Spanish NT 2019

[Darrell Armstrong]

bro, barcelona, in general, has very good sports program. i can't imagine spanish basketball and its program without barcelona. look at this team, rubio, colom, oriola, ribas, rabaseda, and marc gasol.

Well. I'd say that Barcelona has a very good sports program and very deep pockets to poach players from all the other programs. Rubio and Ribas were brought up by Joventut de Badalona. Oriola spent his formative years in minor catalonian clubs and started to make a name for himself while playing for Valencia. Quino Colom has never set foot on Barcelona. Marc Gasol only spent a couple years "developing" as a FC Barcelona player and almost made him abandon the sport. Luckily for us he was released, signed for a minor team (Girona), became MVP of Spain's domestic competition and went on to a good career in the NBA.

The only true Barcelona player on that list is Rabaseda. Of course Pau Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro are the cream of the crop and they both were raised by FC Barcelona junior system. So I cannot say anything wrong about them.

[Picek]

I have to back up Darrell on his feeling that Spain is being underestimated a lot this year.
probably it has to do with the fact that he is the only one as spaniard here backing them up and wasn't even here from the beginning of the thread and other topics in this WC 2019. subforum.
but I too like the possible and expected versatility of this spanish team but even more the fact that they are severely underestimated and overlooked by everyone.
can't really back it up with any facts as there aren't any yet but call it just a gut feeling.
over the years I have been really critical about Scariolo, as majority of us members here were as well, but now I'm really looking forward on seeing his spanish team plays after his full season with the Raptors.
this spanish team doesn't have Pau, their go to guy for nearly two decades but they do have Rubio in it's prime years now, Hernangomez bros, Gasol who is coming to WC as an NBA champ.
now after Lowry's exit, he is the only one who will be entering the WC as an NBA champ. if I'm not mistaken that is.
when was the last time that happened?
Rudy is slower but he is almost more precise from downtown then he ever was.
exactly what they need.
Llull coming in as a joker from bench.
Claver, Oriola.
I would say that what Spain has this year is more then France for example or Greece, talent wise surely more then Lithuania but Lithuania is there because of it's general basketball madness and team effort.
Spain is pretty deep and don't really see how their age can hurt them.
and the fact that they are coming in the tournament as underdogs can generally only help them.

Serbia, France, Greece, Spain, Lithuania, even Turkey from behind. Europe looks good. two out of three medals should come back to Europe again, for the 15th time in a row.

[Darrell Armstrong]

@Picek Thanks, much appreciated.

I must say that talent-wise there are other NTs with clearly more raw talent than Spain. But the first 3 preparation games have been very solid, with the frontcourt displaying very good understanding of the system, and superb player and ball movement. This is something we lacked even if we made up for it with star power when Scariolo and Orenga insisted on playing the Gasol brothers together even against teams with only one traditional big man. I concede we will have to adapt and probably have lost a step without Pau and the rest, but it also opens up new opportunities.

[Straight forward]

@Picek Thanks, much appreciated.

I must say that talent-wise there are other NTs with clearly more raw talent than Spain. But the first 3 preparation games have been very solid, with the frontcourt displaying very good understanding of the system, and superb player and ball movement. This is something we lacked even if we made up for it with star power when Scariolo and Orenga insisted on playing the Gasol brothers together even against teams with only one traditional big man. I concede we will have to adapt and probably have lost a step without Pau and the rest, but it also opens up new opportunities.

Against which opponents? JV, Sabonis, Jankunas less Lithuania (all our bigs basically). Congo?

Pau less Spain is so much worse that it's impossible to exaggerate this loss. Literally. I'm the one who actually was a fan of your passing generation, one of the most if not the most dominant generations fiba ever faced. But you're dreaming if you think this Spain will be anywhere close. Marc has some in the tank still, but not much. Always underperformed in FIBA anyway. Willy Hernangomez wouldn't even be among top 10 best bigs in the tournament, he's a mediorce NBA player, not even solid and elite bigs will be eating him alive, he's too soft. Your position 4 is too soft either, not that there's no Pau, but also Reyes who used to be a silent difference maker, position three is also highly questionable as Rudy is getting old and he's more of crippled talent than an athlete now and Juan is unpredictable mediocre NBA player, you wouldn't expect him to be the glue guy, high IQ system player. Backcourt is banged up with Llull and Rudy, and Rubio is now your best player, but in FIBA he's a walking lottery, you never now if you'll get absolutely mediocre performance or very solid all around game from him (because he can't shoot on consistent basis). That's just reality, Spain is no-where close to what it used to be. Period.

