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Thread: Spanish NT 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    I agree about Spain. I was probably being generous. I don’t think they are that good anymore.
    I like how people on this board are always quick to disregard Spain as a contender, and announce their inevitable fall from grace. I remember most greek fans after 2006 championship game (that was 13 years ago, fellas) unanimously agreeing Greece was the better team with the brighter future and Spain had just lucked out and would get stomped next year. Not the best prophecy coming from the country of the Oracle, I guess.

    In all these years since 2006, Spain has been the only team playing on an almost equal foot to USA, year in and year out. Other NTs have been able to make USA sweat once or twice, but most of the time they just get run over. Specially Serbia. Not to take away anything from them, I agree they bring the best non-USA roster to this championship. But their record against Team USA is, well, not very good.

    Spain and USA will play a friendly game this weekend. I'm not expecting much, since both coaches won't want to show too much and will keep their best players' minutes to a minimum; but we'll have a glimpse of how this poor Spanish squad matchs up against the top contender.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    I like how people on this board are always quick to disregard Spain as a contender, and announce their inevitable fall from grace. I remember most greek fans after 2006 championship game (that was 13 years ago, fellas) unanimously agreeing Greece was the better team with the brighter future and Spain had just lucked out and would get stomped next year. Not the best prophecy coming from the country of the Oracle, I guess.

    In all these years since 2006, Spain has been the only team playing on an almost equal foot to USA, year in and year out. Other NTs have been able to make USA sweat once or twice, but most of the time they just get run over. Specially Serbia. Not to take away anything from them, I agree they bring the best non-USA roster to this championship. But their record against Team USA is, well, not very good.

    Spain and USA will play a friendly game this weekend. I'm not expecting much, since both coaches won't want to show too much and will keep their best players' minutes to a minimum; but we'll have a glimpse of how this poor Spanish squad matchs up against the top contender.
    Well, as I argued, Spain is arguably the best team out there after the USA if they show up with a full roster. But some disagree. I don't know about this team. But my guess is that this Spanish team can not be underestimated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    I like how people on this board are always quick to disregard Spain as a contender, and announce their inevitable fall from grace. I remember most greek fans after 2006 championship game (that was 13 years ago, fellas) unanimously agreeing Greece was the better team with the brighter future and Spain had just lucked out and would get stomped next year. Not the best prophecy coming from the country of the Oracle, I guess.

    In all these years since 2006, Spain has been the only team playing on an almost equal foot to USA, year in and year out. Other NTs have been able to make USA sweat once or twice, but most of the time they just get run over. Specially Serbia. Not to take away anything from them, I agree they bring the best non-USA roster to this championship. But their record against Team USA is, well, not very good.

    Spain and USA will play a friendly game this weekend. I'm not expecting much, since both coaches won't want to show too much and will keep their best players' minutes to a minimum; but we'll have a glimpse of how this poor Spanish squad matchs up against the top contender.
    I don't see where you felt like someone underestimates Spain. The majority of the people here consider Spain as an equal medal contender, along side (imo) with serbia, France Lithuania.

    Now, if you mean that with the word "contender", you feel like there are chances for gold, that is an illusion for any team, not only this year, not only for Spain, but for everyone, for 12 years now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valexander View Post
    I don't see where you felt like someone underestimates Spain. The majority of the people here consider Spain as an equal medal contender, along side (imo) with serbia, France Lithuania.

    Now, if you mean that with the word "contender", you feel like there are chances for gold, that is an illusion for any team, not only this year, not only for Spain, but for everyone, for 12 years now.
    Well, I was replying to a post where the case was made that Spain had no chances against USA. I'm not even saying that Spain is going to earn a medal this year. There are a lot of teams more than capable of taking us out even before the QFs. Just pointing out that Spain has been matching up pretty well against USA for a long time, and almost for that long, we had doomsayers on this board predicting Spain's failure. So let's see, a team on paper may not seem like much, but resilience, chemistry, coaching and peaking at the right moment are all factors much more important than just piling up talent from 1 to 12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    Well, I was replying to a post where the case was made that Spain had no chances against USA. I'm not even saying that Spain is going to earn a medal this year. There are a lot of teams more than capable of taking us out even before the QFs. Just pointing out that Spain has been matching up pretty well against USA for a long time, and almost for that long, we had doomsayers on this board predicting Spain's failure. So let's see, a team on paper may not seem like much, but resilience, chemistry, coaching and peaking at the right moment are all factors much more important than just piling up talent from 1 to 12.
    You need to see the brackets, or else i am afraid it's only you that underestimates Spain. The "more than capable teams" which can leave Spain out of the semis are: Italy, Argentina, Russia, Nigeria, Poland, China.

