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Thread: 2020 Olympic Qualifying Tournaments

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    You can have many naturalized player but only one can play. Having more than one gives you a certain flexibility if one gets injured
    I was referring to fact that many (maybe most) countries don’t have a single naturalized player if you look at things globally.
    Were there more than 2 or 3 total in the Top 10 at the WC? More than 4 or 5 in the Top 20? I don’t know - just going off of recall here, and I don’t remember too many. I’m disputing the comment that “everyone does this” and it is actually more in the minority. Maybe I am wrong....

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo13 View Post
    I was referring to fact that many (maybe most) countries don’t have a single naturalized player if you look at things globally.
    Were there more than 2 or 3 total in the Top 10 at the WC? More than 4 or 5 in the Top 20? I don’t know - just going off of recall here, and I don’t remember too many. I’m disputing the comment that “everyone does this” and it is actually more in the minority. Maybe I am wrong....
    I got you know. Well Spain had in the last decade one of the best european teams of all time and it didnt prevent them to naturalize Mirotic and Ibaka. I hadnt head any objections back then.

  3. #323

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    I'm not Lithuanian but we have simmilar views so I feel free to tell it from Serbian perspective. I think that Serbian federation would have all possible chances for taking a high quality player like Larkin. Larkin wanted to play for Croatia for example first but their president avoided direct negotiations. It's a state of principle. In Serbia some players even directly said that they wouldn't participate any more in national team actions if some Americans would play for us. The basketball national team is viewed as some kind of masterpiece of Serbian sport, maybe more, some thing that has been created for generations now - something cultural, spiritual, mysthical.

    I don't think anyone is crying, there is also no problem, noone is jelaous, I like some Turkish players a lot and wish them all the best, they seem to be very good and well raised boys, how someone could wish them something bad if you speak about Furkan or Cedi for example? This kids are angels, it's visible in their faces.

    Personally I wouldn't even follow the tournament if we naturalize a player and to me it's not important if it's some friend of Jokic or Bogdanovic from their NBA teams or some player from lower tier leagues in Serbia. We are very bad in football and what should we do now? Of course work better, try harder. That's it. Do you really want to tell me that it's the same for your if an American plays for you or a Turk? Really? Why we have national teams competitions then?

    Anyways, good luck. Turkey is always interesting to watch.

    PS: I just thought that maybe we are raised different in this opinion, in your country football is sport number one, here and in Lithuania it is not. I think I understand how Lithuanians watch about their national team because I spoke with them at big competitions when I met their fans and the view is the same as here. It's simply impossible. People would not accept it.

    I respect your opinion, and I specifically mentioned Lithuanians and Serbians, the only places where basketball is bigger than football, so I can somewhat tolerate it when you aren’t fond of this rule... but my problem is that this rule is completely fair, every country has a right to practice it, and there is a logical limit of only 1 player. You just CHOOSE not to use it. I do not understand why people are so confrontational about something that is merely a choice. It’s not a new rule, so going round in circles with criticism is futile. Our federation and people (as for the majority of Fiba members) don’t share this stance of yours. You’re the minority with this opinion, so you can’t expect people to move according to how you feel about it.

    But you also need to realize what I said before is true. The best team in your league, Zvezda, doesnt have a Larkin level player who enjoys the sympathy of the entire country. Imagine if it did, and this player would publicly recruit himself for the Serbian national team, do you really think all Serbians would be against it? I doubt it. There is a difference between seeking a naturalization who doesn’t even live in your country, or accepting one who gives this desire himself. You cant compare Randolph to Larkin. We arent out on the market desperately looking to find foreigners, but when the situation develops in such a way I am more than happy to comply. I dont need to explain that I sympathize with players like Furkan ofcourse, that should be obvious from my profile, but Larkin is there to complement Furkan, not to take his place. We have already lost 2 quality NBA level players to politics and disease (Kanter and Asik). Our entire center rotation is near extinct. We are unlucky in this regard, but when a character like Larkin is available, he’s welcome.

  4. #324

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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo13 View Post
    Is Turkey paying Larkin for his services? Do you think they offered more or less than Croatia?

