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Thread: Group E: USA-TUR-CZE-JAP

  1. #321
    Senior Member Deschain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Federoy View Post
    I agree to a large extent. American players have become prisoners of a system that emphasizes individual strengths over team play. It's not entirely their fault. It's the way the NBA has evolved over the past 25 years as the league has become marketed more and more towards its stars and away from the nuances of the game. More NBA coaches have taken steps to incorporate continuity principles within their sets (ironically, Popavich has been a leader in that area), but the league still woefully trails the upper end of European basketball.

    That said, I wouldn't be so quick to point out the primitiveness of American play without acknowledging the structural issues with how US players are developed. Unlike most European countries, we don't have a uniform, singular way in which we groom our players. Most of our players go through their entire basketball lives (high school, AAU, college, pros) without ever receiving the sort of fundamental team instruction that our European/Argentine counterparts get. As a result, a premium is placed on individual skill rather than team functionality. Some college coaches like Gonzaga's Mark Few, Villanova's Jay Wright and Michigan's ex coach John Beilein are masters at implementing team concepts, but once their players graduate and move on to the NBA, they either wash out of the league or regress because their skills don't translate.

    So there's the issue with player development, but there's also problems with how our NT is selected and trained. Most NTs have players who've been apart of their national program for years...from junior to the senior level, as the case with Spain, Australia, Serbia etc. That's a build-in chemistry that no US team can create since our players are selected from a pool and thrown together, with often just weeks to prepare. Our talent and depth is such that usually this isn't an issue, but this 2019 team doesn't have nearly the acumen, experience or skill of previous teams, so the struggles become more apparent. Coach K took the approach of keeping the offensive sets as simple as possible and concentrated on defense...pick & roll, rotations, pressure, def. rebounding--defense has always been our vulnerability against teams that don't turn the ball over and dictate pace.

    The 2008 US team wasn't "primitive" by any stretch. That team had some of the finest players of its generation, but they didn't win gold by playing selfish, iso-basketball...from 2006-2008, they learned and adjusted as a unit to the FIBA style because they understood they needed to. Unfortunately, we may never see that level of commitment and urgency again with the current conventions as they are.
    Primitive might have been an overstatement. "Not as complex and complicated as the game in Europe" could have been better.
    But I think a lot has changed in the last decade. Celtics and Lakers could employ some advanced tactics in the Kobe-Gasol era. Popovich and Spurs has always maintained a level of complexity. Dirk and Mavericks Nash and Suns had a clear gameplan. Pistons had a great core and a recipe for success. Jazz had Sloan and also a fine core. There were many teams playing with different styles back then and this in turn necessitated the development of counter strategies. That's why the team(2008 and 2012) composed of players matured in such an era could understand what's going on and excel at a different style of game (After they realized that they had needed to do so.). Still, both in 2008 and 2012 Spain got very close to defeating the US because they could play the half court game much better than US did and a considerable amount of talent and IQ in the team.

    The part I bolded out is absolutely true and might be the primary factor why NBA is currently what it is. From my point of view, this has something to with the draft and the college system in place in the US in which the NBA teams can only interfere too late in the player development but my NBA knowledge is not deep enough to come into further conclusions.

    On a side note, I did not mean team USA is playing selfishly and I don't think they ever did. I just observe that, their idea of being a team and employing tactics seem quite shallow compared to what I'm used to see in Europe.
    They can still win gold like this. But they won't be playing well.


    Quote Originally Posted by iskoch View Post
    Why u are so sure that usa will beat greece?
    I think greece will win.
    I'm not. But Greece seems to be lacking shooters might have problems strecthing the floor and I don't think they are going to play against the USA differently than Turkey did. Besides I'm not sure if they can do zone as well as we did. Can't see uncle Bourousis playing Semih Erden levels of D.
    It's just the more likely scenario to see the US prevail.
    poof

  2. #322
    Senior Member Cuneyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    In what world is Jan Vesely a 80-90% FT shooter. He did well the last season around 75% which is around 10% improvement on his career average but bear in mind that was in games without a lot of pressure. We all know that in higher stakes he usually chokes there at the line. Also, he was never a terrible FT shooter just an inconsistent one that gets rattled at the line in big moments.
    Unfortunately you have no idea what you are talking about. Vesely’s FT percentages over the last 5 years in Euroleague:

    2014-15 %49
    2015-16 %45
    2016-2017 % 56
    2017-2018 %71
    2018-2019 %79

    Also have a look at this:
    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/tradema...ow-shooters/2/

  3. #323
    Member ZaliaBalta's Avatar
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    I have that strange feeling that czechs are going to beat Turkey tomorrow. I mean, would it even be a surprise? Not for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaliaBalta View Post
    I have that strange feeling that czechs are going to beat Turkey tomorrow. I mean, would it even be a surprise? Not for me.
    Why not?

  5. #325
    Senior Member Valexander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaliaBalta View Post
    I have that strange feeling that czechs are going to beat Turkey tomorrow. I mean, would it even be a surprise? Not for me.
    If your feeling is strange, then why not a surprise?

  6. #326
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaliaBalta View Post
    I have that strange feeling that czechs are going to beat Turkey tomorrow. I mean, would it even be a surprise? Not for me.
    Why not? Anything is possible in these one-game elimination format. We almost beat USA, and Czechs can beat us too if they shoot good tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valexander View Post
    If your feeling is strange, then why not a surprise?
    Paradox
    FENERBAHÇE BASKETBALL
    --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019 Turkish Cup Champion ---
    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 TBL Champion ---
    --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
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  7. #327
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    The turkish team was the most underrated team before the wc because of the prep games and it still is because everyone saw 0/4 fts and this weird loss. Many guys think that the team is totally outfocussed. Its really funny though. Even our turks are more than sceptical even against japan i read people who had written japan can win. hahahahahahha

    I dont give a shit about this tournament. I just want turkey to end up among the best 8 to break this curse to land always in the thoughest groups. Even if it is radical we must cut our bigs and use the young ones even though they mess up a tournament.

  8. #328
    Senior Member Modis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaliaBalta View Post
    I have that strange feeling that czechs are going to beat Turkey tomorrow. I mean, would it even be a surprise? Not for me.
    No. Turkey now is gonna use their good performance against USA as motivation to now completely dismantle this Czech team.
    Lithuania

    Olympic Games: Bronze 1992-1996-2000.
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  9. #329
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    Turkey is some kind of Italy light. Of course they can outrun teams and beat everyone on a good shooting day but at this kind of tournament I am sceptical that this can work on any powerhouse.

    This was a great game against USA, epic, fantastic and my deepest respect to it. But I think that also Turks will recognize that this kind of basketball can't work out against e.g. Lithuania.

    Furthermore I understand why Turks chose Wilbekin because he perfectly fits in this concept but if they want to do something really big the next years with Cedi and Furkan they simply have to change their philosophy and this is something which usually takes something what in my impression Turks don't want their federation to give - time. You cannot win tournaments with run and gun. I cannot remember one single case.* Everyone is speaking here about "bigs are trash", "our young bigs need to play", okay I am always a fan of putting children into the cold water but at first you need an organized true playmaker in combination with this big. Nikola Milutinov kind bigs would be useless with Wilbekin-kind score-first point guards.

    They are very fun to watch this year and I wish them good luck but somehow to me the approach is a little unrealistic in short term.

    For the Czech match I'm torn between. My feeling says Turkey now but I think it will be a very hard game of nerves - Sarica's boys shouldn't underestimate this hard working Czech Team.

    *of course USA excluded.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    Turkey is some kind of Italy light. Of course they can outrun teams and beat everyone on a good shooting day but at this kind of tournament I am sceptical that this can work on any powerhouse.

    This was a great game against USA, epic, fantastic and my deepest respect to it. But I think that also Turks will recognize that this kind of basketball can't work out against e.g. Lithuania.