Yet, I still put them in the same branch with Spain, France, Australia, Greece, Lithuania generally speaking.

[Darrell Armstrong]

Pau less Spain is so much worse that it's impossible to exaggerate this loss. Literally. I'm the one who actually was a fan of your passing generation, one of the most if not the most dominant generations fiba ever faced. But you're dreaming if you think this Spain will be anywhere close. Marc has some in the tank still, but not much. Always underperformed in FIBA anyway. Willy Hernangomez wouldn't even be among top 10 best bigs in the tournament, he's a mediorce NBA player, not even solid and elite bigs will be eating him alive, he's too soft. Your position 4 is too soft either, not that there's no Pau, but also Reyes who used to be a silent difference maker, position three is also highly questionable as Rudy is getting old and he's more of crippled talent than an athlete now and Juan is unpredictable mediocre NBA player, you wouldn't expect him to be the glue guy, high IQ system player. Backcourt is banged up with Llull and Rudy, and Rubio is now your best player, but in FIBA he's a walking lottery, you never now if you'll get absolutely mediocre performance or very solid all around game from him (because he can't shoot on consistent basis). That's just reality, Spain is no-where close to what it used to be. Period.

Oh, man. Please let me save this up until we see them in real action. Can I?

What I can tell you now is that young, unproven players will always seem a step down from known, proven veterans until they get their chance. Again, I'm not predicting easy wins for Spain. Just claiming that there's life after Pau, and we can still play a good, if different, brand of basketball and compete against anyone.

[Straight forward]

Oh, man. Please let me save this up until we see them in real action. Can I?

What I can tell you now is that young, unproven players will always seem a step down from known, proven veterans until they get their chance. Again, I'm not predicting easy wins for Spain. Just claiming that there's life after Pau, and we can still play a good, if different, brand of basketball and compete against anyone.

Who are those gems to replace Pau and some other absolute studs as Navarro? That's not even a discussion. Even with closer comparisons, you will be missing players like Mirotic badly as well. Again, we are comparing absolute FIBA greatness with current Spain's roster. Somehow you take it nearly as an insult. Maybe I'm wrong and some real gems panning out, but who? Name them, or you expect to be surprised by your self? Lithuania has maybe the best basketball school in terms of a disciplined, coherence and self-sacrifice. But when elite players like Jasikevicius and Siskauskas retired or paused their careers, it wasn't the same. We still hasn't bounced back since that, we're at least a level below still. Spain without Pau won't be the same, unless you will name who's or some combination of a players steeping into his shoes. Other than that it's hopeful speculation.

[Valexander]

I think we are all in the same page.

1 Obviously there is a step down since Gasol garbajosa Navarro Calderon era.
2 Still a solid medal contender.

No one underrated current Spain NT. The only comment amongst dozens that was an obvious underestimation was from darell the one who opened that, by saying Spain’s presence on semis is doubtful

[Darrell Armstrong]

Who are those gems to replace Pau and some other absolute studs as Navarro? That's not even a discussion. Even with closer comparisons, you will be missing players like Mirotic badly as well. Again, we are comparing absolute FIBA greatness with current Spain's roster. Somehow you take it nearly as an insult. Maybe I'm wrong and some real gems panning out, but who? Name them, or you expect to be surprised by your self? Lithuania has maybe the best basketball school in terms of a disciplined, coherence and self-sacrifice. But when elite players like Jasikevicius and Siskauskas retired or paused their careers, it wasn't the same. We still hasn't bounced back since that, we're at least a level below still. Spain without Pau won't be the same, unless you will name who's or some combination of a players steeping into his shoes. Other than that it's hopeful speculation.