    On the other hand, losing to any US team, was never a failure for anybody. It is common sense in any given day, and that's beyond any team chemistry, coaching or individual form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valexander View Post
    You need to see the brackets, or else i am afraid it's only you that underestimates Spain. The "more than capable teams" which can leave Spain out of the semis are: Italy, Argentina, Russia, Nigeria, Poland, China.

    On the other hand, losing to any US team, was never a failure for anybody. It is common sense in any given day, and that's beyond any team chemistry, coaching or individual form.
    Italy has the perfect recipe to beat Spain: lots of shooters and good team defence. Depending on other results, they may prevent us from advancing to the QFs. And in the QFs, unless we can beat Serbia we will be facing the best team from groups A and B. Russia can beat us if they catch fire. Argentina is always competitive and has good guards. Nigeria is a wild card, they surely have a lot of talent and athleticism and it's just a matter of playing under control and following the plan. Losing against any of them doesn't seem far-fetched to me. I mean, our 2014 squad was stacked and still lost to a less talented team, although better coached. I of course have faith we will at least reach semis. I'd rate us as the 2nd best team on our side of the bracket, behind Serbia. That doesn't mean we're a lock to make it. It would be very, very disappointing to see Serbia failing to make it to the medal round; but only mildly disappointing if Spain misses out.

    Anyway, I also do not consider it a failure to be beaten by Team USA. I'd like to see a close game, though. Make them earn it. I was just making a broad comment, since just before every tourney there's people predicting a bad result for Spain, and claim they're no longer as good as before. And they're usually proven wrong, so maybe after all these years Spain should be given a less hasty evaluation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    since just before every tourney there's people predicting a bad result for Spain, and claim they're no longer as good as before. And they're usually proven wrong, so maybe after all these years Spain should be given a less hasty evaluation.
    Yeah and it's been Pau Gasol that has proved them wrong. This group is older and not as talented as previous teams. In general I don't think there are a lot of strong teams in the field so Spain will be grouped right there with them but they are not a serious threat in my opinion against the US and I would also bet a long shot to make the Final.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    Yeah and it's been Pau Gasol that has proved them wrong. This group is older and not as talented as previous teams. In general I don't think there are a lot of strong teams in the field so Spain will be grouped right there with them but they are not a serious threat in my opinion against the US and I would also bet a long shot to make the Final.
    I can buy less talented. But older? Do you even know who is on the roster?

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    Yeah I know who is on the roster that matters.
    Marc Gasol, Rudy Fernandez, and Sergio Llull are three of your top 4 most important players and they are old. Rubio and the Hernangomez bros are prime. Even Claver is in his 30's.
    You don't think that's an old nucleus ? What are you gonna give me an average age of the roster which is calculated by guys are gonna play little to no minutes ? What value does that have ?

    Pau Gasol has been the most consistent best FIBA player probably ever.
    If you think he won't be missed your nuts. When I think of a Pau-less Spain the underachieving
    2010 Worlds team comes to mind. This team resembles that more than any Pau led teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    Yeah I know who is on the roster that matters.
    Marc Gasol, Rudy Fernandez, and Sergio Llull are three of your top 4 most important players and they are old. Rubio and the Hernangomez bros are prime. Even Claver is in his 30's.
    You don't think that's an old nucleus ? What are you gonna give me an average age of the roster which is calculated by guys are gonna play little to no minutes ? What value does that have ?