    Furthermore I understand why Turks chose Wilbekin because he perfectly fits in this concept but if they want to do something really big the next years with Cedi and Furkan they simply have to change their philosophy and this is something which usually takes something what in my impression Turks don't want their federation to give - time. You cannot win tournaments with run and gun. I cannot remember one single case.
    The basketball in Europe will change. It will adapt to nbas pace and space basketball. Sarica knows that and Wilbekin is out of the nba the perfect fit. He can shoot and is fast and has ok playmaking abilities. You can mess with that kind of basketball if you cant implement it properly. It will cause an unimaginable number of turnover but your speed gives you much advantage. Nowadays your forwards also have to be able to share the ball. 3 and D guys are not enough anymore. We have the right guys for that kind of game. Wilbekin, korkmaz, ilyasova can release the ball very fast.

    What the team needs for the future is a rim protector with fast legs for switches and some deepness in the roster. The problem right now is that most of our role player never experienced serious minutes.

  11. #331
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    Basketball has already changed but international tournaments won't (or let's say in a lesser extent). If you beat Lithuania with run and gun in 40min. in a knock out game in the next 10 years I will come personally to Istanbul to pay you a beer or two.

    Also now it's visible that the most serious contenders play set game. This will stay the same forever until rules are adapted.

    And for the rim protector with fast legs - if you know on which tree such kind of players grow you can become rich for sure - it's not like all teams wouldn't need this kind of player.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katastroika View Post
    Basketball has already changed but international tournaments won't (or let's say in a lesser extent). If you beat Lithuania with run and gun in 40min. in a knock out game in the next 10 years I will come personally to Istanbul to pay you a beer or two.

    Also now it's visible that the most serious contenders play set game. This will stay the same forever until rules are adapted.
    Well it wont be to that extend but getting shorter and faster for a certain time is a big weapon. You can watch the qualifier game for example turkey vs ukraine in turkey. Of course you must have the guys for such a game.

    Turkey cant play a set game because of the bigs and the team is not used to play with each other. They will choke when they play slowly and the bigs are trash.

  13. #333
    Senior Member iskoch's Avatar
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    Go Czech Rep. Send these desperate losers to their mother's knee to cry.
    Last edited by iskoch; 09-05-2019 at 08:28 AM.
    Republic of FENERBAHÇE

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by iskoch View Post
    Go Czech Rep. Send these desperate losers to their mother's knee to cry.
    Wow, why such hate towards your own team?

  15. #335
    Senior Member iskoch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrRager View Post
    Wow, why such hate towards your own team?
    Cos they are losers and dont deserve to be there.

    Defeat against Greece in 2009 and that one against USA unforgetable 2 games and the most humiliating defeats in turkish bball history.

    A team that got such an emberrassing defeat shouldnt be there anymore.
    Republic of FENERBAHÇE

  16. #336
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iskoch View Post
    Cos they are losers and dont deserve to be there.

    Defeat against Greece in 2009 and that one against USA unforgetable 2 games and the most humiliating defeats in turkish bball history.

    A team that got such an emberrassing defeat shouldnt be there anymore.
    You can simply turn off your TV, you know. 9 seconds of idiocy and missed free throws don't diminish 44 minutes of effort to nothing.

    Czechia starts as expected, aggressive and forces us to bad decisions. We should get better as game continues.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  17. #337
    Senior Member iskoch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    You can simply turn off your TV, you know. 9 seconds of idiocy and missed free throws don't diminish 44 minutes of effort to nothing.

    Czechia starts as expected, aggressive and forces us to bad decisions. We should get better as game continues.
    Did.

    They lost QF and hope to be in Olympics in that 9 secs.

    I watch 3-4 games everyday, watching this one too as the most exciting one atm.
    Republic of FENERBAHÇE

  18. #338
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    Effort is 0, defense is 0, creation in the offense is 0, we really should switch off the tv all together. No need to be excited in the following tournaments.

  19. #339
    Senior Member fasoulaki's Avatar
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    Its called the post-victory-over-US-stress syndrom. You loose focus and concentration and therefore give away the next game.
    Last edited by fasoulaki; 09-05-2019 at 09:51 AM.

  20. #340
    Senior Member SaliH's Avatar
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    And after that some people here get upset when Iskoch says that those guys are a bunch of female genitals with a loser mentality that will never achieve anything.
    Yaşa Mustafa Kemal Paşa yaşa;
    Adın yazılacak mücevher taşa.

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