Originally posted by bballcrazy
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Group E: USA-TUR-CZE-JAP
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FENERBAHÇE--- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019, 2020 Turkish Basketball Cup Champion ---
--- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2022 Turkish Basketball League Champion ---
--- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
--- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---
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Originally posted by Tevfik1907 View PostIf NBA european players like Jokic, Giannis, Doncic are in the same team, they have a slight chance, but USA A Team would still win the majority.
On paper USA are the favorites but Serbia look like the best team in this tournament to me.
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Originally posted by Deschain View PostI'm sorry, but this game goes to show how primitive the NBA game has become.
Don't get me wrong, there's an immense gap in terms of talent between top 20-25 USA players and the best of the international teams barring a few exceptions. And the game in NBA have evolved accordingly. Unlayered, uninteresting mockery of a game with a vulgar prioritization of player ability. Which could be only be a niche interest for me. Nonetheless, I understand the lack of necessity in the NBA to compose teams like the Europeans and to an extent Latin Americans do. When USA doesn't bring at least 6-7 of their best players. Their understanding of the game gets awfully exposed. Because they cannot steamroll opponents with raw talent and physical superiority alone.
Turkey is not the most organized nor the most clever team in Europe. Yet, being forged by the European understanding of the game, a few simple tricks from the Euroball book was enough to dazzle team USA. What I'm saying is, with a very high level of confidence, against a slightly above average European defense Turkey would never be able to get those buckets after easy inbound plays, threes after simple curl or horns plays or those easy layups (those by Mahmutoğlu, for example). Not being able to destroy Turkey's zone defense or less-than-impressive perimeter play should be alarming for team USA.
Other then Kemba and maybe Mitchell, the US team has a huge lack of explosiveness problem, which they capitalized on in the last decade. Yes, the pieces are good and they might just suffice to win the gold.
If they are not willing to abide by the European understanding of the game, it looks like it's going to be a bit tough for them.
As a Turk, this goes to my special list of games that crushed my hopes and dreams just above,
2002 WC Brazil - Turkey (Marcelo Machado)
2009 EC Greece - Turkey (Ilyasova not being able to outrun Big Sofo)
2011 Real Madrid - Efes (Bootsy Thornton fouling Chacho for 3 free throws to lose the game in overtime)
2016 CSKA - Fener (A pretty similar game to today's USA-TR game)
Other than that, with Brazil defeating Greece, we can still advance by dramatically losing to Greece and blowing Brazil out of the water. Which should not be impossible.
P.S. Who else likes Tuncer and gets Teodosic vibes from him? He was decent with Efes last season and he seems fine with the NT. Can't recall a Turkish player with better court vision.
I think greece will win.Republic of FENERBAHÇE
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Originally posted by Deschain View PostI'm sorry, but this game goes to show how primitive the NBA game has become.
Don't get me wrong, there's an immense gap in terms of talent between top 20-25 USA players and the best of the international teams barring a few exceptions. And the game in NBA have evolved accordingly. Unlayered, uninteresting mockery of a game with a vulgar prioritization of player ability. Which could be only be a niche interest for me. Nonetheless, I understand the lack of necessity in the NBA to compose teams like the Europeans and to an extent Latin Americans do. When USA doesn't bring at least 6-7 of their best players. Their understanding of the game gets awfully exposed. Because they cannot steamroll opponents with raw talent and physical superiority alone.
Turkey is not the most organized nor the most clever team in Europe. Yet, being forged by the European understanding of the game, a few simple tricks from the Euroball book was enough to dazzle team USA. What I'm saying is, with a very high level of confidence, against a slightly above average European defense Turkey would never be able to get those buckets after easy inbound plays, threes after simple curl or horns plays or those easy layups (those by Mahmutoğlu, for example). Not being able to destroy Turkey's zone defense or less-than-impressive perimeter play should be alarming for team USA.