    Pau Gasol has been the most consistent best FIBA player probably ever.
    If you think he won't be missed your nuts. When I think of a Pau-less Spain the underachieving
    2010 Worlds team comes to mind. This team resembles that more than any Pau led teams.
    No, you don't really know who is on the roster. For the 2016 Olympic Games we brought a team with Calderón, Navarro, Reyes and Pau Gasol, all 34 or older. This was one of the main problems of that squad, by the way. Only Pau deserved a spot, everyone else was just dragging the team down but still invited since there was an understanding between federation, coaches and players that the members of the Golden Generation would have a spot on the team until they retired. Now tell me how we can get older than that.

    Then, Marc is 34 but still one of the top centers in the competition. He's backed up by young Willy Hernangómez so his minutes can be limited and I don't expect his age to be any kind of issue. Then you mention Rudy and Llull, who still have to make the team. They probably will due to lack of competition. I admit Rudy is showing his age, and is quite likely he would have had a very reduced role if Abrines was available. Llull, if fully recovered, would be the first guard off the bench. That's it.

    Top 4 players for Spain are Marc, Rubio and the Hernangómez brothers. Yes, we have a bunch of players around the 30yo mark, but that's an improvement over previous tournaments. I'm not saying this squad is not old (although being born in the 80s I prefer the term mature :P), just not older.

    Another clue: most of this year's subs are no spring chickens neither. So I was never going to bring up "average age" as a metric. The only young player other than the H brothers would be Jaime Fernández, who projects as the 5th guard. The core of the team going forward would be Rubio-Abrines-Juancho-Mirotic-Willy. This year Marc is still better, though, and Mirotic and Abrines are absent. So, not really worried about Rudy and the gang getting older.

    I never said that Pau won't be missed. But you should consider 2014 Worlds, with Pau in great shape, we got exactly as far as 2010. Wish we could have him back, sure. But we have to move on, and most other teams are also missing some of their best players.

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    Semantics. Old, older. Just compare the ages of your key guys with that of Serbia, France, and the US. The other top contenders and tell me what you see.

    Mentioning that Pau was 34 in 2016 as if it was some kind of negative is silly since that Pau would be the best player on your team in this years version. Reyes was a bench player in that tournament and was like 7th or 8th in minutes. I am talking about the top main 5 maybe 6 guys that will play the majority of the minutes and have the main role and say on what you will accomplish. Bringing up Calderon again shows me you are having difficulty with the concept. He was on the roster but barely played so he and his age are irrelevant.

    The 2016 team is vastly superior to this one it's not even close.
    Again compare the top 6 or so guys and see for yourself.
    Marc Gasol is old and even at his best he has never been as good for Spain than in NBA, Rudy is old and half the player he used to be. Lull is not that far removed from that serious injury and he is in his early 30's.
    Your nucleus is old or older than the other teams that are considered serious medal contenders.

    Forgot to mention Greece with core of Giannis,
    Calathes, Sloukas and Papanikolaou all 30 and under.

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    @ Darrell Armstrong

    Give me your to 8 or 9 Spain players,
    Starters and rotation, maybe minute estimate.
    Maybe I am missing something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    Semantics. Old, older. Just compare the ages of your key guys with that of Serbia, France, and the US. The other top contenders and tell me what you see.

    Mentioning that Pau was 34 in 2016 as if it was some kind of negative is silly since that Pau would be the best player on your team in this years version. Reyes was a bench player in that tournament and was like 7th or 8th in minutes. I am talking about the top main 5 maybe 6 guys that will play the majority of the minutes and have the main role and say on what you will accomplish. Bringing up Calderon again shows me you are having difficulty with the concept. He was on the roster but barely played so he and his age are irrelevant.

    The 2016 team is vastly superior to this one it's not even close.
    Again compare the top 6 or so guys and see for yourself.
    Marc Gasol is old and even at his best he has never been as good for Spain than in NBA, Rudy is old and half the player he used to be. Lull is not that far removed from that serious injury and he is in his early 30's.
    Your nucleus is old or older than the other teams that are considered serious medal contenders.

