2020 Olympic Qualifying Tournaments

[mojo13]

Well i didnt want to answer in the first place. Considering Czech a bigger threat cant be taken seriously anyway.

Just going by how Czechia and Turkey have looked in the last few major FIBA events. Czechia is clearly a sum or more than its parts.

[Toruko]

Is Turkey paying Larkin for his services? Do you think they offered more or less than Croatia?

I think what unsettles people are these very unnatural naturalizations where the player has very little to do with its new nation. I understand the naturalization of someone who had parents or grandparents from the country. Per perhaps have a wife and kids of that nationality and been living there for many years. This just comes across as outright mercenarial. More Andre Blatche type purchasing of players.

It is what it is - legal within FIBAs rules, but somewhat makes a mockery of the rule. And frankly I kind of support it for weaker basketball nations to help level the playing field. Perhaps Canada should purchase Pascal Siakam? Unfortunately the citizenship process in Canada is not governed by a dictator with a magic wand.

Canada itself is a naturalization since there is no tribe called Canadian.

[Toruko]

Just going by how Czechia and Turkey have looked in the last few major FIBA events. Czechia is clearly a sum or more than its parts.

You need to understand the circumstances. If you play a great game against the united states, defeat them technically in OT and lose the game because you cant make 1 of 4 free throws, lose your only defensive player due to an injury and play a do or die game one day after can make you lose.

[mojo13]

To put an end to this naturalization discussion. Except two or three teams every nt is using a naturalized player. All this exceptions have the right to discuss about it but also the right doing the same so the fact of the matter is this right exists and gets used. I hope that some day we wont need a foreign point guard but it will be fun to watch this extraordinarily talented offensive team.

Do all but two or three have naturalized players? Seems many (or most?) American and African team don’t. This seems a European (guards) and Asian (bigs) problem.

[Toruko]

Do all but two or three have naturalized players? Seems many (or most?) American and African team don’t. This seems a European (guards) and Asian (bigs) problem.

You can have many naturalized player but only one can play. Having more than one gives you a certain flexibility if one gets injured

[mojo13]

You can have many naturalized player but only one can play. Having more than one gives you a certain flexibility if one gets injured

I was referring to fact that many (maybe most) countries don’t have a single naturalized player if you look at things globally.
Were there more than 2 or 3 total in the Top 10 at the WC? More than 4 or 5 in the Top 20? I don’t know - just going off of recall here, and I don’t remember too many. I’m disputing the comment that “everyone does this” and it is actually more in the minority. Maybe I am wrong....

[Toruko]

I was referring to fact that many (maybe most) countries don’t have a single naturalized player if you look at things globally.
Were there more than 2 or 3 total in the Top 10 at the WC? More than 4 or 5 in the Top 20? I don’t know - just going off of recall here, and I don’t remember too many. I’m disputing the comment that “everyone does this” and it is actually more in the minority. Maybe I am wrong....

I got you know. Well Spain had in the last decade one of the best european teams of all time and it didnt prevent them to naturalize Mirotic and Ibaka. I hadnt head any objections back then.

[Furkan Korkmaz]

I'm not Lithuanian but we have simmilar views so I feel free to tell it from Serbian perspective. I think that Serbian federation would have all possible chances for taking a high quality player like Larkin. Larkin wanted to play for Croatia for example first but their president avoided direct negotiations. It's a state of principle. In Serbia some players even directly said that they wouldn't participate any more in national team actions if some Americans would play for us. The basketball national team is viewed as some kind of masterpiece of Serbian sport, maybe more, some thing that has been created for generations now - something cultural, spiritual, mysthical.

I don't think anyone is crying, there is also no problem, noone is jelaous, I like some Turkish players a lot and wish them all the best, they seem to be very good and well raised boys, how someone could wish them something bad if you speak about Furkan or Cedi for example? This kids are angels, it's visible in their faces.