Other then Kemba and maybe Mitchell, the US team has a huge lack of explosiveness problem, which they capitalized on in the last decade. Yes, the pieces are good and they might just suffice to win the gold.
If they are not willing to abide by the European understanding of the game, it looks like it's going to be a bit tough for them.
That said, I wouldn't be so quick to point out the primitiveness of American play without acknowledging the structural issues with how US players are developed. Unlike most European countries, we don't have a uniform, singular way in which we groom our players. Most of our players go through their entire basketball lives (high school, AAU, college, pros) without ever receiving the sort of fundamental team instruction that our European/Argentine counterparts get. As a result, a premium is placed on individual skill rather than team functionality. Some college coaches like Gonzaga's Mark Few, Villanova's Jay Wright and Michigan's ex coach John Beilein are masters at implementing team concepts, but once their players graduate and move on to the NBA, they either wash out of the league or regress because their skills don't translate.
So there's the issue with player development, but there's also problems with how our NT is selected and trained. Most NTs have players who've been apart of their national program for years...from junior to the senior level, as the case with Spain, Australia, Serbia etc. That's a build-in chemistry that no US team can create since our players are selected from a pool and thrown together, with often just weeks to prepare. Our talent and depth is such that usually this isn't an issue, but this 2019 team doesn't have nearly the acumen, experience or skill of previous teams, so the struggles become more apparent. Coach K took the approach of keeping the offensive sets as simple as possible and concentrated on defense...pick & roll, rotations, pressure, def. rebounding--defense has always been our vulnerability against teams that don't turn the ball over and dictate pace.
The 2008 US team wasn't "primitive" by any stretch. That team had some of the finest players of its generation, but they didn't win gold by playing selfish, iso-basketball...from 2006-2008, they learned and adjusted as a unit to the FIBA style because they understood they needed to. Unfortunately, we may never see that level of commitment and urgency again with the current conventions as they are.Last edited by Federoy; 09-04-2019, 03:53 AM.
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Originally posted by Jon_Koncak View PostSome more pessimistic thoughts about USA.I've always felt that after 2004 in order to compete until the end or win against any version of team USA you had to play an almost perfect game.This is the first time it didnt feel that way.Dont get me wrong Turkey played fine but it didnt feel to me like they pushed themselves to the limits of their abilities to do it.They ran their sets,got to their spots and the pressure by USA was minimal the whole game.Hell that guy Tuncer who is a scrub on european level had no problem bringing up the ball and setting up his teamates as if it was a Balisekir-Giazantep game for turkish league.Scrubs like him should be eaten alive by US guards and that's not the case.It's just 2004 all over again.
This team is at the level of the 2010 team, but this time they don't have a KD-type player to bail them out.
Another problem is that other contenders are now much better than in 2010, when most of the NBA stars didn't play.
Still, from what I have seen so far, wouldn't put any other team besides Serbia above the USA.Bronze Medal - IBN 2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Prediction Game
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USA is still producing the overwhelming majority of basketball talent. Any talk about some kind of crisis is nonsense.
This performances only show that it might not be possible to win this tournaments with the D-team. That's all.Bronze Medal - IBN 2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Prediction Game
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I have cooled down a little bit after yesterday. But I am still really mad at people tweeting to Cedi to quit,retire etc. I hate it when our soccer fans become basketball professionals all of a sudden when there is a tournament.
Yesterday gave me hope to be honest. I think Czhechia game is much more scarier than the possible Greece and Brasil games even though Chezchs are much weaker team. It will be important to see how the team handles the hearthbreak. They can play frustrated and make more mistakes or they can get fired up and we can have a blowout. Especially how Cedi plays will determine the game. I am hoping he would use the negative comments as motivation instead of getting deprassed which is also a possibility sadly considering the hateful tweets he is getting.
