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Thread: 2020 Olympic Qualifying Tournaments

  1. #201

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    I'm Lithuanian, dude. I have no business to support Greece. It's simply my opinion of your group's power rankings.
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  2. #202
    Junior Member Furkan Korkmaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    I'm Lithuanian, dude. I have no business to support Greece. It's simply my opinion of your group's power rankings.
    It would help then if you add your country’s flag, I have mistaken you for a Greek. Anyway, if you’re not Greek it further proves the likelihood of your opinion being based on too many surface observations. If you have followed these teams you’d see Turkey’s key players are mostly young and have room for improvement, Greece keeps relying on a very old and washed up core or 30+ers, and they couldn’t even beat Brazil. What makes you think now 1 year later they’re suddenly going to put up a fight against even Canada?

    Maybe you are too effected by their good performance against Lithuania in the Euros..but that was an exception not their standard...(but even that team was in a better shape than the one they will come to the Olympic Q’s with).
    Last edited by Furkan Korkmaz; 12-01-2019 at 11:50 PM.

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Furkan Korkmaz View Post
    It would help then if you add your country’s flag, I have mistaken you for a Greek. Anyway, if you’re not Greek it further proves the likelihood of your opinion being based on too many surface observations. If you have followed these teams you’d see Turkey’s key players are mostly young and have room for improvement, Greece keeps relying on a very old and washed up core or 30+ers, and they couldn’t even beat Brazil. What makes you think now 1 year later they’re suddenly going to put up a fight against even Canada?
    Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I think they will. FOA, they will figure it out how to use Giannis better which indicated all sort of problems and identity crisis. They have to find ways to get all Giannis, Sloukas, Calathes to get the best of playing together. SOA, Sloukas is their best guard scorer and he had injuries before WC thus was without proper preparation and was out of shape to some degree. Brothers are growing players, Papagianis is growing player. Brazil didn't suck in WC.

    Turkey was also swept by Chezch Rep and lost to New Zealand, but you don't think Turkey is some trash team because of that. I never said Turkey is a bad team, but I'm not a favourite of the style you played in WC, shots were being jacked too liberally, to quickly. Too much forced plays and no proper PG who could control the tempo and give identity. I know you have talent and more is coming, you have good youngsters, but it will take time. I'm not a big specialist of Turkish BB, so take it as an outsiders opinion, I surely didn't mean do disrespect your NT, you can be sure about that.
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  4. #204
    Junior Member Furkan Korkmaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I think they will. FOA, they will figure it out how to use Giannis better which indicated all sort of problems and identity crisis. They have to find ways to get all Giannis, Sloukas, Calathes to get the best of playing together. SOA, Sloukas is their best guard scorer and he had injuries before WC thus was without proper preparation and was out of shape to some degree. Brothers are growing players, Papagianis is growing player. Brazil didn't suck in WC.

    Turkey was also swept by Chezch Rep and lost to New Zealand, but you don't think Turkey is some trash team because of that. I never said Turkey is a bad team, but I'm not a favourite of the style you played in WC, shots were being jacked too liberally, to quickly. Too much forced plays and no proper PG who could control the tempo and give identity. I know you have talent and more is coming, you have good youngsters, but it will take time. I'm not a big specialist of Turkish BB, so take it as an outsiders opinion, I surely didn't mean do disrespect your NT, you can be sure about that.
    The Czech were overall very consistent, they ended above Lithuania too you know, however our mentality was fragile after we ruined our chances against the USA, we played our worst game against the Czech mostly for that reason. I know had this match come before the Americans we would beat the Czech, like we did last year in this tournament in Germany. The Czech were also quite good there, even had Vesely, but lost to us in the final.
    Forget New Zealand, both Ilyasova and Korkmaz were out that game, even one of our centers was injured. It’s not a proper indicative match.