Personally I wouldn't even follow the tournament if we naturalize a player and to me it's not important if it's some friend of Jokic or Bogdanovic from their NBA teams or some player from lower tier leagues in Serbia. We are very bad in football and what should we do now? Of course work better, try harder. That's it. Do you really want to tell me that it's the same for your if an American plays for you or a Turk? Really? Why we have national teams competitions then?

Anyways, good luck. Turkey is always interesting to watch.

PS: I just thought that maybe we are raised different in this opinion, in your country football is sport number one, here and in Lithuania it is not. I think I understand how Lithuanians watch about their national team because I spoke with them at big competitions when I met their fans and the view is the same as here. It's simply impossible. People would not accept it.

I respect your opinion, and I specifically mentioned Lithuanians and Serbians, the only places where basketball is bigger than football, so I can somewhat tolerate it when you aren’t fond of this rule... but my problem is that this rule is completely fair, every country has a right to practice it, and there is a logical limit of only 1 player. You just CHOOSE not to use it. I do not understand why people are so confrontational about something that is merely a choice. It’s not a new rule, so going round in circles with criticism is futile. Our federation and people (as for the majority of Fiba members) don’t share this stance of yours. You’re the minority with this opinion, so you can’t expect people to move according to how you feel about it.

But you also need to realize what I said before is true. The best team in your league, Zvezda, doesnt have a Larkin level player who enjoys the sympathy of the entire country. Imagine if it did, and this player would publicly recruit himself for the Serbian national team, do you really think all Serbians would be against it? I doubt it. There is a difference between seeking a naturalization who doesn’t even live in your country, or accepting one who gives this desire himself. You cant compare Randolph to Larkin. We arent out on the market desperately looking to find foreigners, but when the situation develops in such a way I am more than happy to comply. I dont need to explain that I sympathize with players like Furkan ofcourse, that should be obvious from my profile, but Larkin is there to complement Furkan, not to take his place. We have already lost 2 quality NBA level players to politics and disease (Kanter and Asik). Our entire center rotation is near extinct. We are unlucky in this regard, but when a character like Larkin is available, he’s welcome.

[Furkan Korkmaz]

Is Turkey paying Larkin for his services? Do you think they offered more or less than Croatia?

I think what unsettles people are these very unnatural naturalizations where the player has very little to do with its new nation. I understand the naturalization of someone who had parents or grandparents from the country. Per perhaps have a wife and kids of that nationality and been living there for many years. This just comes across as outright mercenarial. More Andre Blatche type purchasing of players.

It is what it is - legal within FIBAs rules, but somewhat makes a mockery of the rule. And frankly I kind of support it for weaker basketball nations to help level the playing field. Perhaps Canada should purchase Pascal Siakam? Unfortunately the citizenship process in Canada is not governed by a dictator with a magic wand.

Larkin was not in active talks with the Croatian federation, a Croatian interviewer just asked him if hypothetically he would like to play for Croatia. Larkin said he was open for the idea, but then quickly started flirting with the Turkish national team after Turkish interviewers opened the topic of his willingness to play on an NT. He made it clear that he had a strong preference for Turkey. There was no such thing as a bid war, Larkin lives in Turkey and naturally choose us over Croatia. Croatia also tried, but they never stood a chance.

And yes it is easier to get a Turkish citizenship than a Canadian one, but this also counts for regular people who apply. The process can be significantly sped up if you have someone with high government function, the president of our basketball federation Turkoglu is a sports advisor for the government, Turkey is not as bureaucratic as Canada, but Turkey also is not a dictatorship, save those those cheap rhetorics for someone else. If you dont take it for my word simply have a look at the International democracy index. We’re way above the dictatorship line, unlike our neighbors in Armenia or big countries like Russia and China. How strange that people cant live without calling the Turkish president a dictator, but for some reason are quiet when it comes to other, actual dictators, like the Chinese president.

[Katastroika]

I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.