    I think what unsettles people are these very unnatural naturalizations where the player has very little to do with its new nation. I understand the naturalization of someone who had parents or grandparents from the country. Per perhaps have a wife and kids of that nationality and been living there for many years. This just comes across as outright mercenarial. More Andre Blatche type purchasing of players.

    It is what it is - legal within FIBAs rules, but somewhat makes a mockery of the rule. And frankly I kind of support it for weaker basketball nations to help level the playing field. Perhaps Canada should purchase Pascal Siakam? Unfortunately the citizenship process in Canada is not governed by a dictator with a magic wand.
    Larkin was not in active talks with the Croatian federation, a Croatian interviewer just asked him if hypothetically he would like to play for Croatia. Larkin said he was open for the idea, but then quickly started flirting with the Turkish national team after Turkish interviewers opened the topic of his willingness to play on an NT. He made it clear that he had a strong preference for Turkey. There was no such thing as a bid war, Larkin lives in Turkey and naturally choose us over Croatia. Croatia also tried, but they never stood a chance.

    And yes it is easier to get a Turkish citizenship than a Canadian one, but this also counts for regular people who apply. The process can be significantly sped up if you have someone with high government function, the president of our basketball federation Turkoglu is a sports advisor for the government, Turkey is not as bureaucratic as Canada, but Turkey also is not a dictatorship, save those those cheap rhetorics for someone else. If you dont take it for my word simply have a look at the International democracy index. We’re way above the dictatorship line, unlike our neighbors in Armenia or big countries like Russia and China. How strange that people cant live without calling the Turkish president a dictator, but for some reason are quiet when it comes to other, actual dictators, like the Chinese president.

  5. #325
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    I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

    I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furkan Korkmaz View Post
    Larkin was not in active talks with the Croatian federation, a Croatian interviewer just asked him if hypothetically he would like to play for Croatia. Larkin said he was open for the idea, but then quickly started flirting with the Turkish national team after Turkish interviewers opened the topic of his willingness to play on an NT. He made it clear that he had a strong preference for Turkey. There was no such thing as a bid war, Larkin lives in Turkey and naturally choose us over Croatia. Croatia also tried, but they never stood a chance.

    And yes it is easier to get a Turkish citizenship than a Canadian one, but this also counts for regular people who apply. The process can be significantly sped up if you have someone with high government function, the president of our basketball federation Turkoglu is a sports advisor for the government, Turkey is not as bureaucratic as Canada, but Turkey also is not a dictatorship, save those those cheap rhetorics for someone else. If you dont take it for my word simply have a look at the International democracy index. We’re way above the dictatorship line, unlike our neighbors in Armenia or big countries like Russia and China. How strange that people cant live without calling the Turkish president a dictator, but for some reason are quiet when it comes to other, actual dictators, like the Chinese president.
    Thanks for point out that democracy index it is a pretty cool tool - and I will certainly not defend China or Russia...far, far from it.

    It does seem Turkey is above the line barely. Looks like the cutoff is 4.0 and Turkey is 4.09 on a 10 point scale. Not "way above the dictatorship line" by any means but technically you are correct (110th out of 167 countries). But I wouldn't consider my comment cheap rhetoric either.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

    Regardless - my apologies to go down that path, Turkey is a beautiful country and from an outsiders perspective with limited knowledge its regrettable is see Turkey's path away from democracy over the last decade, but this also hold true with far too many countries in this day of age.

    But I don't think any of us are really here to talk politics....so moving on.



    Back to the topics- what does Larkin do for Turkey's chances? How much of an improvement is this? What are your realistic expectations for Turkey vs Canada, Czechia and Greece? I suppose Canada is still too unknown to realistically consider.

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

    I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.


    I am not sure I like the "fairness" of the naturalization rule. Yes, anyone is technically allowed do it, but in practice it is far, far more easy for countries that have certain levels of domestic leagues where the talent pool sits as well as countries with looser citizenship rules and regulations. It is very, very difficult for some countries to naturalize a player, if not impossible.