    “They will use giannis better” is really nothing more than a hypothesis, what if Giannis is this perpetually limited player? Giannis will be playing in the NBA untill mid june, you think he will even have time to prepare with his team and new coach? The reason they cannot use Giannis is because they don’t have shooters around him, and giannis himself admit to feeling trapped in fiba style basketball, this isn’t about how he is used. This is about his playstyle, and this wont change in a matter of practices.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Because officials realised he can ball and thus decided to give him the citizenship status of the Polis?
    Exactly, he became from being an illegal immigrant to successor of leonidas the great over night.

    Ok, enough of this trolling. Everyone needs to draw the red line for himself. Fact is Fiba gives opportunity for one naturalized player. I dont like it too but most of the countries uses this possibility and Greece will too in the future. My red line is as long as the player is your product and presents the game of your basketball culture everything is ok.

    About the upcomming game between Greece and Turkey and the future. Turkey is still in a generational change and of course very young. It has very promising young players who will be added in the future. And the same process awaits greece and Giannis is a luck for them because they couldnt raise any prospect who could take over the inheritance of the pick and role guys from the top Diamantidis, Papaloukas and Spanoulis and there are really few guys who could make the jump in pro business. I like for instance Karampelas very much, Tsoumanis also Kalaitzakis who made the jump in the right time and also Rogkavopoulos.

    The turkish prospects are bigger from the number and look at the tournament rankings also more talented guys. On the other hand turkey is the best country to waste talents but there is at least hope and they definitely learned from their mistakes.

    Both teams turkey as well as Greece has weaknesses and advantages. Greece has more experience for sure and has been playing together for years right now. Turkey has some NBA player who start to prosper in the nba right now. Furkan Korkmaz for example takes 25 minutes with a title contender in the nba. A great scorer who needs to add at least 10 more pounds, Cedi is a great allrounder who was really out of shape during the wc. He cant do anything great but there is also nothing he cant do on the court except defending all positions from 1-4 plus scottie wilbekin who was injured in the start of the wc. He is one of the best shooting scorer in europe right now. Melih Mahmutoglu the same although his ability is more limited compared to Korkmaz or Wilbekin. Not to forget Ilyasova who is a exceptional shooting big with very good position knowledge and intelligence to defend very well on nba level. When you guys take a look at the results in the wc you will see that there is no problem with scoring.

    The weaknesses are unfortunately where we were the strongest in early days. Semih Erden who is absolutely not willing to play serious basketball is our starting big right now. The positive think in comparison to the wc he was injured and our second center Sertac Sanli started to contribute with efes in Euroleague. In addition to that we have also a 98 born first round draftee big Ömer Yurtseven, slow footed seven footer whos strength his offensive versatility is. For the guys who questioned him... he is nba ready and could without doubt deliver in euroleague double digits.

    I cant say which side will have the upper hand. With Giannis Greece will have a small advantage but the trend is clear... starting with this tournament Turkey will get stronger each year and greece will lose power and for the guys who used to accuse me to hate greece or greeks it is really my objective thoughts. Nothing else. I am a diamantidis lover for example.

  6. #206
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    And there is no better use for Giannis in international games. He is quite limited if you block the paint what will be happen all the time because nobody will let him speed up. The only way to use him offensively is just making some shots.

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Furkan Korkmaz View Post
    “They will use giannis better” is really nothing more than a hypothesis, what if Giannis is this perpetually limited player? Giannis will be playing in the NBA untill mid june, you think he will even have time to prepare with his team and new coach? The reason they cannot use Giannis is because they don’t have shooters around him, and giannis himself admit to feeling trapped in fiba style basketball, this isn’t about how he is used. This is about his playstyle, and this wont change in a matter of practices.
    Never judge the team from one tournament. Greece was third in three pts % in Eurobasket 2017. Sloukas was shooting 58.6%. In 2019 WC Greece really shot the ball worse than they can. Look at EL season, Papanicolaou 42.9%, Papapetrou 45.9%, Calathes 43.2%, Sloukas 40.6%. Even Giannis slowly improve his shooting, his brother can shoot. There's little doubt Greece will shoot better. If they will click, they still are legit FIBA power.
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  8. #208
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    Can you explain why he got his passport a couple years ago then?
    Well that's something I'm totally against it, every kid born and raised here should be able to have the passport.