    Forgot to mention Greece with core of Giannis,
    Calathes, Sloukas and Papanikolaou all 30 and under.
    I'm sorry but if you claim that our 2019 team is "less talented and older" than 2016 or 2017 squads you cannot complain if I point out that those squads were, in fact, full of semiretired players. Also, please have in mind that age, in a vacuum, is a very poor indicator of success. So it's a bit of an empty exercise to compare the age of the core players from different contenders. Specially if you consider the very small number of games involved. Due to our light schedule we only need to go all out for 4 games: one in the 2nd phase to earn a QFs berth, and then the final three. Load management is also simpler this year as Marc has a very good backup in Willy Hernangómez. You can quote me on this: Willy will be the top scorer for this squad.

    Again, I don't see why you fail to grasp that the core, or nucleus, of this team does not include Rudy or Llull. The latter may not even play, he's recovering from minor injuries and although expected to make the final 12, could likely experience a setback and be left out of the final roster. As I said before, the top 4 players this year are Rubio, Marc, and the Hernangómez brothers.

    About this squad being less talented than previous encarnations: you are completely right. Team USA doesn't hold a candle to any of the Redeem Teams neither.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    @ Darrell Armstrong

    Give me your to 8 or 9 Spain players,
    Starters and rotation, maybe minute estimate.
    Maybe I am missing something.
    Starters: Rubio - Rudy - Juancho - Claver - Gasol.
    Subs: Colom / Jaime Fernández - Llull / Jaime Fernández - Beirán - Oriola - Willy
    Towel boy: Pau Ribas.

    Regarding minutes, I expect an even split between starters and substitutes for the first round. In closer games I think Rubio and Juancho will get almost 30 minutes of burn, as their replacements are the most suspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    Starters: Rubio - Rudy - Juancho - Claver - Gasol.
    Subs: Colom / Jaime Fernández - Llull / Jaime Fernández - Beirán - Oriola - Willy
    Towel boy: Pau Ribas.

    Regarding minutes, I expect an even split between starters and substitutes for the first round. In closer games I think Rubio and Juancho will get almost 30 minutes of burn, as their replacements are the most suspect.
    bro, barcelona, in general, has very good sports program. i can't imagine spanish basketball and its program without barcelona. look at this team, rubio, colom, oriola, ribas, rabaseda, and marc gasol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ja.he View Post
    bro, barcelona, in general, has very good sports program. i can't imagine spanish basketball and its program without barcelona. look at this team, rubio, colom, oriola, ribas, rabaseda, and marc gasol.
    Well. I'd say that Barcelona has a very good sports program and very deep pockets to poach players from all the other programs. Rubio and Ribas were brought up by Joventut de Badalona. Oriola spent his formative years in minor catalonian clubs and started to make a name for himself while playing for Valencia. Quino Colom has never set foot on Barcelona. Marc Gasol only spent a couple years "developing" as a FC Barcelona player and almost made him abandon the sport. Luckily for us he was released, signed for a minor team (Girona), became MVP of Spain's domestic competition and went on to a good career in the NBA.

    The only true Barcelona player on that list is Rabaseda. Of course Pau Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro are the cream of the crop and they both were raised by FC Barcelona junior system. So I cannot say anything wrong about them.

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    I have to back up Darrell on his feeling that Spain is being underestimated a lot this year.
    probably it has to do with the fact that he is the only one as spaniard here backing them up and wasn't even here from the beginning of the thread and other topics in this WC 2019. subforum.
    but I too like the possible and expected versatility of this spanish team but even more the fact that they are severely underestimated and overlooked by everyone.
    can't really back it up with any facts as there aren't any yet but call it just a gut feeling.
    over the years I have been really critical about Scariolo, as majority of us members here were as well, but now I'm really looking forward on seeing his spanish team plays after his full season with the Raptors.
    this spanish team doesn't have Pau, their go to guy for nearly two decades but they do have Rubio in it's prime years now, Hernangomez bros, Gasol who is coming to WC as an NBA champ.
    now after Lowry's exit, he is the only one who will be entering the WC as an NBA champ. if I'm not mistaken that is.
    when was the last time that happened?
    Rudy is slower but he is almost more precise from downtown then he ever was.
    exactly what they need.
    Llull coming in as a joker from bench.
    Claver, Oriola.
    I would say that what Spain has this year is more then France for example or Greece, talent wise surely more then Lithuania but Lithuania is there because of it's general basketball madness and team effort.
    Spain is pretty deep and don't really see how their age can hurt them.
    and the fact that they are coming in the tournament as underdogs can generally only help them.