    Many years ago Canada Basketball tried very hard to get Matt Bonner naturalized. His wife was a Canadian, he had Canadian grandparents, a Canadian child and had lived many years in Canada. But for whatever the rules were, he was not allowed Canadian citizenship. I think the hang up was he had to have lived 5 uninterrupted years straight in Canada without leaving for more than a few weeks - or something else quite strict like that.

  8. #328

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    I can guarantee you that Serbia wouldn't naturalize players and as I told you it's not about quality (well, it's very hard that a whole country here loves a player, unfortunately we are very divided between two teams and even if Michael Jordan personally would be reborn in Partizan 60% of the country would hate him - I don't like it, but just to set things clear). If you remember Bo McCaleb's season when he brought Partizan to the Final 4 it wasn't even in discussion and he was that much dominant that year that he was surely the best guard who was available this year. Instead Serbia chose to play with Teodosic. And trusted him. And it proved quite good.

    I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.

    Well you must hold into account you can never be sure when circumstances change There are many factors. The reason I spoke about people crying or jealousy for example wasn’t because of what guys like you say, but the hypocrisy I noticed in general. I have seen Greeks complain about Larkin for example, but in the meantime in their most popular sport, football, there is a Portuguese player at the starting 11. These same people also used to call France and USA “Africa” everytime they competed, but now suddenly, since they got an African immigrant turn into an NBA star, take a whole different stance. People will claim “A” but when the circumstances change suddenly turn “B”. Serbia has a great team, doesnt really need naturalization, but imagine if the circumstances were severely different, how can you guarantee anything? Anyway this is why I think this discussion doesnt have much use, I dont like hypocrisy from people who use naturalized players themselves but only cry about others just for the sake of crying, but you aren’t one of those guys so I respect your opinion but politely disagree that’s all. Cheers to you aswell.

  9. #329
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    Turkey was without Larkin and a true play maker (Berk Ugurlu got injured before the tournament started) and without Wilbekin (played injured in the second game) the fifth best offensive team in the tournament with 87 Points average per game. Turkeys main Scorer (3 guys) Melih Mahmutoglu (one of the best shooters in Europe), Furkan Korkmaz and Ersan Ilyasova are very very potent scorers who can create their own shots. With Larkins penetratings it will be very easy for these guys to score and this will be the main task of Larkin. In crunch times Larkin, Korkmaz and Ilyasova can take the responsibility.

    I think the options will be like:

    1. scoring option Furkan Korkmaz
    2. Shane Larkin
    3. Ersan Ilyasova
    4. Cedi Osman

    This is without a doubt the best offensive team (except Canada) in the tournament. Open shots for them will open up much space for Larkin as well.

    The problem of Turkey was always the defense. Nearly all turkish player were/are horrible defenders except Ersan Ilyasova and Cedi Osman. Especially Furkan Korkmaz was a horrible really horrible defender but this season he turned to a bearable player on the defensive end in the nba. This is promising.

    The next question mark is our 21 year old nba draft ncaa prospect Omer Yurtseven. Can do everything on the offensive end. (shoots the three, very solid midranger, half hook etc.) who is definitely a power up against old man Semih Erden who was horrible during the wc. He is not a great defender but he is a real seven footer so he will give rebounding and better rim protection.

    In addition all the young prospects of turkey reached a age where they can contribute in Eurocup level. This gives better bench power.

    Premised all players come without an injury czechs are not a problem at all. The same goes for Greece without Giannis. With Giannis it should be a 50/50 thing. It means Greek defense and experience against turkish power and speed. Greece is in addition the team with the better chemistry since they have been playing for a long time together. Turkey wont have the time for a long preparation.

  10. #330

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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo13 View Post
    Thanks for point out that democracy index it is a pretty cool tool - and I will certainly not defend China or Russia...far, far from it.

    It does seem Turkey is above the line barely. Looks like the cutoff is 4.0 and Turkey is 4.09 on a 10 point scale. Not "way above the dictatorship line" by any means but technically you are correct (110th out of 167 countries). But I wouldn't consider my comment cheap rhetoric either.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

    Regardless - my apologies to go down that path, Turkey is a beautiful country and from an outsiders perspective with limited knowledge its regrettable is see Turkey's path away from democracy over the last decade, but this also hold true with far too many countries in this day of age.