    But let's not forget what Turkey has done with Ilyasova who faked his age, name and nationality or the likes of Ermal Kuqo, Mirsad Jahovic and recently Tarik Biberovic and Adem Bona. Non of them where either born or raised in Turkey. Not to mention Dixon, Preldizc and Wilbekin. Not connected to Turkey by birth or roots.

    Talking about roots get a look to which language is Hedo Turkoglu fluent btw. In order to help you recently a Bosnian friend on mine told me Turkey offered 1 million dollars to Dzanan Musa when he was younger in order to play for them. They got Biberovic instead.
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  9. #209
    Senior Member R1ou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I think they will. FOA, they will figure it out how to use Giannis better which indicated all sort of problems and identity crisis. They have to find ways to get all Giannis, Sloukas, Calathes to get the best of playing together. SOA, Sloukas is their best guard scorer and he had injuries before WC thus was without proper preparation and was out of shape to some degree. Brothers are growing players, Papagianis is growing player. Brazil didn't suck in WC.

    Turkey was also swept by Chezch Rep and lost to New Zealand, but you don't think Turkey is some trash team because of that. I never said Turkey is a bad team, but I'm not a favourite of the style you played in WC, shots were being jacked too liberally, to quickly. Too much forced plays and no proper PG who could control the tempo and give identity. I know you have talent and more is coming, you have good youngsters, but it will take time. I'm not a big specialist of Turkish BB, so take it as an outsiders opinion, I surely didn't mean do disrespect your NT, you can be sure about that.
    As I said earlier there's simply not enough objectivity amongst some guys. Turkey might have 2 victories out of the last 20 against Greece, not more quality neither the home court advantage to favor them. First goal should be to take the revenge against the Czechf for them.
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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    Well that's something I'm totally against it, every kid born and raised here should be able to have the passport.

    But let's not forget what Turkey has done with Ilyasova who faked his age, name and nationality or the likes of Ermal Kuqo, Mirsad Jahovic and recently Tarik Biberovic and Adem Bona. Non of them where either born or raised in Turkey. Not to mention Dixon, Preldizc and Wilbekin. Not connected to Turkey by birth or roots.

    Talking about roots get a look to which language is Hedo Turkoglu fluent btw. In order to help you recently a Bosnian friend on mine told me Turkey offered 1 million dollars to Dzanan Musa when he was younger in order to play for them. They got Biberovic instead.
    Being born in a country doesnt make you citizen of that country. I am also not born in Turkey. Am I not a Turk now? Everyone can decide the rules for himself when to count a player his or her. Ilyasova is a Tatar from Usbekistan which is a turkic tribe, same goes to Yurt who is just born there.

    Another part are the bosniaks. They feel connected to turkey because of having family in turkey, because of religion and historical connection. Hedo Turkoglu, Mirsad Türkcan are just two of many guys and i can assure you that Turkoglus bosniak language knowledge is quite rudimentary.

    The information about Dzanan Musa is correct. He was offered to play for Turkey before he started to play his first U16 game but Biberovic was not asked. He decided not to play for Bosnia by himself due to a better perspective etc. His father wanted also that he plays for Turkey. Adem Bona has been developing in Turkey, so I count him as a turkish product. He and the Antetokoumpos differ nothing so being born somewhere means nothing. Both are nigerian rooted greeks or turk who got their basketball education in different countries.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    As I said earlier there's simply not enough objectivity amongst some guys. Turkey might have 2 victories out of the last 20 against Greece, not more quality neither the home court advantage to favor them. First goal should be to take the revenge against the Czechf for them.
    The past situation doesnt say anything about the current situation. Greece was a powerhouse earlier and always respected. Today, its just an old ,averagely skilled team that nobody has to fear. The sad thing is that you wont be able to substitute your losses in the following years. There are a couple of guys who could play at that level and they dont play much.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1ou View Post
    Well that's something I'm totally against it, every kid born and raised here should be able to have the passport.