[mojo13]

Larkin was not in active talks with the Croatian federation, a Croatian interviewer just asked him if hypothetically he would like to play for Croatia. Larkin said he was open for the idea, but then quickly started flirting with the Turkish national team after Turkish interviewers opened the topic of his willingness to play on an NT. He made it clear that he had a strong preference for Turkey. There was no such thing as a bid war, Larkin lives in Turkey and naturally choose us over Croatia. Croatia also tried, but they never stood a chance.

And yes it is easier to get a Turkish citizenship than a Canadian one, but this also counts for regular people who apply. The process can be significantly sped up if you have someone with high government function, the president of our basketball federation Turkoglu is a sports advisor for the government, Turkey is not as bureaucratic as Canada, but Turkey also is not a dictatorship, save those those cheap rhetorics for someone else. If you dont take it for my word simply have a look at the International democracy index. We’re way above the dictatorship line, unlike our neighbors in Armenia or big countries like Russia and China. How strange that people cant live without calling the Turkish president a dictator, but for some reason are quiet when it comes to other, actual dictators, like the Chinese president.

Thanks for point out that democracy index it is a pretty cool tool - and I will certainly not defend China or Russia...far, far from it.

It does seem Turkey is above the line barely. Looks like the cutoff is 4.0 and Turkey is 4.09 on a 10 point scale. Not "way above the dictatorship line" by any means but technically you are correct (110th out of 167 countries). But I wouldn't consider my comment cheap rhetoric either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Regardless - my apologies to go down that path, Turkey is a beautiful country and from an outsiders perspective with limited knowledge its regrettable is see Turkey's path away from democracy over the last decade, but this also hold true with far too many countries in this day of age.

But I don't think any of us are really here to talk politics....so moving on.



Back to the topics- what does Larkin do for Turkey's chances? How much of an improvement is this? What are your realistic expectations for Turkey vs Canada, Czechia and Greece? I suppose Canada is still too unknown to realistically consider.

[mojo13]

I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.

I am not sure I like the "fairness" of the naturalization rule. Yes, anyone is technically allowed do it, but in practice it is far, far more easy for countries that have certain levels of domestic leagues where the talent pool sits as well as countries with looser citizenship rules and regulations. It is very, very difficult for some countries to naturalize a player, if not impossible.

Many years ago Canada Basketball tried very hard to get Matt Bonner naturalized. His wife was a Canadian, he had Canadian grandparents, a Canadian child and had lived many years in Canada. But for whatever the rules were, he was not allowed Canadian citizenship. I think the hang up was he had to have lived 5 uninterrupted years straight in Canada without leaving for more than a few weeks - or something else quite strict like that.

[Furkan Korkmaz]

I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.

Well you must hold into account you can never be sure when circumstances change There are many factors. The reason I spoke about people crying or jealousy for example wasn’t because of what guys like you say, but the hypocrisy I noticed in general. I have seen Greeks complain about Larkin for example, but in the meantime in their most popular sport, football, there is a Portuguese player at the starting 11. These same people also used to call France and USA “Africa” everytime they competed, but now suddenly, since they got an African immigrant turn into an NBA star, take a whole different stance. People will claim “A” but when the circumstances change suddenly turn “B”. Serbia has a great team, doesnt really need naturalization, but imagine if the circumstances were severely different, how can you guarantee anything? Anyway this is why I think this discussion doesnt have much use, I dont like hypocrisy from people who use naturalized players themselves but only cry about others just for the sake of crying, but you aren’t one of those guys so I respect your opinion but politely disagree that’s all. Cheers to you aswell.

[Toruko]

Turkey was without Larkin and a true play maker (Berk Ugurlu got injured before the tournament started) and without Wilbekin (played injured in the second game) the fifth best offensive team in the tournament with 87 Points average per game. Turkeys main Scorer (3 guys) Melih Mahmutoglu (one of the best shooters in Europe), Furkan Korkmaz and Ersan Ilyasova are very very potent scorers who can create their own shots. With Larkins penetratings it will be very easy for these guys to score and this will be the main task of Larkin. In crunch times Larkin, Korkmaz and Ilyasova can take the responsibility.