    Serbia, France, Greece, Spain, Lithuania, even Turkey from behind. Europe looks good. two out of three medals should come back to Europe again, for the 15th time in a row.
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    @Picek Thanks, much appreciated.

    I must say that talent-wise there are other NTs with clearly more raw talent than Spain. But the first 3 preparation games have been very solid, with the frontcourt displaying very good understanding of the system, and superb player and ball movement. This is something we lacked even if we made up for it with star power when Scariolo and Orenga insisted on playing the Gasol brothers together even against teams with only one traditional big man. I concede we will have to adapt and probably have lost a step without Pau and the rest, but it also opens up new opportunities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    @Picek Thanks, much appreciated.

    I must say that talent-wise there are other NTs with clearly more raw talent than Spain. But the first 3 preparation games have been very solid, with the frontcourt displaying very good understanding of the system, and superb player and ball movement. This is something we lacked even if we made up for it with star power when Scariolo and Orenga insisted on playing the Gasol brothers together even against teams with only one traditional big man. I concede we will have to adapt and probably have lost a step without Pau and the rest, but it also opens up new opportunities.
    Against which opponents? JV, Sabonis, Jankunas less Lithuania (all our bigs basically). Congo?

    Pau less Spain is so much worse that it's impossible to exaggerate this loss. Literally. I'm the one who actually was a fan of your passing generation, one of the most if not the most dominant generations fiba ever faced. But you're dreaming if you think this Spain will be anywhere close. Marc has some in the tank still, but not much. Always underperformed in FIBA anyway. Willy Hernangomez wouldn't even be among top 10 best bigs in the tournament, he's a mediorce NBA player, not even solid and elite bigs will be eating him alive, he's too soft. Your position 4 is too soft either, not that there's no Pau, but also Reyes who used to be a silent difference maker, position three is also highly questionable as Rudy is getting old and he's more of crippled talent than an athlete now and Juan is unpredictable mediocre NBA player, you wouldn't expect him to be the glue guy, high IQ system player. Backcourt is banged up with Llull and Rudy, and Rubio is now your best player, but in FIBA he's a walking lottery, you never now if you'll get absolutely mediocre performance or very solid all around game from him (because he can't shoot on consistent basis). That's just reality, Spain is no-where close to what it used to be. Period.

    Yet, I still put them in the same branch with Spain, France, Australia, Greece, Lithuania generally speaking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Pau less Spain is so much worse that it's impossible to exaggerate this loss. Literally. I'm the one who actually was a fan of your passing generation, one of the most if not the most dominant generations fiba ever faced. But you're dreaming if you think this Spain will be anywhere close. Marc has some in the tank still, but not much. Always underperformed in FIBA anyway. Willy Hernangomez wouldn't even be among top 10 best bigs in the tournament, he's a mediorce NBA player, not even solid and elite bigs will be eating him alive, he's too soft. Your position 4 is too soft either, not that there's no Pau, but also Reyes who used to be a silent difference maker, position three is also highly questionable as Rudy is getting old and he's more of crippled talent than an athlete now and Juan is unpredictable mediocre NBA player, you wouldn't expect him to be the glue guy, high IQ system player. Backcourt is banged up with Llull and Rudy, and Rubio is now your best player, but in FIBA he's a walking lottery, you never now if you'll get absolutely mediocre performance or very solid all around game from him (because he can't shoot on consistent basis). That's just reality, Spain is no-where close to what it used to be. Period.
    Oh, man. Please let me save this up until we see them in real action. Can I?

    What I can tell you now is that young, unproven players will always seem a step down from known, proven veterans until they get their chance. Again, I'm not predicting easy wins for Spain. Just claiming that there's life after Pau, and we can still play a good, if different, brand of basketball and compete against anyone.

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