If we survive next game and pass to the second round, I believe we will play with more confidence and can beat both Brazil and Greece. At this point assuming US won against both a win against Brazil only might be enough as well. We definetely have a high chance for quarterfinals now. Even if we dont, even if we lost to Czechs as well my biggest wish right now is that the hateful messages to stop. Instead of blaming Cedi or Doğuş we should blame the coaches or federation as free throws have always been our biggest problem and there is nothing we are doing about that. Im 26 and watching national teams for 20 years and dont remember a single game where we did good from the line and it wasnt an issue.
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Originally posted by Federoy View PostI agree to a large extent. American players have become prisoners of a system that emphasizes individual strengths over team play. It's not entirely their fault. It's the way the NBA has evolved over the past 25 years as the league has become marketed more and more towards its stars and away from the nuances of the game. More NBA coaches have taken steps to incorporate continuity principles within their sets (ironically, Popavich has been a leader in that area), but the league still woefully trails the upper end of European basketball.
That said, I wouldn't be so quick to point out the primitiveness of American play without acknowledging the structural issues with how US players are developed. Unlike most European countries, we don't have a uniform, singular way in which we groom our players. Most of our players go through their entire basketball lives (high school, AAU, college, pros) without ever receiving the sort of fundamental team instruction that our European/Argentine counterparts get. As a result, a premium is placed on individual skill rather than team functionality. Some college coaches like Gonzaga's Mark Few, Villanova's Jay Wright and Michigan's ex coach John Beilein are masters at implementing team concepts, but once their players graduate and move on to the NBA, they either wash out of the league or regress because their skills don't translate.
So there's the issue with player development, but there's also problems with how our NT is selected and trained. Most NTs have players who've been apart of their national program for years...from junior to the senior level, as the case with Spain, Australia, Serbia etc. That's a build-in chemistry that no US team can create since our players are selected from a pool and thrown together, with often just weeks to prepare. Our talent and depth is such that usually this isn't an issue, but this 2019 team doesn't have nearly the acumen, experience or skill of previous teams, so the struggles become more apparent. Coach K took the approach of keeping the offensive sets as simple as possible and concentrated on defense...pick & roll, rotations, pressure, def. rebounding--defense has always been our vulnerability against teams that don't turn the ball over and dictate pace.
The 2008 US team wasn't "primitive" by any stretch. That team had some of the finest players of its generation, but they didn't win gold by playing selfish, iso-basketball...from 2006-2008, they learned and adjusted as a unit to the FIBA style because they understood they needed to. Unfortunately, we may never see that level of commitment and urgency again with the current conventions as they are.
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I have cooled down a little bit after yesterday. But I am still really mad at Doğuş and Cedi. Their national team career must come to the end. I hate them. They stole our historic victory that will be spoken for decades. They stole our quarter final. They stole our hope to be in Olympics. They didnt miss these free throws cos they are bad free throw shooters, missed cos they couldnt handle the pressure of beating usa. Loser mentality, inferior complex. They shouldnt be in the national team anymore.Republic of FENERBAHÇE
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Originally posted by iskoch View PostI have cooled down a little bit after yesterday. But I am still really mad at Doğuş and Cedi. Their national team career must come to the end. I hate them. They stole our historic victory that will be spoken for decades. They stole our quarter final. They stole our hope to be in Olympics. They didnt miss these free throws cos they are bad free throw shooters, missed cos they couldnt handle the pressure of beating usa. Loser mentality, inferior complex. They shouldnt be in the national team anymore.
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Originally posted by vivo View PostCzechs are a worse team than us. If we lose it will be because we couldn't shake off USA loss for two days, which is unlikely
I was thinking the same back then and it backfired so much that it still hurts.
even if Vesely was there and now he is not I would still be very careful.
7 of their players play together all year long + Satoransky + Schilb + Balvin"Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,
heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "
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Originally posted by iskoch View PostWhy i shouldnt?
I also don't understand our people. Nobody got this angry to Bogdanovic when Fener lost in the finals because he didnt get the easy rebound. When it is a Turkish guy why are we directly burning them at stakes.
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