    But I don't think any of us are really here to talk politics....so moving on.



    Back to the topics- what does Larkin do for Turkey's chances? How much of an improvement is this? What are your realistic expectations for Turkey vs Canada, Czechia and Greece? I suppose Canada is still too unknown to realistically consider.
    What Larkin does? Well even without Larkin Turkey has a pretty good team, let me first say that. You could see that in our match against the USA. But Turkey has no decent point guards AND no centers. We used to have NBA centers but lost them like I mentioned before. This fact makes Turkey vulnerable and inconsistent. Look, the Czech have a good team, but it’s nowhere near as competitive as ours can be. We just wasted our energy on the USA and didn’t overcome the mental letdown in time. We let the Czech talls (a position where we are limited) abuse us. But last year we played the Czech in a friendly tournament in Germany. It was the final. The Czech had Vesely and still lost to us double digits. We didnt even have a naturalized player here. This was even before Wilbekin. Larkin is the best player in Europe right now, and since we have nobodu close to his level in this position he adds a whole new dimension to this already decent team. Then there’s also some talented centers coming up, like Yurtseven who you might already see in Canada, and on the longer run guys like Bona and Sengun. There is no USA to drag us down in Canada, Turkey will win the first round group easy, and if Giannis doesn’t show up, will also be the heavy favorite against Greece. Canada if coming with a full squad however is still too much for Turkey, I give us 30% chance against you.... on a good day you never know. Without Larkin I give us only 5% chance, this is what Larkin adds to Turkey...

    As for the off topic Democracy index rating, it was actually ranked way above 5, it seems we dropped a bit. I know what must be the cause, but like you said I’m not here to discuss politics. We are a flawed democracy, sure, but certainly is not a dictatorship. Our president just enjoys cult status popularity from the poor regions that developed under his term, which makes him act spoilt. That’s all.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post

    I don't blame Turkey nor it's Turkey's fault. The rule is the problem. And it should be challenged rather soon than late. Which of course won't happen. Cheers.
    It cant be challenged because FIBA doesnt have the power and authority to tell sovereign countries whether one person is eligible for citizenship or not.What happens with this rule is a compromise.I've said it again FIFA which is 1000 times more powerful than FIBA doesnt have any rule regarding naturalised players at all!China uses Brazilians,Italy uses Argentines,Greece naturilised Zeca, a portugese player because they lacked defensive midfielders badly.

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    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    Larkin will not be a differencer maker against elite FIBA squads anyway - whatever spacing he gives and provides offensively, he will give up the same defensively due to his size. Smart teams with big guards will know for sure how to take him out of the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    It cant be challenged because FIBA doesnt have the power and authority to tell sovereign countries whether one person is eligible for citizenship or not.What happens with this rule is a compromise.I've said it again FIFA which is 1000 times more powerful than FIBA doesnt have any rule regarding naturalised players at all!China uses Brazilians,Italy uses Argentines,Greece naturilised Zeca, a portugese player because they lacked defensive midfielders badly.
    Of course it could be challenged. Now you have the situation that natural federations can block player availability for a country if he changes citizenship in his youth until he is 21 under FIBA rules. Just regulate it that way that a player registered in one country's federations youth systems can't ever play for another. If you want it you can of course let some special situations open (for example if a player is born in Germany and has Turk origins and starts playing basketball in Oldenburg - this could be treated as a special case if there are serious reasons.

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Larkin will not be a differencer maker against elite FIBA squads anyway - whatever spacing he gives and provides offensively, he will give up the same defensively due to his size. Smart teams with big guards will know for sure how to take him out of the game
    This is bs. It it was so it would be as you say in euroleague.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Larkin will not be a differencer maker against elite FIBA squads anyway - whatever spacing he gives and provides offensively, he will give up the same defensively due to his size. Smart teams with big guards will know for sure how to take him out of the game
    Okay this is true, Larkin wont make a difference against Kawhi Leonards and Kevin Durants... (if these show up) but how many supposed elite squads are there? Should I remind you what Campazzo did against Jokic, Bogdanovic, Bjelica. This is in your opinion an elite squad right? I mean Giannis got eliminated by Coboclo and Varejao. This snobbish elite squad nonsense doesn’t work in practice. Larkin is thrice the player Campazzo is and surely will make a difference against anyone except a full squad USA.