You're overreacting. I don't take your words, or anyone else's, as an insult. And I agree that we will be missing Pau and the rest of the great, now retired, players. Again, I repeat myself: I'm not claiming we'll ever be as dominant as, say, 2011 Eurobasket. And no one is going to take Pau's place and become the saviour of our NT. What I expect is a different brand of basketball. A brand that may not have the same potential for greatness, but still a nice one. I had the first taste during these friendly games and I liked what I saw. You're of course entitled to hold a different opinion and attribute all hints of brilliance to the low level of competition.

The good thing is we won't have to wait for long to see if these mediocre players are able to become a good orchestra. I'm not even shooting for medals. I'll be happy if they give proof of being able to play good basketball and come to any game with a fighting chance of winning against any other NT in the world.

[madmax]

You're overreacting. I don't take your words, or anyone else's, as an insult. And I agree that we will be missing Pau and the rest of the great, now retired, players. Again, I repeat myself: I'm not claiming we'll ever be as dominant as, say, 2011 Eurobasket. And no one is going to take Pau's place and become the saviour of our NT. What I expect is a different brand of basketball. A brand that may not have the same potential for greatness, but still a nice one. I had the first taste during these friendly games and I liked what I saw. You're of course entitled to hold a different opinion and attribute all hints of brilliance to the low level of competition.

The good thing is we won't have to wait for long to see if these mediocre players are able to become a good orchestra. I'm not even shooting for medals. I'll be happy if they give proof of being able to play good basketball and come to any game with a fighting chance of winning against any other NT in the world.

wise words indeed from a level headed fan
Anyone who underestimates a cohesive experienced spanish squad may do it at their own peril -I personally think they have best PG in the tournament and that alone should make them extremely dangerous

[CoachZ]

Nobody should ever write Spain off. The age of some of the main players is an issue, but they are quite experienced with preserving their energy and they can hit another gear at a later stage. I think that they will run a lot of 2 PG sets, something that they did in the past as well. I also think this will better suit Llull if the plays, since he won't have as heavy a load.

Rubio - Llull - Juancho - Claver - Gasol is defensively probably the best lineup outside of Team USA. That team could stiffle a lot of very talented squads. If they steer away from their normal uptempo style, which doesn't suit Marc Gasol at his age and try to play a more half-court based offense and lock it down defensively, I think they can be a medal team easy.

Still, I have to say that since 2015-16, there is a significant drop in talent level.

[Shawshank]

Spain still got good players, at the end of the day they still have 4 current NBA players + 2 former NBA players it still counts for something. On that bracket side only Serbia have better players overall.Even this Spain are better than all those Italy,Argentina, Nigeria,Poland or what ever average teams are on that side.Because lucky draw and russian injuries opened the way.Spain can make semifinal just beating Italy in group and let say Argentina in 1/4 they surely capable of doing that.

But do this Spain roster is top 4 in this tournament? I don't think so.Only Rubio and maybe Willy is on peak of his powers right now from all main Spanish players on this roster.

But looking further after 2020 Olympics, Spain results will fall dramatically,but it's normal it's impossible to stay on such dominant level they were for 15 years, eventually not so great generation comes around and all NT except USA need to go through that.

[Darrell Armstrong]

wise words indeed from a level headed fan
Anyone who underestimates a cohesive experienced spanish squad may do it at their own peril -I personally think they have best PG in the tournament and that alone should make them extremely dangerous

Thanks. Just trying to keep it real.

[Darrell Armstrong]

But do this Spain roster is top 4 in this tournament? I don't think so.Only Rubio and maybe Willy is on peak of his powers right now from all main Spanish players on this roster.

But looking further after 2020 Olympics, Spain results will fall dramatically,but it's normal it's impossible to stay on such dominant level they were for 15 years, eventually not so great generation comes around and all NT except USA need to go through that.

Top-4? Likely not. But I'd like to think there's no team out of our reach if we play a good game. In almost all of the tournaments in this century, Spain has made it to the finals or only bowed out to one of the finalists, and putting up a good fight. I only remember 2014 as the exception. If we keep that trend I'll be quite happy.

