (Laso achieved It).

  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Country: United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Chacho View Post
    Man, you said that Pitino would do his magic to come back, and you even said that you would bet. Your faith on Pitino was too much. How you said after the PO, RM had a better team and a better chemistry (Laso achieved It).
    Like I said I got that one wrong by overestimating Pitino and the teams talent. My mistake since I wasn’t that familiar with his players. It was nothing personal against Real and this isn’t anything personal against Spain. I just think a Pau’s absence is not being given the attention and impact that it will have. And I also believe that Marc Gasol, Llull and Rudy have all seen a lot better days. I don’t see what’s so controversial about that.

  16. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    541
    Country: Spain

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    @Darrell Armstrong

    I don’t understand why you keep bringing up 2017. No one else has. Coach Z is comparing it to ‘15-‘16 and I specifically said 2016. 2017 Eurobasket as everyone knows was a weird tournament in which just about every team had huge absenses.
    Stop referencing it. It is not relevant at all. I would love to see you do player comparison with that team.

    I think this Spanish team will have trouble scoring in a big spot. All other top contenders have true go to guys if times get rough and a basket is needed. This is where Pau’s absence will be magnified. Luckily for Spain due to the tournament format this probably won’t come until the semifinals.
    I bring that up because it is the closest reference. Also a team that had significant shortcomings (I mean, SGs were a washed-up Navarro and never-been Sastre) and still competed at a high level. As in 2013, then without a go-to scorer, only bowed out against the eventual champion. You can chalk it up to absences, but, have you seen Canada's team recently? Or Australia's? It's not like everyone else brought all their best players.

    But well, if you want to compare that roster with the Olympics one, I'll oblige:

    PGs were mostly the same as 2017: Rubio and Rodríguez, with a Calderón cameo. Actually none of them were at the top of his game. Very erratic shooting and bad decision-making at times. They were much improved the following year.

    SGs were also not a bright spot: an equally ineffective Navarro, 6 minutes from Wolverine, and Llull getting the most burn but bringing mostly defence and missed shots. He only connected on 30% of his three-pointers and failed to score even 9 points per game in 26 minutes. May be a bigger name, but didn't do much more than Sastre in 2017.

    SFs weren't stellar, also: Rudy was effective, but clearly playing out of position, and Claver only contributed on one side of the court. They averaged 13 points per game. Next year San Eme and Juancho would score 15. I like Rudy, at least when he's not flopping or faking a gruesome death, but Juancho is the better SF.

    At PF, it's debatable. That year we had Mirotic, who was the second scorer and is a better fit for the modern game. But in 2017 we had Pau as the starting PF. Pau was a better scorer and rebounder, and a liability in defence when the other teams played 4 shooters. Reyes was the backup and played mostly as a garbage man. Had a lot of trouble scoring, and at this stage in his career I'd go with Oriola for that role, if you don't mind.

    And last but not least, the center in 2016 was Pau the Great himself, backed up by young Willy. Pau had to play a lot of minutes and you could clearly see that in the final three games he was skipping some plays in defence. Still was the hero of the bronze medal game. But, next year we had Marc and an improved Willy manning this position. I mean, inside play did not take a big hit from 2016 to 2017 as basically Marc replaced Mirotic (I'd go with a true PF alongside Pau, but you could make a case for the twin Gasol towers as well), Oriola replaced Reyes (slightly favor Oriola), and Willy had a year of NBA experience under his belt.

    So, if you can point out to me where was the talent dropoff, it would be much appreciated.

  17. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    541
    Country: Spain

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Willy? Not that type of player.... there is no elite rebounder anywhere on the roster.
    Have you seen Willy lately?

    I agree Marc is not made for transition game. We may see two different lineups and game plans, one with Rubio and finishers, the other with Marc and shooters. But considering we're dealing with the genius coach that kept Marc and Pau in the game when Slovenian bigs were raining threes on us, I wouldn't bet on it.

    Let's see. Looking forward to that practice game against Team USA.

  18. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Country: United States

    Default

    Again I am throwing out 2017 because of the lack of competition in general for that tournament.
    My comparison is 2016 and now. World Events, not a pseudo Eurobasket that was what 2017 was.

    2016 you had minutes

    Pau. 28
    Rudy. 27
    Mirotic. 26
    Llull. 26
    Sergio. 21
    Rubio. 17
    Navarro. 15
    Reyes. 15

    I don’t see how you can argue that 2019

    Rubio, Rudy, Juancho, Claver, Marc Gasol, Llull and Willy is not a major downgrade.

    Pau was a 16 and 11 NBA guy still in 2016 something Marc Gasol even in his prime had trouble duplicating let alone at this stage of his career. Pau averaged 20 and 9 in the tournament. Where will you replace this kind of production ?
    Mirotic was a solid second scoring option averaging 13 points a game on excellent efficient shooting. You being downgraded here as well. Rudy obviously at 31 as opposed to 34 was a way better player. Another downgrade. Llull has always been kind of a disappointment when it comes to the National team as opposed to Real but still he’s 3 years older now and not to far removed from a serious injury. Another downgrade. Finally Sergio, Rubio point guard combo is better than now as well.
    Another downgrade. Bench is probably an upgrade now since Reyes and Navarro were old and as you have stated more sentimental picks than anything.

    The draw is definitely in Spain’s advantage and basically only Italy and Argentina/Russia stand in their way from a semifinal appearance. I definitely think they will get there. In my opinion the difference is that after that I think they lose to anyone they play in the semifinal and in the third place game as well. I will be very surprised if they gain an automatic Olympic birth. They will be in the Olympic qualifying tournament most likely.

    Watching Spain these last 15 years in World Events I have come to expect more from them than I do now, that’s all I am saying. Maybe they will surprise me. If they do I will be the first to admit I was wrong about them.

  19. #39
    Senior Member reamily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    22,193

    Default

    dont underestimate spain..
    To becomes Asia's Best, we need to compete against the World's Best..

  20. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    3,607
    Country: United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by reamily View Post
    dont underestimate spain..
    I have them losing in the semifinal and finishing in fourth place. If you believe that’s underestimating them then yeah I guess I am.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •