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Thread: Group H: LTU-AUS-CAN-SEN

  1. #41
    Member Prancūzėlis_ZLD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paspalj View Post
    I get what you are trying to say and I have the utmost respect for Canada but patriotism has nothing to do with this. Look at the US for example, a country where patriotism is taken to the extreme, especially in the realm of sports. National Anthem before every game, special shoutouts to soldiers during games, ostracizing Kaepernick because of his decision to protest in this specific way that was considered disrespectful etc

    In addition to that, there is the whole "greatest country on earth" thing going on. I don't want to get into details but you get the idea.

    Despite all that, players casually reject their NT.
    I also think patriotism has an important part in skipping the World Cup or not. Yet, there is a major difference between Canada and USA (which is, as you stated, a very patriotic country) : almost everyone would agree to say that Team USA is the best basketball team, so they have nothing to prove in this regards. Especially after remaining undefeated for so long... Most people still think they will get gold medal even with current team (if this is not the case, then redeem team 2 will come).
    All that can't be said about Team Canada (but patriotism seems less important there)



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    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paspalj View Post
    I get what you are trying to say and I have the utmost respect for Canada but patriotism has nothing to do with this. Look at the US for example, a country where patriotism is taken to the extreme, especially in the realm of sports. National Anthem before every game, special shoutouts to soldiers during games, ostracizing Kaepernick because of his decision to protest in this specific way that was considered disrespectful etc

    In addition to that, there is the whole "greatest country on earth" thing going on. I don't want to get into details but you get the idea.
    just wondering, is this patriotism for the "show", or is it real? Like many other things in the NBA, it looks fake, it feels fake (I personally have no respect for it, especially for this veteran honoring stuff everywhere).

    It would explain these mass NBA withdrawals too, the patriotism is actually not there, or not that much, it's for the show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancūzėlis_ZLD View Post
    I also think patriotism has an important part in skipping the World Cup or not. Yet, there is a major difference between Canada and USA (which is, as you stated, a very patriotic country) : almost everyone would agree to say that Team USA is the best basketball team, so they have nothing to prove in this regards. Especially after remaining undefeated for so long... Most people still think they will get gold medal even with current team (if this is not the case, then redeem team 2 will come).
    All that can't be said about Team Canada (but patriotism seems less important there)
    Maybe you are correct. I don't really know and I don't have other counter-examples. Now that I think about it, when their pride gets hurt, then "patriotism" mode kicks in and we get the redeem teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    just wondering, is this patriotism for the "show", or is it real? Like many other things in the NBA, it looks fake, it feels fake (I personally have no respect for it, especially for this veteran honoring stuff everywhere).

    It would explain these mass NBA withdrawals too, the patriotism is actually not there, or not that much, it's for the show.
    It is definitely for the show. Big corporations don't care about any country or people. They just want to make money. The whole "freedom" things sells a lot here so that's what they need to do in order to sell their product. See what happened to Kaepernick.

    This "forced" patriotism in every aspect creates this culture that sometimes people just blindly will fall into.
    If you've watched "How to curb your enthusiasm" there is great scene where there is a party and in the presence of a soldier everybody greets him "Thank you for your service", "Thank you for your service" and when it's Larry's turn he just says "Hi" and everybody gets super upset that he didn't thank him for his service
    I consider myself very lucky to live on the east coast where things are way better than the south or the middle of the country. People can be very individualistic and short sighted in terms of governance.
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    You guys are getting way too deep in analyzing a very simple concept.
    It's all about this specific tournament. Nobody cares. They just dont. If you check the ratings for the gold medal games in 2010 and 2014 you will laugh your ass off. It's hard to ask players to be patriotic and care about a tournament when nobody else in your country does. There has never been a redeem team in this tournament. It's always B caliber teams and it will always be that or worse. It doesn't matter if they lose it for the next 20 years. It's not the Olympics. There pride is hurt and it leads to changes.

    I understand that this might be difficult for foreigners to understand but you guys have to trust me.
    It has nothing to do with patriotism or agents or anything. The tournament just does not have any value.

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    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paspalj View Post
    If you've watched "How to curb your enthusiasm" there is great scene where there is a party and in the presence of a soldier everybody greets him "Thank you for your service", "Thank you for your service" and when it's Larry's turn he just says "Hi" and everybody gets super upset that he didn't thank him for his service
    Haha, yes, I love that show, and Larry David in general. I was even expecting the vet to turn out in the end to be a cook or something like that in the army but at least we saw he was a proper soldier

    thanks for the insight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    You guys are getting way too deep in analyzing a very simple concept.
    It's all about this specific tournament. Nobody cares. They just dont. If you check the ratings for the gold medal games in 2010 and 2014 you will laugh your ass off. It's hard to ask players to be patriotic and care about a tournament when nobody else in your country does. There has never been a redeem team in this tournament. It's always B caliber teams and it will always be that or worse. It doesn't matter if they lose it for the next 20 years. It's not the Olympics. There pride is hurt and it leads to changes.

    I understand that this might be difficult for foreigners to understand but you guys have to trust me.
    It has nothing to do with patriotism or agents or anything. The tournament just does not have any value.
    I agree with you but the idea that the WC is "inferior" to the Olympics is created by the surroundings. People in general will watch what they are told to watch.

    Look at the women's soccer WC for example. It was a great success. Watched by 14 million people. (The previous WC final had about 25 million).
    In contrast 900,000 watched the basketball WC final.

    But you will say "Soccer is much more popular in general so absolute numbers don't count" and you will be correct. So we can see the corresponding Olympics ratings.
    1.38 million for the women's soccer, 11.7 million for men's basketball.

    I understand that there are major differences between the sports and the number of followers. I also understand that there might be deviation due to rules (for example, in mens soccer in the olympics only 2 players over 23 are allowed so nobody cares). In addition, we should take into consideration that during the Olympics there are a bunch of other events happening at the same exact time so viewing will be "dispersed".

    You reasoning is correct, but I can't shake this feeling that the NBA is just cherry picking. "Oh man, we can't ignore ALL international competitions, let's just pick one and say it's important."

    But the idea is that somebody decided that the Olympics are more prestigious and the NBA players followed. That doesn't hold in general because for example we saw that it's not the case for women's soccer. Because that's what they were told. Naturally, people won't care for a tournament that doesn't feature their best players.

    Also may I remind you that it was the loss of a world championship (2002) that lead to all the changes in Team USA, not the Olympics.
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    I disagree about a lot here.
    It wasn't the 2002 loss that changed things it was 2004. If it was '02 then the '04 team would have been the A team which it clearly wasn't. The Redeem team '08 was to redeem '04. Further evidence that it wasn't '02 loss was that the following Worlds tournament again was a young B team and not an A team.

    You're also wrong about the people being told what to watch tournament. The Olympic Gold medal has value, meaning and tradition. You can't manufacture that. Like I've said before if the Olympics didn't exist and the Worlds was the only option you still wouldn't see the top US players participating.

    The US women soccer World Cup was popular for two main reasons. First it is the premier tournament and not secondary like the Fiba Worlds and it also popular among both genders.

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    A Ryder Cup style tournament would have a better shot of gaining interest in the US in my opinion. If it were to replace this tournament and a new concept from scratch doesn't have the disadvantage of carrying the historical baggage of being a second class event. I mean even when NBA players were restricted and it was only collegians you still got the B collegiate team.

    Ryder Cup style,
    USA vs Europe in a best of 5 or 7 series. This would be more competitive and would be a hit in my opinion.

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    Although I was young back then, I do think that the loss of the WC on home soil was what shook things up. The idea was to build a national team around the (then) young players. It didn't pan out in 2004, and in 2006 (where the US was the heavy favorite) there was a major upset. So in 2008, built around players from 2004 and small additions along the way (Paul, Howard in 2006) and Kobe in 2008 they were able to reclaim their title. I still think that it's the chemistry that lifted the US team over Spain in 2008. The program was successful.

    Anyway, maybe you are correct. You are from the US so you should know better. I'm just going with what I noticed around the internet.
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    2002 was important because it was the first time NBA players lost but 2004 hit home because it was the Olympics.