I think the options will be like:

1. scoring option Furkan Korkmaz
2. Shane Larkin
3. Ersan Ilyasova
4. Cedi Osman

This is without a doubt the best offensive team (except Canada) in the tournament. Open shots for them will open up much space for Larkin as well.

The problem of Turkey was always the defense. Nearly all turkish player were/are horrible defenders except Ersan Ilyasova and Cedi Osman. Especially Furkan Korkmaz was a horrible really horrible defender but this season he turned to a bearable player on the defensive end in the nba. This is promising.

The next question mark is our 21 year old nba draft ncaa prospect Omer Yurtseven. Can do everything on the offensive end. (shoots the three, very solid midranger, half hook etc.) who is definitely a power up against old man Semih Erden who was horrible during the wc. He is not a great defender but he is a real seven footer so he will give rebounding and better rim protection.

In addition all the young prospects of turkey reached a age where they can contribute in Eurocup level. This gives better bench power.

Premised all players come without an injury czechs are not a problem at all. The same goes for Greece without Giannis. With Giannis it should be a 50/50 thing. It means Greek defense and experience against turkish power and speed. Greece is in addition the team with the better chemistry since they have been playing for a long time together. Turkey wont have the time for a long preparation.

[Furkan Korkmaz]

Thanks for point out that democracy index it is a pretty cool tool - and I will certainly not defend China or Russia...far, far from it.

It does seem Turkey is above the line barely. Looks like the cutoff is 4.0 and Turkey is 4.09 on a 10 point scale. Not "way above the dictatorship line" by any means but technically you are correct (110th out of 167 countries). But I wouldn't consider my comment cheap rhetoric either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Regardless - my apologies to go down that path, Turkey is a beautiful country and from an outsiders perspective with limited knowledge its regrettable is see Turkey's path away from democracy over the last decade, but this also hold true with far too many countries in this day of age.

But I don't think any of us are really here to talk politics....so moving on.



Back to the topics- what does Larkin do for Turkey's chances? How much of an improvement is this? What are your realistic expectations for Turkey vs Canada, Czechia and Greece? I suppose Canada is still too unknown to realistically consider.

What Larkin does? Well even without Larkin Turkey has a pretty good team, let me first say that. You could see that in our match against the USA. But Turkey has no decent point guards AND no centers. We used to have NBA centers but lost them like I mentioned before. This fact makes Turkey vulnerable and inconsistent. Look, the Czech have a good team, but it’s nowhere near as competitive as ours can be. We just wasted our energy on the USA and didn’t overcome the mental letdown in time. We let the Czech talls (a position where we are limited) abuse us. But last year we played the Czech in a friendly tournament in Germany. It was the final. The Czech had Vesely and still lost to us double digits. We didnt even have a naturalized player here. This was even before Wilbekin. Larkin is the best player in Europe right now, and since we have nobodu close to his level in this position he adds a whole new dimension to this already decent team. Then there’s also some talented centers coming up, like Yurtseven who you might already see in Canada, and on the longer run guys like Bona and Sengun. There is no USA to drag us down in Canada, Turkey will win the first round group easy, and if Giannis doesn’t show up, will also be the heavy favorite against Greece. Canada if coming with a full squad however is still too much for Turkey, I give us 30% chance against you.... on a good day you never know. Without Larkin I give us only 5% chance, this is what Larkin adds to Turkey...

As for the off topic Democracy index rating, it was actually ranked way above 5, it seems we dropped a bit. I know what must be the cause, but like you said I’m not here to discuss politics. We are a flawed democracy, sure, but certainly is not a dictatorship. Our president just enjoys cult status popularity from the poor regions that developed under his term, which makes him act spoilt. That’s all.