    But let's not forget what Turkey has done with Ilyasova who faked his age, name and nationality or the likes of Ermal Kuqo, Mirsad Jahovic and recently Tarik Biberovic and Adem Bona. Non of them where either born or raised in Turkey. Not to mention Dixon, Preldizc and Wilbekin. Not connected to Turkey by birth or roots.

    Talking about roots get a look to which language is Hedo Turkoglu fluent btw. In order to help you recently a Bosnian friend on mine told me Turkey offered 1 million dollars to Dzanan Musa when he was younger in order to play for them. They got Biberovic instead.
    You beat me to it.

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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    You beat me to it.

    Respect to Cro, Srb and Lith who never used naturalised players.
    Croatia had couple of them: Draper, Lafayette. Probably only Lithuania and Serbia didn't. Maybe some China too, they were quite strict what comes to naturalization, at least what comes to bball and football, but with latter they broke that rule and naturalized Brazilian Elkeson lately, not sure about bball, don't remember such case.
    Overall naturalization has been hot topic over the years and everyone has own opinion. I hate it, unless player is born in that country or was born to parents (or one parent) living abroad, maybe I can go to grandparents at most here, anything else is just cheating and not how national teams competition should look like. With "cheating" I don't blame federations, which takes advantage out of rules, but FIBA itself for allowing it. But again, it's very subjective


  14. #214
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    Being born in a country doesnt make you citizen of that country. I am also not born in Turkey. Am I not a Turk now? Everyone can decide the rules for himself when to count a player his or her. Ilyasova is a Tatar from Usbekistan which is a turkic tribe, same goes to Yurt who is just born there.

    Another part are the bosniaks. They feel connected to turkey because of having family in turkey, because of religion and historical connection. Hedo Turkoglu, Mirsad Türkcan are just two of many guys and i can assure you that Turkoglus bosniak language knowledge is quite rudimentary.

    The information about Dzanan Musa is correct. He was offered to play for Turkey before he started to play his first U16 game but Biberovic was not asked. He decided not to play for Bosnia by himself due to a better perspective etc. His father wanted also that he plays for Turkey. Adem Bona has been developing in Turkey, so I count him as a turkish product. He and the Antetokoumpos differ nothing so being born somewhere means nothing. Both are nigerian rooted greeks or turk who got their basketball education in different countries.
    There needs to be a line somewhere; being a member of a Turkic tribe, or having warm feelings towards Turkey does not cut it. Ilyasova, Mirsad, Kuqo, Dal, Pars, Preldzic, Dixon, Wilbekin, etc etc are all welcome from my personal point of view to become a Turkish citizen, some of them have chosen Turkey not only for professional reasons, but they are all naturalized players, and FIBA should count them within the limitation of the rule (Same thing with ancestry rules of Calathes, Kaman, etc.)

    Turkoglu, Okur, Mahmutoglu etc are Turkish, period. Their grand-grand-grand parents were Bosnian, but they are all as Turkish as Larry Bird is American.

    Kanter, Yurtseven, etc are Turkish players born to Turkish parents abroad.

    Adem Bona case is cheating in a way, which will probably be the hot topic here in a few years, just wait .
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    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Having quickly browsing the thread, I was not surprised to see, sadly, the same old/same old thrash talk.

    I really don't know what to expect from our team, nor from the other teams in the group. Czechs showed us and everyone else how dangerous they can be, Canada always excites first but then deflates 1 week before the tournament, Greece has not been able to do anything in ages, Turkey is a team of bunch of nobodies + 2-3 decent guys who cannot make FTs. That's a recipe for an exciting tournament. My guess is we're not making it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    There needs to be a line somewhere; being a member of a Turkic tribe, or having warm feelings towards Turkey does not cut it. Ilyasova, Mirsad, Kuqo, Dal, Pars, Preldzic, Dixon, Wilbekin, etc etc are all welcome from my personal point of view to become a Turkish citizen, some of them have chosen Turkey not only for professional reasons, but they are all naturalized players, and FIBA should count them within the limitation of the rule (Same thing with ancestry rules of Calathes, Kaman, etc.)