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    We mustnt forget bb is a team sport and Larkin is a pesky defender, really fast in the passing lanes. He wont stay in the paint and let others play post situations. Its true that Satoransky and Calathes are taller but its not an advantage because Larkin is five times faster. I saw 100 times how he stole the ball in front of other guards.

  17. #337
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    This is bs. It it was so it would be as you say in euroleague.
    sorry to burst to your bubble, but Euroleague basketball does not equal the best that FIBA teams can provide, not even close...all of the best FIBA players play in NBA and your regular playoff game in FIBA is of similar quality to NBA playoffs level of basketball. Hell, your own team almost beat Team USA in WC without the help of Larkins of this world if not for choking at the free throw line...

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    sorry to burst to your bubble, but Euroleague basketball does not equal the best that FIBA teams can provide, not even close...all of the best FIBA players play in NBA and your regular playoff game in FIBA is of similar quality to NBA playoffs level of basketball. Hell, your own team almost beat Team USA in WC without the help of Larkins of this world if not for choking at the free throw line...
    You havent burst anything. I have played enough active basketball myself and watched even longer. The first achievement is the qualification. Even this would be a tremendous achievement and on the way will be just one nba guard from Europe that I very like Satoransky. I acknowledge their chemistry but it remains a team with a bunch of low level players and Greece can just provide Euroleague guards.

    Canada with full power is a different story of course but will they be with full power? We dont know. If Turkey qualifies the outcome of the olympics is not very important. I dont expect to beat a full squad USA team. There will be some beatable and not beatable teams. No problem.

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furkan Korkmaz View Post
    Well you must hold into account you can never be sure when circumstances change There are many factors. The reason I spoke about people crying or jealousy for example wasn’t because of what guys like you say, but the hypocrisy I noticed in general. I have seen Greeks complain about Larkin for example, but in the meantime in their most popular sport, football, there is a Portuguese player at the starting 11. These same people also used to call France and USA “Africa” everytime they competed, but now suddenly, since they got an African immigrant turn into an NBA star, take a whole different stance. People will claim “A” but when the circumstances change suddenly turn “B”. Serbia has a great team, doesnt really need naturalization, but imagine if the circumstances were severely different, how can you guarantee anything? Anyway this is why I think this discussion doesnt have much use, I dont like hypocrisy from people who use naturalized players themselves but only cry about others just for the sake of crying, but you aren’t one of those guys so I respect your opinion but politely disagree that’s all. Cheers to you aswell.
    Or like how Turkey had a Brazilian football defender playing for them back in 00's. Would appreciate btw if you provide some evidence on these ''Africa'' name calling unless you bring them out of your head. And no people don't really complain about Larkin since Turkey have had rotating naturalized players in the past between Preldzic, Dixon and Wilbekin so it's not something new. They just see they can't produce a decent level PG so they take advantage of the rule. Nothing illegal or new here.
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    Wow.

    Am I seeing things, or this turkish dude just talked about jealousy? Are you serious bro? You can only be jealous about a particular player that actually belongs to his national team and can actually carry the flag of his own country. You can be jealous about such talents as Teodosič (in his prime), Bogdan Bogdanovič, Bojan Bogdanovič, Luka Dončič, Goran Dragič, Diamantidis, Porzingis, Gasol brothers, Rubio and a lot of other players that are actually supposed to play for their countries and are natural talents on the court. One will NEVER be jealous about players like Larkin in Turkey, Wilbekin in Turkey, McCalebb in Macedonia, Randolph in Slovenia and so on. Cause they were not born, raised or developed as players from particular nations. They were bought. Plain and clear. What does jealousy have to do here? People here are most definitely not jealous of the "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality, which you showed by throwing excuses that most of countries do this naturalization nonsense, so why can't we do it. With such big names like Larkin you just continue to spread this shit-trend even more.

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