    2004 team was business as usual trying to attract the top players but perceived security concerns led to a lot of A players refusing to participate. And you ended up basically with
    a B caliber team poorly constructed and the worst NBA USA Olympic team ever.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Dtown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paspalj View Post
    Although I was young back then, I do think that the loss of the WC on home soil was what shook things up. The idea was to build a national team around the (then) young players. It didn't pan out in 2004, and in 2006 (where the US was the heavy favorite) there was a major upset. So in 2008, built around players from 2004 and small additions along the way (Paul, Howard in 2006) and Kobe in 2008 they were able to reclaim their title. I still think that it's the chemistry that lifted the US team over Spain in 2008. The program was successful.

    Anyway, maybe you are correct. You are from the US so you should know better. I'm just going with what I noticed around the internet.
    usagre's right in that while 2002 raised eyebrows no one really cared about that loss despite the 6th place finish. Calls for reform didn't happen until after 2004. Even the 2006 team which was the first of the new system was designed as the warm up for the Redeem Team in 2008.

    Part of the reason the Olympics became the event for Basketball was the Cold War. The Olympics often acted as a proxy war for the USA and USSR and Basketball just happened to be a sport both nations were good at. High stakes, high pressure, high number of people watching creates history, and creates importance.
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    Great point by Dtown. The Cold War atmosphere was an enormous factor. It was an alternative way to settle things. That's why '72 and '88 hurt. Not only the loss but who it was to. In today's world there isn't really a comp for that.

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    I would even argue that the 2000 semifinal close win against Lithuania raised more eyebrows than the '02 Worlds losses.
    It was the Olympics and the team was a lot stronger. A B+ or A- type team that I define this way because about 5 of its players were good enough to make the A team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    I would even argue that the 2000 semifinal close win against Lithuania raised more eyebrows than the '02 Worlds losses.
    It was the Olympics and the team was a lot stronger. A B+ or A- type team that I define this way because about 5 of its players were good enough to make the A team.
    And so Lithuania 2000 was not A-level, maybe it was B or B + team, and its possible candidates could be: Ilgauskas, traumatized Macijauskas, Sabonis and Karnisovas still have not finished their sports career.
    If these players had been in the game, they would have probably won the Olympic gold medals, because Lithuania had no other gold medal competitors except the USA.

    But the sport is so interesting that nothing is known in advance.

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    Mitch Creek will replace the injured Cooks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G&B View Post
    And so Lithuania 2000 was not A-level, maybe it was B or B + team, and its possible candidates could be: Ilgauskas, traumatized Macijauskas, Sabonis and Karnisovas still have not finished their sports career.
    If these players had been in the game, they would have probably won the Olympic gold medals, because Lithuania had no other gold medal competitors except the USA.

    But the sport is so interesting that nothing is known in advance.
    I don't know what means traumatized, but Macas blossomed later. In 2000 he was nowhere close to make the team


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    Watching the Australia vs. Canada friendly game right now and, man, do these teams need more time to get ready! Canada is sad to watch with a bunch of lesser-known players and Kevin Pangos as a standout in the first quarter. But Aussies really need to get their act together. At times it looks like they're playing without a coach, with Mills breaking plays and pulling up for three with no one to chase for the rebound; and him, Bogut and Ingles passing the ball into the stands. You know these guys are better than that, but for the moment they're getting their asses handed to them by Canada's C team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
    Watching the Australia vs. Canada friendly game right now and, man, do these teams need more time to get ready! Canada is sad to watch with a bunch of lesser-known players and Kevin Pangos as a standout in the first quarter. But Aussies really need to get their act together. At times it looks like they're playing without a coach, with Mills breaking plays and pulling up for three with no one to chase for the rebound; and him, Bogut and Ingles passing the ball into the stands. You know these guys are better than that, but for the moment they're getting their asses handed to them by Canada's C team.
    True, watched first half now, both teams relies too much on random offensive plays, defense quite shaky


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    I don't think Australia are going to learn what defence is in the next few games. With Lithuania already doing it well against Serbia, Australia are going to struggle against Lithuania.

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    Does anyone know what is going on with Senegal?
    Their 12-man roster has 2 guards and something like 9-10 forwards/centers over 2.05m

    Also, is Dieng injured?

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