    Turkoglu, Okur, Mahmutoglu etc are Turkish, period. Their grand-grand-grand parents were Bosnian, but they are all as Turkish as Larry Bird is American.

    Kanter, Yurtseven, etc are Turkish players born to Turkish parents abroad.

    Adem Bona case is cheating in a way, which will probably be the hot topic here in a few years, just wait .
    There is no cheating if you dont play against the rules. Almost every nt used naturalized player or "cheated" in a way. Take Mirotic or Ibaka for Spain, Randolph for Slovenia and also Greece was trying to get Pokusevski or Vukcevic. You are either attractive to player or not, thats the main line of this story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    I hope this was an attempt at humor. If not here’s a little exercise for you, list their statistics in the NBA during that season and now and let me know what results you find.
    Humor? Why? If 9 of 12 players are playing in the NBA, it is a team formed with NBA players. As much as they are the 14th or 15th player of their respective team.

    Before the tournament began, people said that the Canadian team was going to win every game by a margin of 20 points. They were going to the Olympic games walking through the opponents.

    Apparently, just having players in the NBA made Canada an elite team ...

    About your query, it is not necessary to do it. Of those players, those who continue to play in the NBA, surely improved their numbers. Logically, the team of the following year will be a team with more experience than in 2015.

    But that is no guarantee of anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juli_rc View Post
    Humor? Why? If 9 of 12 players are playing in the NBA, it is a team formed with NBA players. As much as they are the 14th or 15th player of their respective team.

    Before the tournament began, people said that the Canadian team was going to win every game by a margin of 20 points. They were going to the Olympic games walking through the opponents.

    Apparently, just having players in the NBA made Canada an elite team ...

    About your query, it is not necessary to do it. Of those players, those who continue to play in the NBA, surely improved their numbers. Logically, the team of the following year will be a team with more experience than in 2015.

    But that is no guarantee of anything.
    Even if they are just bench guys in the nba, they are elite in euroleague. Just look at Larkin, Wanamaker etc. You play every second day a 48 minutes game, get used to crunch times, work on your body permanently and your individual skills... The only thing what make you worse with many NBA players is team chemistry and not clear definitions of the roles. Roles are the most important thing in basketball.

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    It's not that easy.

    I think that there is no clear answer to the question if a rotation player in NBA is more valuable for his national team than a leader in Euroleague. Also the conception of Euroleague teams is sometimes likely to be mistaken for analysis. We discussed Micic's case quite well the last time. Also I think that Jokic's case shows that sometimes NBA superstars are not that valuable in FIBA (other way around).

    The most important thing in FIBA basketball is DEFENSE - DEFENSE and DEFENSE in tournaments - and especially in tournaments like this where you have literally 3 do or die games (at least 2)! And it will stay like this forever. And that's where we have to see if Canada can compete with Greece, Czech Republic and improved Turkey. In Victoria I expect games with results like 65-64 and 70 - 68 from semis further upcoming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    It's not that easy.

    I think that there is no clear answer to the question if a rotation player in NBA is more valuable for his national team than a leader in Euroleague. Also the conception of Euroleague teams is sometimes likely to be mistaken for analysis. We discussed Micic's case quite well the last time. Also I think that Jokic's case shows that sometimes NBA superstars are not that valuable in FIBA (other way around).

    The most important thing in FIBA basketball is DEFENSE - DEFENSE and DEFENSE in tournaments - and especially in tournaments like this where you have literally 3 do or die games (at least 2)! And it will stay like this forever. And that's where we have to see if Canada can compete with Greece, Czech Republic and improved Turkey. In Victoria I expect games with results like 65-64 and 70 - 68 from semis further upcoming.
    You are at least a rotation player in the nba if you are elite in Euroleague.

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