As for the Olympics, well, let's qualify first and then we can speculate about results. It's hard to know beforehand because of injuries, absences or the possibility of a down year is always there. But providing everyone is in good health and motivated by the chance of adding a new Olympic medal, I'm confident our best potential roster is better than this year's:

Rubio/Rodríguez - Abrines/Llull - Juancho/Claver - Mirotic/Oriola - Marc/Willy. Just by adding a good shooter with size, an Euroleague-caliber backup PG and a top european PF we will boast a more balanced lineup. As long as Marc's body can hold up for an extra year, of course.

[Mr Chacho]

Darrell, usagre use to be really stubborn. I remember in the EL's playoffs thread (Real Madrid vs PAO), that everybody said Real Madrid was in the FF after the 2nd game (even PAO fans) but he was the only one who said that PAO was going to come back. He repeated that message day over day, and what happened? Real Madrid won the 3rd Game.

Read what CoachZ wrote, his knowledge about basketball is one of the bests in the forum.

[Darrell Armstrong]

Read what CoachZ wrote, his knowledge about basketball is one of the bests in the forum.

If they steer away from their normal uptempo style, which doesn't suit Marc Gasol at his age and try to play a more half-court based offense and lock it down defensively, I think they can be a medal team easy.

Still, I have to say that since 2015-16, there is a significant drop in talent level.

I respectfully disagree. I think Rubio is going to push up the tempo, taking advantage of a younger team with fresher legs and some good finishers (Juancho, Willy, Claver, and maybe Rabaseda, Llull and/or Jaime Fernández). Of course in halfcourt sets the ball is going to rotate much more and Marc is going to have the ball in his hands a fair number of plays. The transition game Rubio thrives on just could not be implemented with a starting lineup which featured both Gasol brothers, Navarro and a clearly hobbled Rudy.

As for the drop in talent, that's true. Well, actually it boils down to missing Pau and his proven ability to get a basket whenever was needed. As for the rest, let's compare 2017 roster to this year's:

Now absent

- San Emeterio: did a decent work playing 20 minutes per game as backup SF. This year we will have Beirán or Rabaseda providing basically the same.

- Sastre: played some good defence and didn't make mistakes in 19 minutes per game as backup SG. This year we have Llull, who, if healthy, is a much better player.

- Navarro: played almost 15 minutes per game. You could replace him with a bag of chips and come out as the clear winner. He couldn't stop anybody and wasn't even a decent spot-up shooter. This year we have Rudy, who at least can hold his own on defence and knocked down over 40% of his 3-point attempts this year.

- Abrines: only played for 15 minutes. I guess Ribas can take over towel-waving duties from him without issue. If anything, this is a positive as Ribas at least is a warm body in case everyone else fouls out or is otherwise unavailable.

- Vives: 3rd string PG, played 46 minutes total. Nothing remarkable. Pau Ribas can wave a towel in each hand and replace both him and Abrines. Nobody will notice.

- Rodríguez: OK, this hurts. Sergio completed an excellent tournament sharing PG duties with Rubio. We will try to replace his contributions with Colom and Jaime Fernández, but they aren't that good.

- Pau Gasol: he will be replaced by Claver. A clear step down, no way around it.

Coming back:

- Rubio: so far, playing much better this year. Clear role of leader, let's see if he keeps it up.

- Marc Gasol: a bit older, but still a good player. Will have to play less minutes and there are less games this year, so hopefully won't be an issue. Also won't have to share the paint with his brother, nor being forced to come out to three-point line to defend smaller players.

- Juancho Hernangómez: two more years of NBA experience under his belt. Starting SF and clearly much better player now.

- Willy Hernangómez: same as his brother. Much better player now, looks in great shape. Will play more minutes and replace some of Pau's scoring.

- Pierre Oriola: another player who comes back improved. A hustle player, will take over the role Reyes had years ago.


So, yeah. Missing Pau sucks. But otherwise SG, SF and PF positions are better this year. The absence of Sergio can somehow be mitigated by better play by Rubio and a plethora of backup PGs that can at least try on defence. And hopefully the tandem of Marc and Willy can provide some of the inside scoring we lost.